What religion were our founding fathers worshipping?

[glockmail]

.....It's pretty obvious why you used multiple quotations in each sentence... .....

Prove it.

 

[LOki]

Obviously you've never been to a track meet or participated in one, have you?

Not one where I lost.

The Founders speak for themselves, with my comments in brackets:

"Except the Lord build the house, They labor in vain who build it." "I firmly believe this." Benjamin Franklin, 1787, Constitutional Convention
[A deist would not refer to god as “The Lord”, an obvious reference to Jesus.]

The obvious reference is to God (but not necessarily YOUR God, Glockmail). You say "Jesus" because Jesus is YOUR "Lord" and God; this does not have to be true for everyone, including Benjamin Franklin.

The Founders speak for themselves, with my comments in brackets:

"The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and His Apostles.... This is genuine Christianity and to this we owe our free constitutions of government." Noah Webster [A deist would never mention Christ.]

First, you have previously established that in your opinion, Noah Webster is not one of our Founding Fathers; I have no idea why you bring him up. Secondly, I have no idea where it's been asserted that Webster was a Deist; and finally, the kind of "Chistianity" that Deists find to be "genuine" and acceptable is that which follows the moral and philisophical precepts of Jesus Christ the human being, not Jesus Christ the deity.

The Founders speak for themselves, with my comments in brackets:

"Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever." President Thomas Jefferson [A deist would not believe that a “connection” with God is possible.]

First, you deny the patently clear "connection" established by God creating the universe, and the gift of liberty appurtenant to that creation. Secondly, you are just wrong that Deists believe that connection to God is impossible--your assertion is absolutely baseless.

The Founders speak for themselves, with my comments in brackets:

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers. And it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest, of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." First Chief Justice of Supreme Court John Jay [A deist would not believe that Providence intervenes to a Christian people.]

First, you have previously established that in your opinion, John Jay is not one of our Founding Fathers; I have no idea why you bring him up. Secondly, I have no idea where it's been asserteded that Jay was a Deist; thirdly, "Providence" does not have to intervene to have an effect on human interests, it merely has to exist; and finally, despite this fabricated notion of yours that Deists believe God cannot influence His Creation, many Deists believe that God actually has, and does, intervene in His Creation--they just don't believe in the hearsay stories told by other about it.

The Founders speak for themselves, with my comments in brackets:

"We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." President James Madison [A deist would not subscribe to the Ten Commandments, which requires worship to God.]

You would think that the James Madison Center would have a record of this important quote. There is no evidnece, of course, that James Madison said this. Dave Barton is a fraud.

The Founders speak for themselves, with my comments in brackets:

"If we make religion our business, God will make it our blessedness." John Adams [Religion requires a personal relationship with God, something a deist believes is impossible.]

For Christians, religion requires a personal relationship with God; Deists don't beleive this. Your error is in attempting to impose your Christion religious paradigm on another religion. And the expected result of your egregious errors in logic and fact? FAIL!

The Founders speak for themselves, with my comments in brackets:

"Let the children...be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education. The great enemy of the salvation of man, in my opinion, never invented a more effectual means of extirpating [removing] Christianity from the world than by persuading mankind that it was improper to read the Bible at schools." Benjamin Rush [A deist would not consider Christianity essential to education.]

As previously explained, Deists have an entirely different view regarding religion (that is not the fucking same as yours, Glockmail), and the important role (to them, not you) of Christ in history. With their (not your) point of view in mind, it is patently obvious that for the Deist, the teachings of Christ are essential to education.

The Founders speak for themselves, with my comments in brackets:

"It is no slight testimonial, both to the merit and worth of Christianity, that in all ages since its promulgation the great mass of those who have risen to eminence by their profound wisdom and integrity have recognized and reverenced Jesus of Nazareth as the Son of the living God." President John Quincy Adams [A deist would never have reverence for Jesus.]

You're just wrong that Deists would not have reverence for Jesus, they do; but to the extent that their reverence would not be based on Christs divinity--based upon what they would consider to be hearsay--you could be right. But, I'm just about sure you're just as wrong now as you usually are.

The Founders speak for themselves, with my comments in brackets:

“All chaplains are to perform divine service tomorrow, and on every succeeding Sunday…. The commander in chief expects an exact compliance with this order, and that it be observed in future as an invariable rule of practice—and every neglect will be considered not only a breach of orders, but a disregard to decency, virtue and religion.” Head-Quarters, Middle Brook, June 28, 1777. [A deist would never require worship and prayers.]

Again, Glockmail, you attempt to enforce your intolerant Christian paradigm on Deists. This quote only asserts Washington's respect for freedom of religion, and his recognition that Christians might very likely be under his command. Note that , consistent with the beleifs of Deism, Washington didn't make attendance to these services compulsory; he didn't order his troops to worship or pray--he just ordered the Chaplains to not be neglectful of their jobs.

 

[glockmail]

Not one where I lost. .....

Just all of them.

 

[glockmail]

Wow Alley’s unbiased, huh?

According to Robert S. Alley, the following quote has been falsely attributed to Madison:

We have staked the entire future of the American civilization not upon the power of government, but upon the capacity of the individual to govern himself, to control himself and sustain himself according to the Ten Commandments of God.

Americans United and the cause of church-state separation lost a good friend this week.
On Aug. 14, Robert S. Alley died in Richmond, Va. Alley, a humanities professor emeritus at the University of Richmond, was a lifelong advocate of religious liberty and a staunch supporter of Americans United.

Robert S. Alley: Friend Of Freedom | The Wall of Separation

 

[Shogun]

Prove it.

trust me, dude. THIS ENTIRE THREAD proves it!

 

[Shogun]

Just all of them.

HA!

you wish, dogma junkie. You've been pwned this entire thread. Trust me, it's pretty clear which side is on the backpeddle.

 

[Shogun]

Wow Alley’s unbiased, huh?



Robert S. Alley: Friend Of Freedom | The Wall of Separation

Robert S. Alley: Friend Of Freedom | The Wall of Separation

A BLOG!






oh THAT is so fucking FUNNY!

 

[Care4all]

let me get this straight, is shoggie and loki claiming that NOT ONE of our founding fathers were Christian and ALL of THEM were deists? and somehow... only Deists miraculously ended up founding our country with no Christians in sight?????

 

[Care4all]

is a Deist = to an Agnostic? if not, what is the difference?

 

[Shogun]

let me get this straight, is shoggie and loki claiming that NOT ONE of our founding fathers were Christian and ALL of THEM were deists? and somehow... only Deists miraculously ended up founding our country with no Christians in sight?????

Never have I claimed any such thing. Reread the thread. Dickface, er glock, challenged me to find direct quotes from ANY founding father and I've done so time and again. jefferson is still the man who wrote the fucking document. HIS are the standards of a JEFFERSONIAN democracy. HIS quotes are where we see the seperation of church and state come from. Franklin's autobio is just icing on the founding fathers cake. Dogma junkies like to pretend that the founding fathers were all men who DIDNT stem from the age of enlightmentment where DEISM, not christianity, wasn't a factor. Well, those dogma junkies, like cockface, are wrong.

and it's hilarious to watch them try to assimilate one ore secular thing into their cultish realm by slapping a jebus sticker on it and pretending that it's their invention.

 

[LOki]

let me get this straight, is shoggie and loki claiming that NOT ONE of our founding fathers were Christian and ALL of THEM were deists? and somehow... only Deists miraculously ended up founding our country with no Christians in sight?????

Thanks for the bullshit strawman. I know I've made no such assertion, and I'm fairly certain Shogun didn't either.

is a Deist = to an Agnostic? if not, what is the difference?

Deist=/=Agnostic. Deists are certain in their belief in the existence of God; Agnostics remain unsure.

 

[glockmail]

trust me, dude. THIS ENTIRE THREAD proves it!

As usual from you, nothing.

 

[glockmail]

let me get this straight, is shoggie and loki claiming that NOT ONE of our founding fathers were Christian and ALL of THEM were deists? and somehow... only Deists miraculously ended up founding our country with no Christians in sight?????

No, just all the ones that I've mentioned. And any time that they wrote something that doesn't have the words "Jesus Christ is God" in every sentence, that automatically makes them deist.

 

[LOki]

No, just all the ones that I've mentioned. And any time that they wrote something that doesn't have the words "Jesus Christ is God" in every sentence, that automatically makes them deist.

This is, of course, not true. No surprise, considering the source.

What is true, however, is that the quotes from founding fathers you provide (excepting the fictitious one) do not explicitly assert a belief in the Christian God, but simply belief in God.

And what is also true is that you flatly have no idea what Deists believe, and you insist that your obstinantly obtuse ignorant position on their beliefs somehow demonstrates the Christianity of our founding fathers, rather than your profound stupidity.

 

[glockmail]

This is, of course, not true. No surprise, considering the source.

What is true, however, is that the quotes from founding fathers you provide (excepting the fictitious one) do not explicitly assert a belief in the Christian God, but simply belief in God.

And what is also true is that you flatly have no idea what Deists believe, and you insist that your obstinantly obtuse ignorant position on their beliefs somehow demonstrates the Christianity of our founding fathers, rather than your profound stupidity.

Your ignorance of reality is eclipsed by your denial of it.

 

[Shogun]

As usual from you, nothing.

says the guy whose sole offering is "derrr, uh, derrr seee post number 36, derrr"






trust me, dude.. from the Jefferson estate to Franklin's autobiography YOU have had your ass handed to you.

 

[Shogun]

No, just all the ones that I've mentioned. And any time that they wrote something that doesn't have the words "Jesus Christ is God" in every sentence, that automatically makes them deist.

or, you know, like an actual QUOTE FROM FRANKLINS AUTOBIOGRAPHY!






PWNED!

 

[Shogun]

Your ignorance of reality is eclipsed by your denial of it.

says the quote chop shop master surgeon!





dude.. you really are a fucking failure in this thread. It's people like you that make me happy to bitchslap dogma junkies with facts.

 

[glockmail]

.... "derrr, uh, derrr seee post number 36, derrr"
....

Careful now to wipe that droll off your chin before you electrocute yourself!

 

[glockmail]

says the quote chop shop master surgeon!....

Post 201- still waiting ...