Some of us might find this new 9-11 info interesting

Discussion in 'Education' started by editec, Aug 15, 2008.

  1. editec
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    editec Mr. Forgot-it-All

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    9/11 Live: The NORAD Tapes: Politics & Power: vanityfair.com

    This gives some of us, we who are perplexed about how the most expensive military on earth could possible have allowed two jets to fly into the world capital of capitalism, and one into the Pentagon, some idea of the moment by moment events of that tragic day.

    This information is about the limitations of military protection in the face of suicide terroristm, and is, I think, worth the ten or twenty minutes investment of your time, if you're interested in this kind of thing

    What the article is really telling me is this:

    If the terrrorists here had launched ten planes instead of four, and if they'd targeted let's say the White House, Congress, Supreme Cpout and the Pentagon with all of them, they'd probably have effectively gotten all or most of them to hit those targets.

    Not because the military/FCC coordination was botched, but because the system in place, simply could NOT gather and process the data quickly enough to prevent those planes from reaching their targets.

    Since it appars that our entire system for tracking cvilian passenger jets depended on IFF beacons, and those were turned off by the terrorists, our military still didn't know what planes were hijacked, or in those cases when they knew which planes were jacked, where they were in some bases 1 hour and 58 minutes after the first highjacking was reported.

    This is not a slam at the military.

    The fact is that our society is more and more complex and reliant on technology, and the more complex the system, the easier it gets to monkeywrench if you understand it, and understanding it isn't really all that hard to do for some people.

    Remember that:

    Establishing a defence requires that one can first imagine and then create a defence against EVERY POSSIBLE avenue of attack.

    Attacking only demands that you find one chink in the defensive perimeter to exploit.

    Obviously, given the above, defending this nation from terrorist attacks is a monumental task which is bound to fail occassionally UNLESS, we have INTEL which gives us advanced information about the enemy (we don't, that much is obvious) to prevent such attacks AND leadership which can take that information and use it effectively, too.

    Technology and the military can not give us the entire solution to protecting our nation, folks.

    I know I keep hammering this home here, but that's because I think this place if rife with miltiary and propellor heads who think it is.

    We need to understand the rest of the world if we're going to have a chance in hell of staying on top of things.

    We need liguists, social scientists, pychologists, criminalologists, economists, historians, andthe whole host of social sciences and humanities which America seems to have abandoned (since 1958 incidently) to the ALSO RAN status of importance when compared to the hard sciences.

    9-11 was a catastrophic wake up call about the failure of our educational system to provide us with the kinds of people that an empire REALLY needs to keep a lid on things.

    9-11 was a failure of our INTEL community, more than a failure of our military, folks.

    Our military can only really defend us effective against ANOTHER military threat.

    INTEL and understanding the enemy is the ONLY defence against monkey-wrenching terrorists either of the foreign or domestic persuasion.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2008
  2. sealybobo
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    sealybobo Diamond Member

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    These people were helpless since Chaney had control of NORAD. If he didn't have control of NORAD, the second plane certainly wouldn't have made it to the World Trade Center and that one plane would have NEVER made it to the Pentagon. Mission accomplished Dick Chaney.

    Just like now we have a Lobbyist from the country of Georgia working for McCain and he is also part of PNAC, a right wing think tank. And if you read PNAC, you would not be surprised that this Georgia thing is happening. PNAC wants wars. They need to start up the old cold war so they can push their radical agenda. An unstable world is a good thing to them. Georgia is just a pawn.

    The NEO CONS allowed 9-11 to happen and they have also orchestrated this Georgia thing. It's all going according to plan if you are part of PNAC.

    Have you bought in to PNAC? Is that your vision for the 21st century? If you are supporting the GOP, then you must be in favor of this new world order. Or at least be familiar with it, which I doubt most of you are. That's the real agenda for the GOP. So if you think you support the GOP but haven't read PNAC, I suggest that be your homework this weekend.
     
  3. editec
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    editec Mr. Forgot-it-All

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    I think it might open your eyes to actually read that article in depth and with a politically unbiased point of views, Sealy.

    I don't think politics has doodle-squat to do with that failure to protect our nation.
     
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  4. sealybobo
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    sealybobo Diamond Member

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    I read it, and I don't buy it. Or, I buy it that these people were unorganized and unprepared, but our intelligence agencies flew down to Crawford and told the President. Had he told NORAD and the airlines what the warnings were, this could have been avoided. And those other agencies wouldn't have been caught unprepared.

    Why did Chaney have control over NORAD? What could NORAD do if Chaney had control of our air defense?

    And what is this article saying that I'm not getting?

    We were all too bias at the time Bush bullshitted us into Iraq. So sorry if I'm skeptical of anything they tell us now.

    If you let your boss down, does he double check your work the next time you hand it in or does he just take it and assume you didn't fuck up again?
     
  5. editec
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    editec Mr. Forgot-it-All

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    Well.. if you don't believe the information presented, then of course, I would not expect you to take much away from it.

    It stuck me as credible, though. Perhaps that just because I have less confidence in technology to save us from technology than most people.

    Fog of war, especially one in a situation where the system itself wasn't geared to giving the people who needed information what they needed, seems like a very credible explaination for the complete failing of our air defence systems on 9-11.
     
  6. Ravi
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    Ravi Diamond Member

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    Excellent link, Eddie.

    As I read it I was struck at the consequences of budget cuts (antiquated equipment that wouldn't allow NORAD to pinpoint AA #11), though it's quite possible that even if fighter jets were tailing it, it still would have hit the tower...because none of those at NORAD had the authority to shoot it down and more than likely none of them had any idea that a jet would actually be used in this manner.

    I'm also relieved that AQ wasn't quite as organized as we give them credit for...they could have had several other targets that day, and done much more damage.

    And I'm frustrated that the outcome of this seems to be the idiotic screenings of all passengers boarding planes. What a huge waste of money, IMO, to accomplish a goal that could be reached in a cheaper and less annoying manner.
     
  7. sealybobo
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    sealybobo Diamond Member

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    Or Chaney had control of NORAD, which is our air defense system. No VP in the history of America ever took control of NORAD for "exercises". I wonder why Chaney took control?

    But yes I do believe people were caught off guard. And I don't think they were all involved either. But I do think Chaney took control of NORAD because if the right people had control of NORAD, those planes would have not reached their targets.

    So yes, many intelligence people were caught off guard and shit their pants. Bush put himself in a classroom. Just like he was at the Olympics when Russia started bombing Georgia. Alabi.

    Your little story is cute, but it doesn't answer all the questions a lot of us still have about 9-11. I think your story is more of a distraction. "see look, people were genuinely caught off guard". So what? Of course they were caught off guard.

    This is just another reason not to vote Republican. Remember Katrina? It took Brownie, a Bush appointee, 5 days to get water to that stadium where people were being raped and murdered. Yes, the Bush government is not prepared for shit!!! More reason to vote Democratic.
     
  8. editec
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    editec Mr. Forgot-it-All

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    I took away from this the story that even if they'd had modern equipement, the fact that that equipment depended on IFF beacons would have made it worthless.

    Additionally, once those jets went below radar, NORAD was blind.

    Additionally coordinating information was damned near impossible, possible because the system wasn't well thought out to begin with?

    We're fed so much horse pucky about how invincible our military and INTEL are, that it's small wonder that we're prone to accepting conspiracy theories when all that blather turns out to be BS.

    Couldn't agree more.

    Flying is a nighmare now.

    goin go the airport, which used to be a great time, is now what I imagine visiting a the Soviet Union must have been like.

    Fear comes though the door and freedom flies out the window, folks.
     

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