What If Us Atheists Are Right? Hmmmm...

[N4mddissent]

WELL if you are right no one lost a thing. But if we are right you have lost everything.... its a win win for christians

My response (on the other "what if" thread- didn't want to post the same thing twice)

Your respons in the link is so severely overthought, that it completely by-passes the whole point of believing in God. 1. God is just if you go to hell for not believing in him. He wouldn't be just if he let everyone in to heaven, even if they're bad. Would our justice system be "just" if it gave rapists and murders a $500 dollar fine and then set them free?
2. There's a reason it's called "faith." You have faith that he exists. Having faith means that you don't have to have 100% proof.
There's also the fact that God isn't the only being that has force over this earth. The entire Bible is filled with people being influenced by Satan. The whole Bible is filled with people being influenced by God...but ultimately...making their own decisions. It's the decisions they make that influence their sinliness or obedience.

No matter which way you cut the pie, it all boils down to...

If you're right, they there's no harm done...we all rot in boxes.

If you're wrong, then you've got a problem...whether it be you go to Hell for eternity, or some other punishment that got has for you.

Let's not forget that all Christian religions do not believe that you go to Hell for eternity...some believe that you go to purgatory based on the sins you commit. Some religions beleive that there are certain levels of Heaven.

As for your first point. I would not think it is okay to charge rapists and murderers $500 and set them free. Would you think it was just to execute people for jaywalking? Yet, that pales in comparison to infinite punishment. Infinite punishment would be unjust for any sin. How long would Hitler have to suffer? Surely at some point it would be enough. Any number you name, even five billion years of ultimate suffering and torture, is not even a fraction of a percent of eternity. Yet a decent moral person who happens to not believe in god will suffer that same fate. Fuck that god.

And faith does not mean less than 100% proof. If I presented evidence that made it 99% certain someone had committed a crime, then convicting that person would not require faith. If you write down a number between 1 and 100 and I pick a number between 1 and 100, I do not need faith in the conviction that it is unlikely we chose the same number. Faith would be the opposite- believing we had chose the same number without any evidence or expectation that it is the case.

And god created satan, right? Why? And why not kill him and stop all of his evil? Maybe he doesn't care?

How could you believe in a god so pernicious? A god who arbitrarily reveals himself, allows evil and suffering to perpetuate, and punishes unjustly those who he knowingly designed with flaws? I think the answer was in your response to me

Your respons in the link is so severely overthought, that it completely by-passes the whole point of believing in God.

That's right. The whole point is not to think about it too much. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[eagleseven]

If I were a betting man, I would bet that there is something supernatural, simply because man is not omniscient.

Of course, because we are not omniscient, we have no way of knowing. But, given the patterns of existence that we observe, it is logical to conclude that existence is more likely than non-existence just beyond our sensory perception.

We can see a pattern as far as the eye can see, and so can predict that the pattern continues beyond as far as the eye can see. This line of thought prompted Columbus to make his voyage to America.

If you want to call existence beyond our sensory perception "god", so be it.

Does this make me an agnostic theist?

 

[Dr Grump]

I reckon there is something out there, just not a god or omniscient being of any description....

 

[N4mddissent]

If I were a betting man, I would bet that there is something supernatural, simply because man is not omniscient.

Of course, because we are not omniscient, we have no way of knowing. But, given the patterns of existence that we observe, it is logical to conclude that existence is more likely than non-existence just beyond our sensory perception.

We can see a pattern as far as the eye can see, and so can predict that the pattern continues beyond as far as the eye can see. This line of thought prompted Columbus to make his voyage to America.

If you want to call existence beyond our sensory perception "god", so be it.

Does this make me an agnostic theist?

Being beyond our observation does not make something supernatural. For example, we developed technology that allows us to see wavelengths of light beyond our perception. Many aspects of quantum mechanics are beyond our perception and indeed, physicists will admit that quantum mechanics involves models and it is uncertain whether they reflect actual objects. However, these models do accurately predict with enormous precision. For something to be supernatural, it would have to be forever beyond our understanding and be above and beyond the natural universe.

 

[BrianH]

That aside, I'm 1000 percent sure there is no god - not in the Christian, or Islamic, or Jewish, or Hindu sense anyway..

Based on what, the 1000% correctness of scientific theory? The "theory" of evolution. the Big Bang "theory." Hell, even electricity is a "theory."

It's funny how someone can be 1000% sure of something with out proof. I can say I'm 1000% percent sure that you're a camel, but if I can't prove it, then I have a problem.

Here's a question for you...if the universe was created with a big "bang." What/Who created the matter that went "BANG"?

For the record, I'm not going to argue about the existence of God with you. If you don't want to believe, that's your right.

But no matter what way you look at it. Athiest will either rot in a box or go to hell. Believers in God will either rot in a box or go to Heaven.

 

[Anguille]

WELL if you are right no one lost a thing. But if we are right you have lost everything.... its a win win for christians

Not for Christians like you that already seem to have lost their minds.

what did you say you lost your mind I already know that..... but thanks for telling me.

Isn't this like the 4th time you've responded to that post?

 

[Care4all]

It sucks that we won't be able to say we told you so.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

oh my gosh! hahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!

that does kinda suck for ya!!!!

Thanks for the chuckle sweetie!!!!

Care

 

[amrchaos]

I think there's a 100% chance that kittenk is 100% convinced that he doesn't know what god is. Sound about right kk?

I guess KK is playing something of game with definitions.

I am an atheist, yet I can somewhat agree with KK if we can define God as a Hershey chocolate bar. To some, Chocolate is divinity!

 

[amrchaos]

That aside, I'm 1000 percent sure there is no god - not in the Christian, or Islamic, or Jewish, or Hindu sense anyway..

Based on what, the 1000% correctness of scientific theory? The "theory" of evolution. the Big Bang "theory." Hell, even electricity is a "theory."

It's funny how someone can be 1000% sure of something with out proof. I can say I'm 1000% percent sure that you're a camel, but if I can't prove it, then I have a problem.

Here's a question for you...if the universe was created with a big "bang." What/Who created the matter that went "BANG"?

For the record, I'm not going to argue about the existence of God with you. If you don't want to believe, that's your right.

But no matter what way you look at it. Athiest will either rot in a box or go to hell. Believers in God will either rot in a box or go to Heaven.

I have a better question for you--what is the purpose of GOD?

Who or what created GOD? How was God created?

Is there a SuperGod that transcends God? Is it possible that GOD is an arrogant God that seeks to give meaning only to Gods own life?

Notice how these questions are rarely asked by "believers" because what is important is the believer's own selfish desires.

 

[Care4all]

I think there's a 100% chance that kittenk is 100% convinced that he doesn't know what god is. Sound about right kk?

I guess KK is playing something of game with definitions.

I am an atheist, yet I can somewhat agree with KK if we can define God as a Hershey chocolate bar. To some, Chocolate is divinity!

I love them both...one makes the weight go up, one doesn't....

 

[N4mddissent]

It's funny how someone can be 1000% sure of something with out proof.

Only fools and religions can make that claim.

But no matter what way you look at it. Athiest will either rot in a box or go to hell. Believers in God will either rot in a box or go to Heaven.

Believers in which god? Just imagine, you follow your entire life in service to what you believe, and then it turns out another denomination, or even a different religion is correct.

Or there could be a god who says,

"I never said all that bullshit they put in the bible. I created the universe to reward those who use their rational faculties and try to explore and understand it. I'm not rewarding those who believe things just because it was written in an old book or taught to them as children. I'm god- the master of everything. Why would I care if humans worship, or even believe in me or not. Don't project your puny human envy and pride onto me. Do you think I'm so stupid and capricious that I would have a "human" child and then watch it get tortured and murdered? I gave you a mind and a world to explore for its playground, then left you alone to see what use you would make of it. Some used them well, and thus their minds can continue to exist. Those who fall prey to charlatans and incuriously accept the magical world sold to them by others both past and present, obviously have no need to continue to exist since they were looking forward to the end of this life. Besides they ignored the challenges of the world I placed right before their eyes, in exchange for a fantasy world of miracles and comfort- yet distorted it to achieve their own ends, creating their own ideology and forging my signature. To hell with them..."

Then the atheists are fine and all the rest will be punished. That's why your argument falls flat- you can't prove this isn't the real nature of god; if there is one.

 

[Care4all]

That aside, I'm 1000 percent sure there is no god - not in the Christian, or Islamic, or Jewish, or Hindu sense anyway..

Based on what, the 1000% correctness of scientific theory? The "theory" of evolution. the Big Bang "theory." Hell, even electricity is a "theory."

It's funny how someone can be 1000% sure of something with out proof. I can say I'm 1000% percent sure that you're a camel, but if I can't prove it, then I have a problem.

Here's a question for you...if the universe was created with a big "bang." What/Who created the matter that went "BANG"?

For the record, I'm not going to argue about the existence of God with you. If you don't want to believe, that's your right.

But no matter what way you look at it. Athiest will either rot in a box or go to hell. Believers in God will either rot in a box or go to Heaven.

I have a better question for you--what is the purpose of GOD?

Who or what created GOD? How was God created?

Is there a SuperGod that transcends God? Is it possible that GOD is an arrogant God that seeks to give meaning only to Gods own life?

Notice how these questions are rarely asked by "believers" because what is important is the believer's own selfish desires.

We don't answer these questions because they are simply unimportant...

Religion is not a Science and never will be....there is no formula, that gives the possible answer in any kind of concrete form....science explains the HOW of God to me and does not conflict in any of my personal beliefs....it is nothing more than a 6th sense...something you know, and i mean KNOW...not something you necessarily see, it's the untangible to me....something inside, that just knows there is something more to all of this and that something is explained eternally and internally, as God, to me....

I don't ask you to believe what I believe, and I don't think you should expect me to believe what you believe about religion...religion is a personal belief and so is going with no religious beliefs, they are both beliefs in my book....and neither of those two beliefs have been proved, in one way or the other....

Spirituality is just that...spiritual....it is what moves you...inside.

Care

 

[Avatar4321]

If I were a betting man, I would bet that there is something supernatural, simply because man is not omniscient.

Of course, because we are not omniscient, we have no way of knowing. But, given the patterns of existence that we observe, it is logical to conclude that existence is more likely than non-existence just beyond our sensory perception.

I disagree. I think there is a clear way of knowing. Course, no one really listens to me when I suggest they actually talk to the Lord and get some experience with Him.

We can see a pattern as far as the eye can see, and so can predict that the pattern continues beyond as far as the eye can see. This line of thought prompted Columbus to make his voyage to America.

If you want to call existence beyond our sensory perception "god", so be it.

Does this make me an agnostic theist?

If thats what you want to call yourself, its fine by me. I guess that sums it up as much as anything. you believe that somethings out there but you dont think anyone can know. Atleast its somewhat consistent.

 

[BrianH]

That aside, I'm 1000 percent sure there is no god - not in the Christian, or Islamic, or Jewish, or Hindu sense anyway..

Based on what, the 1000% correctness of scientific theory? The "theory" of evolution. the Big Bang "theory." Hell, even electricity is a "theory."

It's funny how someone can be 1000% sure of something with out proof. I can say I'm 1000% percent sure that you're a camel, but if I can't prove it, then I have a problem.

Here's a question for you...if the universe was created with a big "bang." What/Who created the matter that went "BANG"?

For the record, I'm not going to argue about the existence of God with you. If you don't want to believe, that's your right.

But no matter what way you look at it. Athiest will either rot in a box or go to hell. Believers in God will either rot in a box or go to Heaven.

I have a better question for you--what is the purpose of GOD?

Who or what created GOD? How was God created?

Is there a SuperGod that transcends God? Is it possible that GOD is an arrogant God that seeks to give meaning only to Gods own life?

Notice how these questions are rarely asked by "believers" because what is important is the believer's own selfish desires.

Those are good questions.

I'm not going to pretend to know the answers to them either.

How do you know these questions aren't asked by believers? If the bible gave any insight into who created God, you'd have your answer. But at the same time, science doesn't give you any answer to what created the universe. It gives you the same thing the Bible does, theory that can't be 100% proven. This is the reason that believing in God goes hand-and-hand with having "faith."

As far as selfish desires, I don't even know how to respond to that because it seems you're lumping all believers together. The idea of believing in God is to be "selfless." Sacrificing your selfish desires is what the Bible teaches.

Anyway, like I said before, whichever way you cut it,
Athiest are either rotting in a box, or going to Hell.
Theists have an extra choice.

 

[BrianH]

If a god exists I'll take my chances with him or her, rather than the thoughts of mere humans who all have different ways of interpreting the bible.

That aside, I'm 1000 percent sure there is no god - not in the Christian, or Islamic, or Jewish, or Hindu sense anyway..

Just fairy tales IMO.

Christianity would be nothing more than a cult if Constantine hadn't converted on his death bed...

Actually, there is a 100 percent chance that there is a god ... of some sort. Ignoring all the myths and legends of religious zealots, there is something that is driving humanity somehow ... it's those who pretend to know what that thing is that give religion a bad name. The reality is, we simply do not know what it is. However, even from a scientific stance, there is a spark in humanity that does not exist in any other life form, and that spark is the "touch of god", so to speak. Perhaps we to will someday enjoy the power of an knowledge of whatever created us. But like all fathers, the dream of a good god is that it's creations will surpass itself.

???

What? Scientifically define "spark in humanity".

Humans are the only beings on earth that can reason, research, compile data, communicate in different languages, among other things. There are many things humans do that are complete isolate from the animal kindgom. We can genetically engineer our own species. We are the only beings that can study other beings.

 

[BrianH]

It's funny how someone can be 1000% sure of something with out proof.

Only fools and religions can make that claim.

But no matter what way you look at it. Athiest will either rot in a box or go to hell. Believers in God will either rot in a box or go to Heaven.

Believers in which god? Just imagine, you follow your entire life in service to what you believe, and then it turns out another denomination, or even a different religion is correct.

Or there could be a god who says,

"I never said all that bullshit they put in the bible. I created the universe to reward those who use their rational faculties and try to explore and understand it. I'm not rewarding those who believe things just because it was written in an old book or taught to them as children. I'm god- the master of everything. Why would I care if humans worship, or even believe in me or not. Don't project your puny human envy and pride onto me. Do you think I'm so stupid and capricious that I would have a "human" child and then watch it get tortured and murdered? I gave you a mind and a world to explore for its playground, then left you alone to see what use you would make of it. Some used them well, and thus their minds can continue to exist. Those who fall prey to charlatans and incuriously accept the magical world sold to them by others both past and present, obviously have no need to continue to exist since they were looking forward to the end of this life. Besides they ignored the challenges of the world I placed right before their eyes, in exchange for a fantasy world of miracles and comfort- yet distorted it to achieve their own ends, creating their own ideology and forging my signature. To hell with them..."

Then the atheists are fine and all the rest will be punished. That's why your argument falls flat- you can't prove this isn't the real nature of god; if there is one.

God doesn't differ with denomination. Someone of your intelligence should know that. Hell, even the Islamic God is the same as the Christian God, there's only a different messenger. All of the Christian denominations believe in the same God and heaven, they just have different method of trying to get there, and different ideas of what heaven is like. As for religion, that's the reason I'm not a member of any one denomination, because religion is man-made. The Bible doesn't say anything about being one correct religion, and in fact doesn't mention one type of church...considering these churches were formed well after the Bible was written. Religion is created by man and subject to man's restrictions. I don't feel any man (priest, preacher, pastor) has the authroty to approve me of going to heaven, nor do I feel that I have to confine to church (man-made) rules in order to make it to heaven.

You're confusing man-made religion with the faith of God's existence.

 

[N4mddissent]

Humans are the only beings on earth that can reason, research, compile data, communicate in different languages, among other things. There are many things humans do that are complete isolate from the animal kindgom. We can genetically engineer our own species. We are the only beings that can study other beings.

Yes. And other animals can do things we can't. We just think our advantage is special because it's ours. It's survival value is evidenced very well, but how it compares with other methods is yet to be seen. It could just as easily lead to our own extinction as it has led to our survival. And in the case of global catastrophe, there are many "lower" forms of life that have a much better chance of survival. As wonderful and powerful as we feel our intelligence is- and indeed its potential is the most astounding aspect- a major asteroid impact could see us disappear and bacteria, algae, and cockroaches could be on the road to inheriting the Earth.

God doesn't differ with denomination. Someone of your intelligence should know that. Hell, even the Islamic God is the same as the Christian God, there's only a different messenger. All of the Christian denominations believe in the same God and heaven, they just have different method of trying to get there, and different ideas of what heaven is like. As for religion, that's the reason I'm not a member of any one denomination, because religion is man-made. The Bible doesn't say anything about being one correct religion, and in fact doesn't mention one type of church...considering these churches were formed well after the Bible was written. Religion is created by man and subject to man's restrictions. I don't feel any man (priest, preacher, pastor) has the authroty to approve me of going to heaven, nor do I feel that I have to confine to church (man-made) rules in order to make it to heaven.

You're confusing man-made religion with the faith of God's existence.

I'm not confusing anything. First of all, your opinion that religion is man-made is one I concur with- but most believers don't. Second, my argument still holds. There is nothing in Pascal's wager to indicate that the god I portrayed is not the "real god". Nor for that matter that the Flying Spaghetti Monster isn't the god who will save you.

If you believe that all doctrine is man-made, then you have no idea what god wants or anything about his nature unless you believe that somehow god is communicating with you. You just believe in some "being". He could be a rotten bastard for all you know. Unless god speaks to you? And then it's a bit subjective isn't it? Like the woman who cut her baby's arms off because "god told her to". It doesn't matter whether you believe god told her to, it just matters that she believed god told her to. Because that would be the same justification you would be using if you claim god speaks to you- and you have no more claim to accuracy than she does.

Other than god communicating to you, you have to rely on some form of scripture or prophet to claim an understanding of the nature of god, some third party.

As far as the bible not saying anything about one religion, there are many who would argue with that as well. (Not that it matters unless you do accept the bible as some sort of divine communication)

1 Corinthians 1:10
Now I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all say the same thing, that there be no divisions among you, and that you be united with the same understanding and the same conviction.

John 3:18
Anyone who believes in Him is not judged, but anyone who does not believe is already judged, because he has not believed in the name of the One and Only Son of God.

 

[BrianH]

Humans are the only beings on earth that can reason, research, compile data, communicate in different languages, among other things. There are many things humans do that are complete isolate from the animal kindgom. We can genetically engineer our own species. We are the only beings that can study other beings.

Yes. And other animals can do things we can't. We just think our advantage is special because it's ours. It's survival value is evidenced very well, but how it compares with other methods is yet to be seen. It could just as easily lead to our own extinction as it has led to our survival. And in the case of global catastrophe, there are many "lower" forms of life that have a much better chance of survival. As wonderful and powerful as we feel our intelligence is- and indeed its potential is the most astounding aspect- a major asteroid impact could see us disappear and bacteria, algae, and cockroaches could be on the road to inheriting the Earth.

God doesn't differ with denomination. Someone of your intelligence should know that. Hell, even the Islamic God is the same as the Christian God, there's only a different messenger. All of the Christian denominations believe in the same God and heaven, they just have different method of trying to get there, and different ideas of what heaven is like. As for religion, that's the reason I'm not a member of any one denomination, because religion is man-made. The Bible doesn't say anything about being one correct religion, and in fact doesn't mention one type of church...considering these churches were formed well after the Bible was written. Religion is created by man and subject to man's restrictions. I don't feel any man (priest, preacher, pastor) has the authroty to approve me of going to heaven, nor do I feel that I have to confine to church (man-made) rules in order to make it to heaven.

You're confusing man-made religion with the faith of God's existence.

I'm not confusing anything. First of all, your opinion that religion is man-made is one I concur with- but most believers don't. Second, my argument still holds. There is nothing in Pascal's wager to indicate that the god I portrayed is not the "real god". Nor for that matter that the Flying Spaghetti Monster isn't the god who will save you.

If you believe that all doctrine is man-made, then you have no idea what god wants or anything about his nature unless you believe that somehow god is communicating with you. You just believe in some "being". He could be a rotten bastard for all you know. Unless god speaks to you? And then it's a bit subjective isn't it? Like the woman who cut her baby's arms off because "god told her to". It doesn't matter whether you believe god told her to, it just matters that she believed god told her to. Because that would be the same justification you would be using if you claim god speaks to you- and you have no more claim to accuracy than she does.

Other than god communicating to you, you have to rely on some form of scripture or prophet to claim an understanding of the nature of god, some third party.

As far as the bible not saying anything about one religion, there are many who would argue with that as well. (Not that it matters unless you do accept the bible as some sort of divine communication)

1 Corinthians 1:10
Now I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all say the same thing, that there be no divisions among you, and that you be united with the same understanding and the same conviction.

John 3:18
Anyone who believes in Him is not judged, but anyone who does not believe is already judged, because he has not believed in the name of the One and Only Son of God.

1st, your scriptures still don't name any one church, nor mention that you should go to church.

2nd, these are things that God wants, and does not necessarily mean that people will follow it.

3rd, my relationship with God is not determined, nor affected by, any church or religion. I read the Bible and get what I get out of it. I will also say that I'm a Christian and believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God and died for my sins. I will just agree to disagree if it suits you.

 

[Avatar4321]

1st, your scriptures still don't name any one church, nor mention that you should go to church.

How many Churches of Christ do you think there were then? Do you think the Apostles were leading many different organizations or one body of Christ? How can you be one with others if you believe different doctrines all coming from everyones personal interpretation of the scriptures?

The Apostles realized that the scriptures are formed from the Church, not the Church from the scriptures. This is lost only many because they dont understand how the Bible was compiled.

2nd, these are things that God wants, and does not necessarily mean that people will follow it.

Youre correct. Truly getting unity is the most difficult thing in the world for people to do.

3rd, my relationship with God is not determined, nor affected by, any church or religion. I read the Bible and get what I get out of it. I will also say that I'm a Christian and believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God and died for my sins. I will just agree to disagree if it suits you.

Ive always wondered, what is the full extent of your relationship to God if it doesnt include joining with your fellow man? The scriptures dont just teach how we act in our relationship with God, but also in our relationship with our fellow man. God has always tried to establish a community of believers. Which is why its not surprising that when we serve our fellow man we serve God.

Also, i hope your relationship with God includes more than just reading.

 

[BrianH]

1st, your scriptures still don't name any one church, nor mention that you should go to church.

How many Churches of Christ do you think there were then? Do you think the Apostles were leading many different organizations or one body of Christ? How can you be one with others if you believe different doctrines all coming from everyones personal interpretation of the scriptures?

The Apostles realized that the scriptures are formed from the Church, not the Church from the scriptures. This is lost only many because they dont understand how the Bible was compiled.

2nd, these are things that God wants, and does not necessarily mean that people will follow it.

Youre correct. Truly getting unity is the most difficult thing in the world for people to do.

3rd, my relationship with God is not determined, nor affected by, any church or religion. I read the Bible and get what I get out of it. I will also say that I'm a Christian and believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God and died for my sins. I will just agree to disagree if it suits you.

Ive always wondered, what is the full extent of your relationship to God if it doesnt include joining with your fellow man? The scriptures dont just teach how we act in our relationship with God, but also in our relationship with our fellow man. God has always tried to establish a community of believers. Which is why its not surprising that when we serve our fellow man we serve God.

Also, i hope your relationship with God includes more than just reading.

I go to church every Sunday, but also know that the church doesn't define my relationship with God. The reason being is that churches interpret the Bible differently. For example: The Catholic church believes in purgatory even though the Bible says nothing of such things. I believe the scripture that the Catholic Bible cites was misinterpreted and does not, at all, reflect the existence of Purgatory.

Matthew 6: 5-6: "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men....when thou prayest, enter into thy closet and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret...."