Obama proud of torturing american civilians.

[rightwinger]

As I said it depends on what end and what means.

The person performing the torture always gets to define both the end and the means.

The person being subjected to torture is never asked his opinion

How many in the hijacked plane that would have crashed into the LA building would have been asked their opinion?

How many of the americans suffereing from radiation poisioning would have been asked their opinion?

How many of the americans in the burning building would have been asked their opinion?

How many americans would have been without their loved ones if their view point prevailed at the time?

So, now CMike is advocating that we assume the moral stature of terrorists..

You don't set the bar very high, do you Mike?

 

[Vanquish]

CMike, I think I understand now why I keep responding to you. It's because you're obviously SO unresponsive that anything I say is an automatic win for me.

At first I thought it was because I was suffering under the delusion that others might get infected by your reasoning. Then I realized that you're so far off of what any reasoned, intelligent person would believe that I needn't worry about.

But still I have this compulsion to tell you that. Why? I think it's simply a matter of tit for tat. The emotion of your position evokes an emotion in me that I simply feel compelled to respond to. Nothing more, nothing less.

That's all I can say without resulting to insults. I've even pointed out how pointless this discussion is...and yet we continue on...and on....and on...and on...AND ON....

forum posting compulsion disease........FPCD....CATCH IT!

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Seedy Mike is probably the dumbest motherfucker on these boards right now.

Only 'til publicinfantalism comes back

 

[CMike]

Libs just don't seem to be unable or unwilling to read anything other than from their left wing blogs.

This is from Obama declassified DOJ memo.

The formatting is lost, it's page 10.

http://luxmedia.vo.llnwd.net/o10/clients/aclu/olc_05302005_bradbury.pdf

With these caveats, we tum to specific examples that you have provided to us. You have
informed us that the interrogation ofKSM.....-,Ql1ce enhanced techniques were employed-led to
the discovery ofaKSM piot, the "Second Wave," "to use East Asian operatives fo crash Ii
hijacked airliner into" a building in Los Angeles. Fjfectiveness Memo at 3, You have informed
us that infoffiJation obtained from KSM als-o led to the capture ofRidl.ltil1 bin Isomudditl, better
known as Hambali, and the discovery of the Guraba Cell, a 17-member lemaah Islatniyah ceil
tasked with executing the "Second Wave," See/d. at 3-4; CIA Directorate ofJIltellige.l1ce, AlQa
'ida's Ties to Other Key Terror Grotlps: Terrorists Links in a Chain 2 (Aug. 28, 2003), More
specifically, we understand that KSM admitted that he bad . " a
of money to an a1 Qaeda associate.

Khan subsequently identified the associate (Zubair), who
was thcncaptured. Zubair, in turn, provided jnformation that led to the arrest ofHambali. See
id The infor.n1ation acquired from these captures allm'lcd CIA interrogi.1Jors to pose more
specific questions to KSlvf, which led the CIA Hambali's brother, al-HadL Using information
obtained from multiple sources, al-Hadi "vas captured, and he subsequently identified the Guraba
cd!. See id at 1 With the aid oftbis additional information, interrogations ofHambali
confirmed much of what was learned from KSM6

 

[CMike]

CMike, I think I understand now why I keep responding to you. It's because you're obviously SO unresponsive that anything I say is an automatic win for me.

At first I thought it was because I was suffering under the delusion that others might get infected by your reasoning. Then I realized that you're so far off of what any reasoned, intelligent person would believe that I needn't worry about.

But still I have this compulsion to tell you that. Why? I think it's simply a matter of tit for tat. The emotion of your position evokes an emotion in me that I simply feel compelled to respond to. Nothing more, nothing less.

That's all I can say without resulting to insults. I've even pointed out how pointless this discussion is...and yet we continue on...and on....and on...and on...AND ON....

forum posting compulsion disease........FPCD....CATCH IT!

The fact is that I backed up what I said with rock hard evidence.

The only thing you ilk have is editorials from left wing rags.

As far as your posting compulsions, save it for the therapist please.

 

[CMike]

The person performing the torture always gets to define both the end and the means.

The person being subjected to torture is never asked his opinion

How many in the hijacked plane that would have crashed into the LA building would have been asked their opinion?

How many of the americans suffereing from radiation poisioning would have been asked their opinion?

How many of the americans in the burning building would have been asked their opinion?

How many americans would have been without their loved ones if their view point prevailed at the time?

So, now CMike is advocating that we assume the moral stature of terrorists..

You don't set the bar very high, do you Mike?

Good grief.

How is america planning to mass murder arab civilians?

 

[CMike]

Right. Those attacks were on the LAX airport and someplace else. Set to take place a year before KSM was captured.

Like I said, wanna explain the time paradox, or do you want to continue believing the FAUX rhetoric machine?

Did I mention LAX?



Okay, I will type slowly so perhaps you will get it.

I am going by the details given in the DOJ memo.

There were two thwarted attacks due to the waterboarding

1) Crashing a plane into a Los Angeles building

2) Building and detonating a "dirty bomb" in Washington D.C.

I assume nothing else about the actual attacks, because no other details about the actual attack are given in the document.

 

[CMike]

Read the freakin' memo.

You all may actually learn something.

http://luxmedia.vo.llnwd.net/o10/clients/aclu/olc_05302005_bradbury.pdf

 

[Vanquish]

CMike, you're not posting facts...

I know you think you are...but you're not.

Seriously. I know you'll never EVER take a look at yourself objectively...

but there's no way that the Founding Fathers would ever advocating torture of even the criminals you think might blow up America.

The ends dont ever justify the means. You're caught up in this Jack Bauer / 24 style world. It's not as easy as just harming these people to save these other people.

So back to my posting compulsion.

You wont even acknowledge that this shit has gone on for pages without any meaningful win by either you or those debating you....

You just want to keep posting your drivel....

its so

so

sad

 

[CMike]

How is posting an Obama declassified Department of Justice memo, that deals with the exact issues, and it's correspondance with the CIA not posting facts?

 

[☭proletarian☭]

You said you had no dates.

Dates were given by Cheney. Those dates prove that either it's a lie or they have a time machine (then why not go back and stop 9/11).

 

[Vanquish]

You're posting gobbledy-gook memos. There's no smoking gun ...or even any smoke to infer from the crap you're copying and pasting. Yet you really really think you're making headway.

It's cute.

 

[drsmith1072]

Yeah, you can because all other methods failed. The terrorists only responded with "soon you will know" when asked about further terrorist attacks.

If you read the DOJ/CIA memo I posted, it makes it clearly that the waterboarding is what led to the stopping of the terrorist attacks and the "torture" of thousands of americans.

Actually in your own memo it does not SPECIFICALLY say waterboarding in the paragraph that your phrase "soon you will know" comes from.

In that paragraph it specifically says

Indeed, before the CIA used enhanced techniques in its interrogation of KSM, KSM resisted giving any answers to questions about future attacks, simply noting, "Soon, you will know." Id. We understand that the use of enhanced techniques in the interrogations ofKSrv!, Zubaydah, and others, by contrast, has yielded critical information. (p.8)

However, since we know that they admit to only using waterboarding on three detainees that the "OTHERS" your memo refers to means that this includes any of the "enhanced techniques" and does not specifically state that waterboarding is what gave them the results that they are praising.

So since the memo that you base your argument on does not specifically state waterboarding as the reason for their "success", where did you get your info concerning waterboarding?? Did you draw that conclusion all on your own??

 

[drsmith1072]

Better yet Vanquish I have an idea.

3 scumbag mastermind terrorists are caught. When asked about terrorist attacks the fuckers taunt the interrogators by saying "soon, you will know".

You try the Obama way of giving them tea and croissants. That doesn't work. Nothing works.

You then apply waterboarding which is actually a lot milder than is done to our CIA people in their training.

You then find out information to stop two major terrorist attacks that keeps thousands of americans from being tortured.

One hand -- Thousands of american lives are kept from being tortured and murdered

Other hand-- 3 arch terrorists get wet

This is the reality of what did happen

As far as my mother, how many mothers would be dead or grieving for their children, if Obama was president, and the 3 terrorists were not waterboarded, and the terrorists attacks occurred, as planned?

If one of the events that you are talking about is the capture of padilla, he was captured on May 8, 2002 and the waterboarding and enhanced interrogation techniques weren't officially authorized for use on zubaydah until Aug of 2002.

So how did a technique that was only approved for use months AFTER padilla was arrested lead to his arrest??

 

[drsmith1072]

Of what possible relevance are these editorials other than to prove that liberals lie, which we already know?

I already documented it in the OP by providing the link to the Obama declassified DOJ/CIA memo.

Thanks for showing that liberals lie though.

Actually the memo, which the CIA and the W administration did not want released, is contradictory and doesn't match the FACTS.

Fact: Zubaydah was captured on March 28, 2002

Fact: padilla was arrested on May 8, 2002

Fact: enhanced interrogation techniques were not approved for use on zubaydah until Aug 2002.

Fact: KSM was captured on March 1, 2003

Fact: the LA library tower plot was prevented in 2002 according to the Bush white house.

The FACTS don't support the claims made in that memo that was written in 2005.

 

[driveby]

Tell us all about it. This explains ALL of the terrorist attacks we have had since this weak President has been in office, right?

The mass shooting in Texas and the underwear bomber, both foiled by the sooper Obama administration !

 

[CMike]

Of what possible relevance are these editorials other than to prove that liberals lie, which we already know?

I already documented it in the OP by providing the link to the Obama declassified DOJ/CIA memo.

Thanks for showing that liberals lie though.

Actually the memo, which the CIA and the W administration did not want released, is contradictory and doesn't match the FACTS.

Fact: Zubaydah was captured on March 28, 2002

Fact: padilla was arrested on May 8, 2002

Fact: enhanced interrogation techniques were not approved for use on zubaydah until Aug 2002.

Fact: KSM was captured on March 1, 2003

Fact: the LA library tower plot was prevented in 2002 according to the Bush white house.

The FACTS don't support the claims made in that memo that was written in 2005.

Your last fact is wrong.

Despite some captures, the plot was still going on.

The formatting is messed up. If you go to the link, page 10, you can read it without the messed up formatting.

The formatting is lost, it's page 10.

http://luxmedia.vo.llnwd.net/o10/cli...5_bradbury.pdf

With these caveats, we tum to specific examples that you have provided to us. You have
informed us that the interrogation ofKSM.....-,Ql1ce enhanced techniques were employed-led to
the discovery ofaKSM piot, the "Second Wave," "to use East Asian operatives fo crash Ii
hijacked airliner into" a building in Los Angeles. Fjfectiveness Memo at 3, You have informed
us that information obtained from KSM also led to the capture ofRidl.ltil1 bin Isomudditl, better
known as Hambali, and the discovery of the Guraba Cell, a 17-member lemaah Islatniyah cell
tasked with executing the "Second Wave," See/d. at 3-4; CIA Directorate ofJIltellige.l1ce, AlQa
'ida's Ties to Other Key Terror Grotlps: Terrorists Links in a Chain 2 (Aug. 28, 2003), More
specifically, we understand that KSM admitted that he bad . " a
of money to an a1 Qaeda associate.

Khan subsequently identified the associate (Zubair), who
was thcncaptured. Zubair, in turn, provided jnformation that led to the arrest ofHambali. See
id The infor.n1ation acquired from these captures allm'lcd CIA interrogi.1Jors to pose more
specific questions to KSlvf, which led the CIA Hambali's brother, al-HadL Using information
obtained from multiple sources, al-Hadi "vas captured, and he subsequently identified the Guraba
cd!. See id at 1 With the aid oftbis additional information, interrogations ofHambali
confirmed much of what was learned from KSM6

Once again "and the discovery of the Guraba Cell, a 17-member lemaah Islatniyah ceil
tasked with executing the "Second Wave"


Bottom of page 8 to page 9

"In particular, the CIA ,believes that it would have been unable to obtain critical information from numerous detainees,
including KSM lind Abu Zubaydah, without these enhanced techniques,

...Indeed, before the CIA used enhanced techniques in its
interrogation of KSh1, KSM resisted giving any answers to questions about future attacks,
simpiy noting, "Soon, you will know."

...We understand that tneuse of enhanced techniques
in the interrogations of KSM!, Zubaydah, and others, by contrast, has yielded critical information


...With these caveats, we tum to specific examples that you have provided to us. You have
informed us that the interrogation ofKSM.....-,Once enhanced techniques were employed-led to
the discovery ofa KSM plot, the "Second Wave," "to use East Asian operatives fo crash a
hijacked airliner into" a building in Los Angeles building.

...You have informed us that Zubaydah also "provided significant infonnation
on two operatives, [including] Jose Padilla-[,] who planned to build and detonate a 'dirty bombin Washington DC area."

 

[CMike]

You're posting gobbledy-gook memos. There's no smoking gun ...or even any smoke to infer from the crap you're copying and pasting. Yet you really really think you're making headway.

It's cute.

No I'm not. It's very detailed.

It amazes me the lengths that the people on your side will go to deny reality.

 

[rightwinger]

Tell us all about it. This explains ALL of the terrorist attacks we have had since this weak President has been in office, right?

The mass shooting in Texas and the underwear bomber, both foiled by the sooper Obama administration !

Don't forget the rightwing terrorist who flew a plane into an IRS building

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Of what possible relevance are these editorials other than to prove that liberals lie, which we already know?

I already documented it in the OP by providing the link to the Obama declassified DOJ/CIA memo.

Thanks for showing that liberals lie though.

Actually the memo, which the CIA and the W administration did not want released, is contradictory and doesn't match the FACTS.

Fact: Zubaydah was captured on March 28, 2002

Fact: padilla was arrested on May 8, 2002

Fact: enhanced interrogation techniques were not approved for use on zubaydah until Aug 2002.

Fact: KSM was captured on March 1, 2003

Fact: the LA library tower plot was prevented in 2002 according to the Bush white house.

The FACTS don't support the claims made in that memo that was written in 2005.

As the Bush administration was trying to cover its ass and save face after the Abu Ghraib photos came out.