Iranian aid ship sales to Gaza today

[P F Tinmore]

Let me get this straight, you are claiming that Israel signed a bunch of treaties and armistice agreements defining their borders, but they are not valid because Israel changed its name, despite the fact that every country they have a treaty or armistice agreement with recognizes those borders as borders with the nation of Israel.

I think you seriously need professional help.

I never said that. Israel has no borders.



Israel changed its name??? I never said anything like that. When did that happen?

despite the fact that every country they have a treaty or armistice agreement with recognizes those borders as borders with the nation of Israel.

The five agreements I posted recognize Palestine's defined, recognized, and undisputed borders. No borders for Israel are mentioned because Israel has no borders. Israel is a military occupation of Palestine.

When did Palestine become a country? When did they first have their own government?

That is an interesting question. The League of nations said that it created two states Palestine and Transjordan when it defined their borders in 1922. After the Palestine Mandate wanted to create a homeland for the Jews, and after UN resolution 181, and after the foreigners declared themselves to be the state of Israel, and after the 1948 war, the armistice agreements of 1949 confirmed that Palestine's borders remained unchanged. You can read the actual agreements as I have posted the links above.

Palestine is recognized as a state by the Arab League and over a hundred countries around the world. Palestine has embassies and consulates throughout the world.

Palestine is a popularly elected parliamentary democracy with independent executive, legislative, and judicial branches. It has a written constitution.

Here is a picture of the Al Hambra theatre in Jaffa dated 1937 flying the Palestinian flag.

So yes, that is a good question.

 

[Jack Fate]

I never said that. Israel has no borders.



Israel changed its name??? I never said anything like that. When did that happen?



The five agreements I posted recognize Palestine's defined, recognized, and undisputed borders. No borders for Israel are mentioned because Israel has no borders. Israel is a military occupation of Palestine.

When did Palestine become a country? When did they first have their own government?

That is an interesting question. The League of nations said that it created two states Palestine and Transjordan when it defined their borders in 1922. After the Palestine Mandate wanted to create a homeland for the Jews, and after UN resolution 181, and after the foreigners declared themselves to be the state of Israel, and after the 1948 war, the armistice agreements of 1949 confirmed that Palestine's borders remained unchanged. You can read the actual agreements as I have posted the links above.

Palestine is recognized as a state by the Arab League and over a hundred countries around the world. Palestine has embassies and consulates throughout the world.

Palestine is a popularly elected parliamentary democracy with independent executive, legislative, and judicial branches. It has a written constitution.

Here is a picture of the Al Hambra theatre in Jaffa dated 1937 flying the Palestinian flag.

So yes, that is a good question.

So why do they fire missiles into Israel from Gaza? I thought Islam was the "religion of peace"? Every time Israel gives you ragheads some land all you do is use it to fire missiles into Israel. Can't you followers of "the religion of peace" stop hating and murdering long enough to practice "peace" since you claim peace is your religion?

Damn hypocrites.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Yes they did. The borders between Lebanon and Palestine, Syria and Palestine, Jordan and Palestine, and Egypt and Palestine.

Israel was not mentioned.

Let me get this straight, you are claiming that Israel signed a bunch of treaties and armistice agreements defining their borders, but they are not valid because Israel changed its name, despite the fact that every country they have a treaty or armistice agreement with recognizes those borders as borders with the nation of Israel.

I think you seriously need professional help.

I never said that. Israel has no borders.

but they are not valid because Israel changed its name,

Israel changed its name??? I never said anything like that. When did that happen?

despite the fact that every country they have a treaty or armistice agreement with recognizes those borders as borders with the nation of Israel.

The five agreements I posted recognize Palestine's defined, recognized, and undisputed borders. No borders for Israel are mentioned because Israel has no borders. Israel is a military occupation of Palestine.

What does that make Jordan?

 

[P F Tinmore]

When did Palestine become a country? When did they first have their own government?

That is an interesting question. The League of nations said that it created two states Palestine and Transjordan when it defined their borders in 1922. After the Palestine Mandate wanted to create a homeland for the Jews, and after UN resolution 181, and after the foreigners declared themselves to be the state of Israel, and after the 1948 war, the armistice agreements of 1949 confirmed that Palestine's borders remained unchanged. You can read the actual agreements as I have posted the links above.

Palestine is recognized as a state by the Arab League and over a hundred countries around the world. Palestine has embassies and consulates throughout the world.

Palestine is a popularly elected parliamentary democracy with independent executive, legislative, and judicial branches. It has a written constitution.

Here is a picture of the Al Hambra theatre in Jaffa dated 1937 flying the Palestinian flag.

So yes, that is a good question.

So why do they fire missiles into Israel from Gaza? I thought Islam was the "religion of peace"? Every time Israel gives you ragheads some land all you do is use it to fire missiles into Israel. Can't you followers of "the religion of peace" stop hating and murdering long enough to practice "peace" since you claim peace is your religion?

Damn hypocrites.

So called terrorist attacks on Israel are constantly reported. Surely the rockets fired on Sderot were the main excuse for the invasion of Gaza. However, it is never reported that Sderot was built on top of the Palestinian village of Najd. Israel attacked Najd before the war of 1948 driving the indigenous population out of their homes and off their land. Most of those driven out became refugees in Gaza. This was an act of aggression against this farm community.

International law forbids the acquisition of land in acts of aggression. With this in mind, Israel cannot legally claim possession of this land. Further evidence of this is the fact that there is no border between Gaza and Sderot. Israel has built a cage around Gaza, but there is no border there. Also, with this in mind, Hamas and other Palestinian resistance groups have not attacked anyone outside of Palestine.

BTW, some of the staunchest supporters of Palestine are its Christians. This is not a religious conflict.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Let me get this straight, you are claiming that Israel signed a bunch of treaties and armistice agreements defining their borders, but they are not valid because Israel changed its name, despite the fact that every country they have a treaty or armistice agreement with recognizes those borders as borders with the nation of Israel.

I think you seriously need professional help.

I never said that. Israel has no borders.

Israel changed its name??? I never said anything like that. When did that happen?

despite the fact that every country they have a treaty or armistice agreement with recognizes those borders as borders with the nation of Israel.

The five agreements I posted recognize Palestine's defined, recognized, and undisputed borders. No borders for Israel are mentioned because Israel has no borders. Israel is a military occupation of Palestine.

What does that make Jordan?

An independent state.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I never said that. Israel has no borders.

Israel changed its name??? I never said anything like that. When did that happen?

The five agreements I posted recognize Palestine's defined, recognized, and undisputed borders. No borders for Israel are mentioned because Israel has no borders. Israel is a military occupation of Palestine.

What does that make Jordan?

An independent state.

Why? They moved their borders from your precious links, and changed their name, just like Israel.

 

[P F Tinmore]

What does that make Jordan?

An independent state.

Why? They moved their borders from your precious links, and changed their name, just like Israel.

The borders between Jordan and Palestine have not changed. There was the Green Line that designate different occupations of Palestine but that was/is not a border.

Transjordan changed its name to Jordan. So?

When did Israel change its name?

 

[al Haq]

The two state solution is rejected by the leaders of the very people you are defending.

Palestinians have formally agreed to the two-state solution since Yasser Arafat did so at Oslo in 1993, agreeing to a permanent settlement of the conflict as outlined in UN Security Resolution 242 and 338.

And yes, I consider the one state solution to be unworkable as if you go with it the jewish Israelis would be outnumbered, and the goverment put in place would be controlled by people with an axe to grind. Are you telling me a palestinian majority goverment would play nice?

A one state solution is impossible, and again, the two state solution is rejected by most leaders of palestinians, even if they give it lip service in public.

Jews in Palestine got along fine with Muslim and Christian Palestinians for more than 500 years preceding the Zionist project. There is no reason that they can’t do this again.

As for your "lip service" ---

“We shall spread in the whole country in the course of time…this is only an arrangement for the next 25 to 30 years”

-Chaim Weizmann

“No Zionist can forgo the smallest portion of the Land of Israel. [A] Jewish state in part [of Palestine] is not an end, but a beginning…Our possession is important not only for itself…through this we increase our power, and every increase in power facilitates getting hold of the country in its entirety. Establishing a state…will seve as a potent lever in our historical effort to redeem the whole country.”

- David Ben-Gurion

“...after we build up a strong force following the establishment of the state - we shall abolish the partition of the country and we will expand to the whole Land of Israel"

- David Ben-Gurion

“I don’t regard a state in part of Palestine as the final aim of Zionism, but as a means toward that aim”

- David Ben-Gurion

“We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today - but the boundaries of the Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them”

- David Ben-Gurion

“The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized…Jerusalem was and will forever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever.

- Menachem Begin

 

[Shai]

Hamas leader rejects two-state solution

-Khaled Meshal, who lives in Syria, called a two-state solution unacceptable because Hamas cannot envision living with Israel in peace and security.

Hamas leader rejects two-state solution - UPI.com

 

[Quantum Windbag]

An independent state.

Why? They moved their borders from your precious links, and changed their name, just like Israel.

The borders between Jordan and Palestine have not changed. There was the Green Line that designate different occupations of Palestine but that was/is not a border.

Transjordan changed its name to Jordan. So?

When did Israel change its name?

The border between trans Jordan and Saudi Arabia changed. You keep claiming that the real name of the country they signed a treaty with is Palestine, so you tell me when they changed their name.

 

[al Haq]

Hamas leader rejects two-state solution

-Khaled Meshal, who lives in Syria, called a two-state solution unacceptable because Hamas cannot envision living with Israel in peace and security.

Hamas leader rejects two-state solution - UPI.com

From your own link:

Hamas will accept no less than a fully sovereign Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital, the group's political leader in exile said Saturday.

...

Hamas envisions a Palestinian state based on the pre-1967 border with Israel, with Jerusalem as the capital, all Jewish settlements dismantled and full sovereignty over land, air and water, Meshal said.

This is the very same 2-state solution that Palestinians have formally accepted since 1993, as outlined in U.N. Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, and which the member nations of the U.N. have reconfirmed every year since 1967 as the basis for a just and lasting peace in the Middle East.

Also:

The Hamas leader in Gaza, Ismail Haniyeh, said on Saturday his government was willing to accept a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders.

...

In response to a question about the international community's impression that there are two Palestinian states, Haniyeh said: "We don't have a state, neither in Gaza nor in the West Bank. Gaza is under siege and the West Bank is occupied. What we have in the Gaza Strip is not a state, but rather a regime of an elected government. A Palestinian state will not be created at this time except in the territories of 1967."

Haniyeh: Hamas willing to accept Palestinian state with 1967 borders - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

 

[martybegan]

Zionism is not a religion or an ethnicity; it's a political ideology. Not all Zionists are Jewish, and not all Jews are Zionists.

Hyperbole about people who happen to have opposing political views being "rabid" does not add to any serious discussion.



Who has a “warring culture”?

“Resistance is futile” is a term made up for a television show ("Star Trek") that represents an evil totalitarian government’s threats to use overwhelming force to annihilate the heroic resistance fighters. So you made an interesting analogy there, but probably not the one you intended.

Assuming that the Palestinian struggle against occupation is “futile” would be quite an assumption - one might call it “Zio wishful thinking.” Throughout history, occupied peoples have managed to throw off their oppressors, despite what seemed to be a loaded deck against them.

In fact, in the modern age, when an indigenous population's resistance to foreign occupation turns into insurgency or full-scale war, the resistance usually wins - even when it takes decades. Framing it as “counter-terrorism” doesn’t make any difference.

The American South in the U.S. Civil War was not an example of an occupied people resisting their oppressors (although its society was based on the oppression and control of one ethnic group by another.)



What “current borders” are you talking about? Please be specific.

Apart from Palestinians accepting these unspecified "borders," you say that the only other choices for a solution would either require Israelis to leave, or to live in an “Arab” state, which you say "won't happen."

But you have completely ignored the standard interpretation of the “two-state solution,” and you ignore the alternative single-state solution which is neither an “Arab” nor a “Jewish” state, but instead is a nation that represents all of its citizens. Do you consider these to be impossible scenarios? If so, why?

The two state solution is rejected by the leaders of the very people you are defending. And yes, I consider the one state solution to be unworkable as if you go with it the jewish Israelis would be outnumbered, and the goverment put in place would be controlled by people with an axe to grind. Are you telling me a palestinian majority goverment would play nice?

A one state solution is impossible, and again, the two state solution is rejected by most leaders of palestinians, even if they give it lip service in public.

gosh.. I wonder whose side you'd have been on during the 60s when ******* had an axe to grind too...

give em equality and the next thing you know whites won't be the majority anymore!@!@!!@!@


OH NOEEEZZ!!

The One State solution is the ONLY solution. anything less validates the racism inherent of zionism.

The issues with the 60s are a different matter. Jim crow laws were a blatant violation of the 14th and 15th amendments. Plessy V Furgeson was an abomination of a supreme court decison. It took 60 years to fix the mess that one made legally and we are still working to fix it socially.

The main difference is that the overwhelming majority of blacks wanted equality, not for white people to leave or end up subservient to them.

A one state solution is basically telling every jew in the area to pack up and leave.

 

[martybegan]

The two state solution is rejected by the leaders of the very people you are defending.

Palestinians have formally agreed to the two-state solution since Yasser Arafat did so at Oslo in 1993, agreeing to a permanent settlement of the conflict as outlined in UN Security Resolution 242 and 338.

And yes, I consider the one state solution to be unworkable as if you go with it the jewish Israelis would be outnumbered, and the goverment put in place would be controlled by people with an axe to grind. Are you telling me a palestinian majority goverment would play nice?

A one state solution is impossible, and again, the two state solution is rejected by most leaders of palestinians, even if they give it lip service in public.

Jews in Palestine got along fine with Muslim and Christian Palestinians for more than 500 years preceding the Zionist project. There is no reason that they can’t do this again.

As for your "lip service" ---

“We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today - but the boundaries of the Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them”

- David Ben-Gurion

“The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized…Jerusalem was and will forever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever.

- Menachem Begin

Most of those quotes are from 40-80 years ago it seems to me. Back when the aim of the arab armies was to "drive the jews into the sea."

And your fantasy that the one state solution will result in peace and understanding makes you naive. Or you know exactly what would happen and are rooting for it.

 

[P F Tinmore]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5WuiBdlddU&feature=related]YouTube - Historical Myths in Israel/Palestine (Occupation 101 Clip)[/ame]

 

[al Haq]

Most of those quotes are from 40-80 years ago it seems to me. Back when the aim of the arab armies was to "drive the jews into the sea."

Who are you quoting? Source, please.

And your fantasy that the one state solution will result in peace and understanding makes you naive. Or you know exactly what would happen and are rooting for it.

Hysterical, baseless claims do not pass as "debate." Either support your position with reasoned facts and evidence, or reduce yourself to childishness.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Why? They moved their borders from your precious links, and changed their name, just like Israel.

The borders between Jordan and Palestine have not changed. There was the Green Line that designate different occupations of Palestine but that was/is not a border.

Transjordan changed its name to Jordan. So?

When did Israel change its name?

The border between trans Jordan and Saudi Arabia changed. You keep claiming that the real name of the country they signed a treaty with is Palestine, so you tell me when they changed their name.

What is the relevance of borders between Jordan and Saudi Arabia?

I never stated that there was any treaty or armistice with Palestine. And who changed their name?

Please explain what you are talking about.

 

[martybegan]

Most of those quotes are from 40-80 years ago it seems to me. Back when the aim of the arab armies was to "drive the jews into the sea."

Who are you quoting? Source, please.

And your fantasy that the one state solution will result in peace and understanding makes you naive. Or you know exactly what would happen and are rooting for it.

Hysterical, baseless claims do not pass as "debate." Either support your position with reasoned facts and evidence, or reduce yourself to childishness.

So I am to assume the invading Arab armies in 1948 just wanted to drive around, and not force away the jews from the land given to them in the mandate.

Constant fact quoting isnt something I have the time for, I'm afraid. I just do this to take a break during my workday. My opinions are just that, and I realize that.

I'm just not obsessed as you are. Feel free to stop replying to my posts whenever you want to.

 

[georgephillip]

When did Palestine become a country? When did they first have their own government?

That is an interesting question. The League of nations said that it created two states Palestine and Transjordan when it defined their borders in 1922. After the Palestine Mandate wanted to create a homeland for the Jews, and after UN resolution 181, and after the foreigners declared themselves to be the state of Israel, and after the 1948 war, the armistice agreements of 1949 confirmed that Palestine's borders remained unchanged. You can read the actual agreements as I have posted the links above.

Palestine is recognized as a state by the Arab League and over a hundred countries around the world. Palestine has embassies and consulates throughout the world.

Palestine is a popularly elected parliamentary democracy with independent executive, legislative, and judicial branches. It has a written constitution.

Here is a picture of the Al Hambra theatre in Jaffa dated 1937 flying the Palestinian flag.

So yes, that is a good question.

So why do they fire missiles into Israel from Gaza? I thought Islam was the "religion of peace"? Every time Israel gives you ragheads some land all you do is use it to fire missiles into Israel. Can't you followers of "the religion of peace" stop hating and murdering long enough to practice "peace" since you claim peace is your religion?

Damn hypocrites.

Speaking of hypocrites...how many Christian children has Muslim militarism murdered since 1991?

How many $billions have Muslim shareholders earned from the murders?

War is a Racket.

 

[al Haq]

So I am to assume the invading Arab armies in 1948 just wanted to drive around, and not force away the jews from the land given to them in the mandate.

Constant fact quoting isnt something I have the time for, I'm afraid. I just do this to take a break during my workday. My opinions are just that, and I realize that.

I'm just not obsessed as you are. Feel free to stop replying to my posts whenever you want to.

We all have busy lives. But if you can't back up your claims, then they may be considered spurious.

However, I am glad that you continue to post your claims, as it provides an excellent opportunity to address the myths and disinformation that are often repeated by Zionists.

And if you would really like to open a debate about 1948 and the events that actually occurred, I would enjoy that opportunity as well - and my debate will be complete with sources and references.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Most of those quotes are from 40-80 years ago it seems to me. Back when the aim of the arab armies was to "drive the jews into the sea."

Who are you quoting? Source, please.

And your fantasy that the one state solution will result in peace and understanding makes you naive. Or you know exactly what would happen and are rooting for it.

Hysterical, baseless claims do not pass as "debate." Either support your position with reasoned facts and evidence, or reduce yourself to childishness.

So I am to assume the invading Arab armies in 1948 just wanted to drive around, and not force away the jews from the land given to them in the mandate.

Constant fact quoting isnt something I have the time for, I'm afraid. I just do this to take a break during my workday. My opinions are just that, and I realize that.

I'm just not obsessed as you are. Feel free to stop replying to my posts whenever you want to.

The Mandate flopped. Britain promised an independent state to the Palestinians then later promised the same land to the Jews. This was a complete failure as Britain was being shot at from both sides. They threw up their hands and left the problem they created to the UN.

The proof that Britain did not create a homeland for the Jews in Palestine was UN resolution 181. Why would the foreigners accept a part of Palestine in 1947 when they received the whole pie 25 years earlier?

Resolution 181 flopped also. Resolution 181 was a General Assembly resolution that was to be sent to the Security Council for approval and implementation. The US pulled its support and the Security council never addressed resolution 181. Resolution 181 remained a plan that was never implemented.

It is said that the UN created Israel but that simply is not true.

Israel was "created" when a bunch of foreigners declared themselves to be a state inside Palestine. Israel still resides inside Palestine with no borders of its own.