If abortions are murder is a dumb question, here is the real question.

[healthmyths]

Personally, I define it as when it's able to live outside the womb unaided, which can be as early as 26 weeks gestation.

The key point here is that this is my definition and that I wouldn't demand a law forcing my definition on someone else.

Yea but your definition IS forced on someone.

Once an entity be it a chick, an embryo, a zygot, an amoeba has animation be it even un-discernible, it has another force.
The drive to continue to exist. I would say in my 70 years of existence of limited exposure to entities that appear animated in order to continue existence that drive to exist to continue existence is "life".
Otherwise the point where an entity no longer strives like in a suicide to want to exist, ALL life strives to continue existence.

So when a human organism, i.e. point of living outside of the womb struggles to continue to exist EVEN though YOU PredFan are putting a pillow over it's mouth to cut off air OR if the organism moments after the inanimate becomes animated is terminated either event is "TERMINATION".. i.e. the ending of animation, i.e. the ending of the struggle to live.

Abortion is the action except in the case of rape,incest or health, of termination of another being's struggle to exist and other then the exceptions is the action of people that were ignorant of the consequences of their irresponsibility.

 

[there4eyeM]

As humans make decisions constantly concerning 'life' and 'death' (another example of things for which we have names without full understanding of what they are), it is a bit hypocritical to think that birth is any different. We send people off to kill and die in wars, we execute criminals, we choose when to have a baby or not, letting most eggs pass without the chance to develop.

Life is a continuum that flows through us and with us. We have great amount of decision making power. Why should the government enter into a woman's decision?

 

[mrjohn12]

I think its like a way of avoiding a responsibility .
If any one is not able to let a baby taking birth then why to be pregnant ?
And if you are pregnant then why you are not interested to have the sign of love .
I know I am talking like an old man . But really we are always going far from the good .

 

[sakinago]

If abortions are murder, is a dumb thread because it is using polar logic in an argument of hard to define ethics.

The real question is

Where do you define the beginning of human life?

Is it at conception; Is it just before the 2nd trimester, or the 3rd trimester; Or is it at the moment of birth.

Human life begins at conception.
Personhood begins a birth.

Ooo I like this point. Its debatable, but it makes you think. Do we draw the distinction at personhood or life?

 

[sakinago]

Personally, I define it as when it's able to live outside the womb unaided, which can be as early as 26 weeks gestation.

The key point here is that this is my definition and that I wouldn't demand a law forcing my definition on someone else.

This is a good point too, but I think it shows a problem with our line of thinking. The first problem is that the medical community has made distinctions (which are necessary medically, and in no way shape or form are wrong) like trimesters, weeks of gestation that we like to use in ethics as landmarks in our line of thinking. Nothing has changed about the way a fetus gradually grows, we just say okay... were at so and so weeks, we expect to see this type of development in the fetus. And the problem here is that they arn't going to develop the same every single time. Its putting a Kantian line of thinking, 26 weeks okay all fetuses are good to go, which is not going to be the case every time. In reality the fetus (while it grows rapidly compared to us) is growing gradually and is not much different from the fetus at week 25. But we like to look at things in these terms of weeks gestation, and trimesters.

 

[sakinago]

As humans make decisions constantly concerning 'life' and 'death' (another example of things for which we have names without full understanding of what they are), it is a bit hypocritical to think that birth is any different. We send people off to kill and die in wars, we execute criminals, we choose when to have a baby or not, letting most eggs pass without the chance to develop.

Life is a continuum that flows through us and with us. We have great amount of decision making power. Why should the government enter into a woman's decision?

Your point is good about eggs passing, and life as a continuum is good, but to answer your last question, you still need to define if it is ethical or not. And then you get into whether or not it is solely the womens decisions. I.e. what about the fetus's decisions, what about the fathers decision, if the father has no say in the decision then why does he have to pay child support for a baby he didn't want to have?

 

[sakinago]

If abortions are murder, is a dumb thread because it is using polar logic in an argument of hard to define ethics.

The real question is

Where do you define the beginning of human life?

Is it at conception; Is it just before the 2nd trimester, or the 3rd trimester; Or is it at the moment of birth.

No, that's an even stupider question.

If anyone is having an abortion past the first Trimester, there really is a good medical reason for doing so.

But the Anti-Choice morons will show you a drawing of a D and X, and say, "Hey, that kind of looks like a baby." instead of pointing out that a fetus with Spina Bifida or Brittle Bone or Tay-Sachs or any of the other horrid diseases that trigger an abortion at that stage are truly horrible.

90% of abortions occur in the first trimester, when the fetus is the size of a kidney bean...

Your missing the greater point of the question. And yea no duh, 2nd trimester abortion chances are its for a good reason. No one is talking about outlawing all abortions. This is over the ethics, and where do you define life, and what does that mean ethically? Trimesters are a medical distinction, not a distinction of life or ethics. So where is the line drawn.

 

[GuyPinestra]

The bible says that man becomes a living soul with the first breath. But nobody believes the bible any more.

Ge 2:7* And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

It also says this...

Jer 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

 

[edthecynic]

The bible says that man becomes a living soul with the first breath. But nobody believes the bible any more.

Ge 2:7* And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

It also says this...

Jer 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

Of course, that is speaking to the fact that God is All-Knowing and not to when man becomes a living soul like in the first quote, otherwise you would have to say life begins BEFORE conception since God KNEW you before conception.

 

[GuyPinestra]

The bible says that man becomes a living soul with the first breath. But nobody believes the bible any more.

Ge 2:7* And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

It also says this...

Jer 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

Of course, that is speaking to the fact that God is All-Knowing and not to when man becomes a living soul like in the first quote, otherwise you would have to say life begins BEFORE conception since God KNEW you before conception.

Jer 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
God knows our eternal soul from before conception.

Conception is the "God formed" process by which that soul takes residence in this physical plane.

At the moment physical life begins, that is conception, God 'forms' the soul and body.

At that moment.

Any other 'interpretation' is ludicrous.

 

[edthecynic]

It also says this...

Jer 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

Of course, that is speaking to the fact that God is All-Knowing and not to when man becomes a living soul like in the first quote, otherwise you would have to say life begins BEFORE conception since God KNEW you before conception.

Jer 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
God knows our eternal soul from before conception.

Conception is the "God formed" process by which that soul takes residence in this physical plane.

At the moment physical life begins, that is conception, God 'forms' the soul and body.

At that moment.

Any other 'interpretation' is ludicrous.

The Right rewrites the bible to suit their politics.

Ge 2:7* And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The bible written by God clearly says the body and soul are created at different times. The body is formed first, but man does not become a living soul until the first breath.

Any other 'interpretation' is ludicrous.

 

[syrenn]

If abortions are murder, is a dumb thread because it is using polar logic in an argument of hard to define ethics.

The real question is

Where do you define the beginning of human life?

Is it at conception; Is it just before the 2nd trimester, or the 3rd trimester; Or is it at the moment of birth.

no....you still have the question wrong


The question is when does the "life" become a life of its own. Independent of any other ATTACHED symbiont human to support it.

 

[JoeB131]

Your missing the greater point of the question. And yea no duh, 2nd trimester abortion chances are its for a good reason. No one is talking about outlawing all abortions. This is over the ethics, and where do you define life, and what does that mean ethically? Trimesters are a medical distinction, not a distinction of life or ethics. So where is the line drawn.

Except that's not true.

Faithful to the “self-evident” truths enshrined in the Declaration of Independence, we assert the sanctity of human life and affirm that the unborn child has a fundamental individual right to life which cannot be infringed. We support a human life amendment to the Constitution and endorse legislation to make clear that the Fourteenth Amendment’s protections apply to unborn children. We oppose using public revenues to promote or perform abortion or fund organizations which perform or advocate it and will not fund or subsidize health care which includes abortion coverage. We support the appointment of judges who respect traditional family values and the sanctity of innocent human life.

Full Text of Strongly Pro-Life GOP Abortion Platform Released | LifeNews.com

This is in the GOP platform.

 

[Liability]

We don't know.

Therefore, if we actually mean it when we speak of the value of human life and the "right" to life, then, to be on the safe side, it is best to avoid sanctioning what might very well be mass murder on a genocidal level.

 

[The Professor]

If abortions are murder, is a dumb thread because it is using polar logic in an argument of hard to define ethics.

The real question is

Where do you define the beginning of human life?

Is it at conception; Is it just before the 2nd trimester, or the 3rd trimester; Or is it at the moment of birth.

It's when the kid has a job and he's out of the house.

OK, that may seem a tad insensitive, but in your heart you know it's true.

 

[sakinago]

Your missing the greater point of the question. And yea no duh, 2nd trimester abortion chances are its for a good reason. No one is talking about outlawing all abortions. This is over the ethics, and where do you define life, and what does that mean ethically? Trimesters are a medical distinction, not a distinction of life or ethics. So where is the line drawn.

Except that's not true.

Faithful to the “self-evident” truths enshrined in the Declaration of Independence, we assert the sanctity of human life and affirm that the unborn child has a fundamental individual right to life which cannot be infringed. We support a human life amendment to the Constitution and endorse legislation to make clear that the Fourteenth Amendment’s protections apply to unborn children. We oppose using public revenues to promote or perform abortion or fund organizations which perform or advocate it and will not fund or subsidize health care which includes abortion coverage. We support the appointment of judges who respect traditional family values and the sanctity of innocent human life.

Full Text of Strongly Pro-Life GOP Abortion Platform Released | LifeNews.com

This is in the GOP platform.

Thats not what the question was, learn to read jackass, and this question is where the abortion conversation starts.

 

[sakinago]

If abortions are murder, is a dumb thread because it is using polar logic in an argument of hard to define ethics.

The real question is

Where do you define the beginning of human life?

Is it at conception; Is it just before the 2nd trimester, or the 3rd trimester; Or is it at the moment of birth.

It's when the kid has a job and he's out of the house.

OK, that may seem a tad insensitive, but in your heart you know it's true.

Hahaha, so true sir, so true

 

[Freewill]

If abortions are murder, is a dumb thread because it is using polar logic in an argument of hard to define ethics.

The real question is

Where do you define the beginning of human life?

Is it at conception; Is it just before the 2nd trimester, or the 3rd trimester; Or is it at the moment of birth.

no....you still have the question wrong


The question is when does the "life" become a life of its own. Independent of any other ATTACHED symbiont human to support it.

The answer to that question would be about 10 years old for humans.

 

[AmericanFirst]

If abortions are murder, is a dumb thread because it is using polar logic in an argument of hard to define ethics.

The real question is

Where do you define the beginning of human life?

Is it at conception; Is it just before the 2nd trimester, or the 3rd trimester; Or is it at the moment of birth.

Conception.

 

[sakinago]

If abortions are murder, is a dumb thread because it is using polar logic in an argument of hard to define ethics.

The real question is

Where do you define the beginning of human life?

Is it at conception; Is it just before the 2nd trimester, or the 3rd trimester; Or is it at the moment of birth.

no....you still have the question wrong


The question is when does the "life" become a life of its own. Independent of any other ATTACHED symbiont human to support it.

So your distinction is not over life, it is over attachment and viability. So when the cord is cut, is when you draw the line? Sort of like a case of someone kept alive on a ventilator.

And I dont think the question is wrong, it just didnt specifically include your point of view (which I didnt take into account until someone else brought it up). But I find that the main conversation is about life.