If abortions are murder is a dumb question, here is the real question.

[AmericanFirst]

There are some out there on the left who believe life starts when the child becomes aware of his/her own existence, which is roughly 2 years old. Yup, that's right, I just said that there are some out there on the left who believe a mother should be able to abort her 2 year old child.

How freaking sick is that?

I myself believe that life begins at conception. Anything that grows is life, and the moment a child is conceived it starts to grow. Just my opinion and I know others don't think that.

Show supporting evidence for your claim.

Evidence is everywhere, look for it. Life begins at conception, period.

 

[JoeB131]

So your distinction is not over life, it is over attachment and viability. So when the cord is cut, is when you draw the line? Sort of like a case of someone kept alive on a ventilator.

And I dont think the question is wrong, it just didnt specifically include your point of view (which I didnt take into account until someone else brought it up). But I find that the main conversation is about life.

Again, I don't really care when life "begins".

The practical reality is that unless you want to make women's uteri property of the state, you have no real way of preventing her from ending a pregnancy if she really wants to end it.

I think the court in Roe did a good job in trying to draw the line at "Viability".... but even that's impractical. Which is why they almost immediately threw that out with a health exception in Boland that was very broad.

 

[AmericanFirst]

I think people sometimes get a bit too hung up on this idea that when life begins scientifically ends the debat on abortion.

It doesn't.

Abortion isn't a political or controversial issue in most developed countries, because most people in those countries recognise that what may be best for a potential mother (and father) frequently outweighs what is best for a foetus that is neither conscious nor viable.

It is regretable and a difficult decision for any potential parent, but frequrntly the best thing in the long term life of those parents.

If you disagree, then don't have an abortion.

Problem is idiots in this country claim it is a woman's right to do with her body what she wants. Lame. What about the fathers or the unborn child's rights? Abortion is murder of child. Not just my opinion.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

If abortions are murder, is a dumb thread because it is using polar logic in an argument of hard to define ethics.

The real question is

Where do you define the beginning of human life?

Is it at conception; Is it just before the 2nd trimester, or the 3rd trimester; Or is it at the moment of birth.

Life begins at conception, this is a fact. Defining that life as not human is an ethical loophole to justify abortions.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Where do you define the beginning of human life?

When the form assumes its own viability at Delivery -

Humanity is magically conferred at birth?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Personally, I define it as when it's able to live outside the womb unaided, which can be as early as 26 weeks gestation.

The key point here is that this is my definition and that I wouldn't demand a law forcing my definition on someone else.

Why is the baby not human before that point? What changes at that point to make the baby human?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

If abortions are murder, is a dumb thread because it is using polar logic in an argument of hard to define ethics.

The real question is

Where do you define the beginning of human life?

Is it at conception; Is it just before the 2nd trimester, or the 3rd trimester; Or is it at the moment of birth.

Human life begins at conception.
Personhood begins a birth.

What the fuck is personhood?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I think people sometimes get a bit too hung up on this idea that when life begins scientifically ends the debat on abortion.

It doesn't.

Abortion isn't a political or controversial issue in most developed countries, because most people in those countries recognise that what may be best for a potential mother (and father) frequently outweighs what is best for a foetus that is neither conscious nor viable.

It is regretable and a difficult decision for any potential parent, but frequrntly the best thing in the long term life of those parents.

If you disagree, then don't have an abortion.

I love it when idiots make claims they can't back up.

Tell me something, genius, what country is it that does not view abortion as a political issue?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The bible says that man becomes a living soul with the first breath. But nobody believes the bible any more.

Ge 2:7* And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Are you trying to use the Bible to justify your politics?

 

[tinydancer]

If abortions are murder, is a dumb thread because it is using polar logic in an argument of hard to define ethics.

The real question is

Where do you define the beginning of human life?

Is it at conception; Is it just before the 2nd trimester, or the 3rd trimester; Or is it at the moment of birth.

Well George Tiller the Killer the biggest late term abortionist on the planet provided his own crematorioum so you have could have your baby's ashes in a turn.

He had a gift shop.It's creepy, but hey was Tiller the Killer.

Oh and a side note. Jan was his Governor. You know. That Jan.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

If abortions are murder, is a dumb thread because it is using polar logic in an argument of hard to define ethics.

The real question is

Where do you define the beginning of human life?

Is it at conception; Is it just before the 2nd trimester, or the 3rd trimester; Or is it at the moment of birth.

No, that's an even stupider question.

If anyone is having an abortion past the first Trimester, there really is a good medical reason for doing so.

But the Anti-Choice morons will show you a drawing of a D and X, and say, "Hey, that kind of looks like a baby." instead of pointing out that a fetus with Spina Bifida or Brittle Bone or Tay-Sachs or any of the other horrid diseases that trigger an abortion at that stage are truly horrible.

90% of abortions occur in the first trimester, when the fetus is the size of a kidney bean...

According to the pro abortion Guttmacher Institute the main reason women have abortions in the second trimester is they are poor and couldn't get one in the first trimester. If that is a sound medical reason you are the smartest person on the planet.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/j.contraception.2011.10.012.pdf

 

[Quantum Windbag]

If abortions are murder, is a dumb thread because it is using polar logic in an argument of hard to define ethics.

The real question is

Where do you define the beginning of human life?

Is it at conception; Is it just before the 2nd trimester, or the 3rd trimester; Or is it at the moment of birth.

Human life begins at conception.
Personhood begins a birth.

Ooo I like this point. Its debatable, but it makes you think. Do we draw the distinction at personhood or life?

What the fuck is personhood?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Personally, I define it as when it's able to live outside the womb unaided, which can be as early as 26 weeks gestation.

The key point here is that this is my definition and that I wouldn't demand a law forcing my definition on someone else.

This is a good point too, but I think it shows a problem with our line of thinking. The first problem is that the medical community has made distinctions (which are necessary medically, and in no way shape or form are wrong) like trimesters, weeks of gestation that we like to use in ethics as landmarks in our line of thinking. Nothing has changed about the way a fetus gradually grows, we just say okay... were at so and so weeks, we expect to see this type of development in the fetus. And the problem here is that they arn't going to develop the same every single time. Its putting a Kantian line of thinking, 26 weeks okay all fetuses are good to go, which is not going to be the case every time. In reality the fetus (while it grows rapidly compared to us) is growing gradually and is not much different from the fetus at week 25. But we like to look at things in these terms of weeks gestation, and trimesters.

The term trimester has nothing to do with medical need, it is simply means one third.

 

[syrenn]

If abortions are murder, is a dumb thread because it is using polar logic in an argument of hard to define ethics.

The real question is

Where do you define the beginning of human life?

Is it at conception; Is it just before the 2nd trimester, or the 3rd trimester; Or is it at the moment of birth.

Life begins at conception, this is a fact. Defining that life as not human is an ethical loophole to justify abortions.

right....

and is that "live" a viable life ...... of its own?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

If abortions are murder, is a dumb thread because it is using polar logic in an argument of hard to define ethics.

The real question is

Where do you define the beginning of human life?

Is it at conception; Is it just before the 2nd trimester, or the 3rd trimester; Or is it at the moment of birth.

no....you still have the question wrong


The question is when does the "life" become a life of its own. Independent of any other ATTACHED symbiont human to support it.

A baby isn't alive until after it graduates from college? Does that mean I can kill the kids that play loud music at night without being charged with murder?

 

[syrenn]

Personally, I define it as when it's able to live outside the womb unaided, which can be as early as 26 weeks gestation.

The key point here is that this is my definition and that I wouldn't demand a law forcing my definition on someone else.

Why is the baby not human before that point? What changes at that point to make the baby human?

no one has ever disagreed that the cells are living human cells.


your hair is living human cells..... your fingernails are living human cells....so is your sperm. And yet.... you kill them all the time by cutting them off form your host body.

 

[syrenn]

If abortions are murder, is a dumb thread because it is using polar logic in an argument of hard to define ethics.

The real question is

Where do you define the beginning of human life?

Is it at conception; Is it just before the 2nd trimester, or the 3rd trimester; Or is it at the moment of birth.

no....you still have the question wrong


The question is when does the "life" become a life of its own. Independent of any other ATTACHED symbiont human to support it.

A baby isn't alive until after it graduates from college? Does that mean I can kill the kids that play loud music at night without being charged with murder?

well hell....going by that criteria.... do you have a life of your own?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

If abortions are murder, is a dumb thread because it is using polar logic in an argument of hard to define ethics.

The real question is

Where do you define the beginning of human life?

Is it at conception; Is it just before the 2nd trimester, or the 3rd trimester; Or is it at the moment of birth.

Life begins at conception, this is a fact. Defining that life as not human is an ethical loophole to justify abortions.

right....

and is that "live" a viable life ...... of its own?

Define viable.

 

[JoeB131]

If abortions are murder, is a dumb thread because it is using polar logic in an argument of hard to define ethics.

The real question is

Where do you define the beginning of human life?

Is it at conception; Is it just before the 2nd trimester, or the 3rd trimester; Or is it at the moment of birth.

No, that's an even stupider question.

If anyone is having an abortion past the first Trimester, there really is a good medical reason for doing so.

But the Anti-Choice morons will show you a drawing of a D and X, and say, "Hey, that kind of looks like a baby." instead of pointing out that a fetus with Spina Bifida or Brittle Bone or Tay-Sachs or any of the other horrid diseases that trigger an abortion at that stage are truly horrible.

90% of abortions occur in the first trimester, when the fetus is the size of a kidney bean...

According to the pro abortion Guttmacher Institute the main reason women have abortions in the second trimester is they are poor and couldn't get one in the first trimester. If that is a sound medical reason you are the smartest person on the planet.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/j.contraception.2011.10.012.pdf

So you are advocating free abortions for the poor, so they don't have to wait to save up money?

 

[syrenn]

Life begins at conception, this is a fact. Defining that life as not human is an ethical loophole to justify abortions.

right....

and is that "live" a viable life ...... of its own?

Define viable.

not needing a host body for survival.


can you take out 16 week old fetal cells..... csection them out just as gently as any birth.... and have those cells live?

give it all the life support known to man..... and will it live? Or does it still need a host human incubator to survive?