Govt in Your Kitchen

[Dekster]

So why should we inspect larger commercial food producers? Does the size of your commercial food operation make a difference as to whether or not you're are subject to inspections? Just put a "Not Inspected" label on everything?

Is there a line here and where do we draw it?

There are some legitimate questions to be asked here imho.

Mass producers are vulnerable to their supply chain practices. It was a flour supplier that was part of the issue in the Tollhouse recall a few years ago. Regardless, it is far cheaper to comply with the HD inspections than to have a nationwide recall that damages your brand name and sales for years.

That argument would have made sense decades ago before the internet.

In the present day, real time access to information over the internet is a far better "regulator" than corporate cronies in the revolving door regulatory bureaucracies.

completely contradicted by food recalls in the US usually having such a lag tme before they are widely reported that the damage has been done already. I think the last recall I recall seeing was for some lot of food made months ago.

B'loney.

Ever heard of Social Media?

Social media does not issue recalls.

 

[Dekster]

I don't think you can assume that a smaller commercial food operation is going to be more sanity than a larger one.

I agree that there is a difference between private and public kitchens. But HOW MUCH you sell is not the difference. If you sell it - it's commercial.

And if it comes from a home kitchen you can say no I will not buy that.

Health Department regulations are not that arduous you know.

Depends. Some places they are. Do you wan tthe Health Dept coming into your house and inspecting your kitchen, so guests know you keep a clean place?

If they so desire. My dogs keep the kitchen floor spit-shinned.

Next they'll want a full body cavity search. I'm sure you're down with that too.

If they so desire, I'll be waiting in a warm bath with some candles going.

 

[nodoginnafight]

yes, really

 

[Dekster]

This thread is really meandering.

There are a lot of home/farm-based food processing folks in my area. They do it with outbuildings. They do not have to be fancy. There are some basic things like sewage, double check valves on the water supply, no roaches/insects/rats, refrigeration when applicable, stainless steel counters, clean equipment. These are HD acceptable. I have been into a few of these places that were basically just garden center purchased type outbuildings. They might have one building for storage; one for pickling; one for working with meat/dairy. The house two up from me has a two story outbuilding about the width of a two-car garage. A man used to run a very successful catering business out of that building until he died. It is not cryptic rocket science to get past the HD rules.

 

[The Rabbi]

This thread is really meandering.

There are a lot of home/farm-based food processing folks in my area. They do it with outbuildings. They do not have to be fancy. There are some basic things like sewage, double check valves on the water supply, no roaches/insects/rats, refrigeration when applicable, stainless steel counters, clean equipment. These are HD acceptable. I have been into a few of these places that were basically just garden center purchased type outbuildings. They might have one building for storage; one for pickling; one for working with meat/dairy. The house two up from me has a two story outbuilding about the width of a two-car garage. A man used to run a very successful catering business out of that building until he died. It is not cryptic rocket science to get past the HD rules.

There dont need to be any rules. If people get sick, they sue the bastard. He will be out of business in no time. That is the check on bad behavior in the business world, not government supervision.

 

[nodoginnafight]

"There dont need to be any rules. If people get sick, they sue the bastard. "

And if it kills them?

Your "remedy" is not a remedy.

 

[peach174]

As long as the food is labelled as home made, and the people buying it realize that health inspectors aren't involved in this, I fail to see why the government feels the need to get involved.

It's to protect the public. ZOMG, are you against public health?? What kind of a callous conservative asshole are you anyway?? If we didnt have government looking out for us we'd all be dead within a month!

Yeah cuz we all know that homeless people and pot luck dinners served everywhere in the USA are dying all over the place.

Shelter kitchens are inspected in our area as are church kitchens, and if you pay attention to it, bad sanitation practices have sickened people at picnics/reunions/potlucks fairly regularly. Usually gets traced back to something with mayo being left out too long or dirty can openers as people seldom think to throw the can opener into the dishwasher on a regular basis.

You think that someone who wants to sell their food products from home would not be more sanitary?
Their business would go out of business if they did something like that.
There is a difference between private use and commercial use.

Yes I think that people do not clean their counter tops, cutting boards, and can openers with industrial strength cleaners, nor take their stainless steel mixers completely apart to clean them inside and out.

Do you do that to own kitchen?
If you think that way about it, then no one should eat in their own kitchen let alone anyone else's home, or heaven forbid buy something from someone's own home cooked products.
All you have to do is not buy them. No big deal.

 

[Dekster]

This thread is really meandering.

There are a lot of home/farm-based food processing folks in my area. They do it with outbuildings. They do not have to be fancy. There are some basic things like sewage, double check valves on the water supply, no roaches/insects/rats, refrigeration when applicable, stainless steel counters, clean equipment. These are HD acceptable. I have been into a few of these places that were basically just garden center purchased type outbuildings. They might have one building for storage; one for pickling; one for working with meat/dairy. The house two up from me has a two story outbuilding about the width of a two-car garage. A man used to run a very successful catering business out of that building until he died. It is not cryptic rocket science to get past the HD rules.

There dont need to be any rules. If people get sick, they sue the bastard. He will be out of business in no time. That is the check on bad behavior in the business world, not government supervision.

If there are no rules or standards that were violated, then what are you going to sue them for, breaking your heart?

 

[Dekster]

It's to protect the public. ZOMG, are you against public health?? What kind of a callous conservative asshole are you anyway?? If we didnt have government looking out for us we'd all be dead within a month!

Yeah cuz we all know that homeless people and pot luck dinners served everywhere in the USA are dying all over the place.

Shelter kitchens are inspected in our area as are church kitchens, and if you pay attention to it, bad sanitation practices have sickened people at picnics/reunions/potlucks fairly regularly. Usually gets traced back to something with mayo being left out too long or dirty can openers as people seldom think to throw the can opener into the dishwasher on a regular basis.

You think that someone who wants to sell their food products from home would not be more sanitary?
Their business would go out of business if they did something like that.
There is a difference between private use and commercial use.

Yes I think that people do not clean their counter tops, cutting boards, and can openers with industrial strength cleaners, nor take their stainless steel mixers completely apart to clean them inside and out.

Do you do that to own kitchen?
If you think that way about it, then no one should eat in their own kitchen let alone anyone else's home, or heaven forbid buy something from someone's own home cooked products.
All you have to do is not buy them. No big deal.

In your own kitchen, you eat your chicken when you take it out of the oven. You do not package it, freeze it, thaw it, and reheat it 6 months from now in which the bad stuff has had time to multiply to levels that overwhelm you body's defenses.

 

[The Rabbi]

"There dont need to be any rules. If people get sick, they sue the bastard. "

And if it kills them?

Your "remedy" is not a remedy.

Then the family will sue.

 

[The Rabbi]

This thread is really meandering.

There are a lot of home/farm-based food processing folks in my area. They do it with outbuildings. They do not have to be fancy. There are some basic things like sewage, double check valves on the water supply, no roaches/insects/rats, refrigeration when applicable, stainless steel counters, clean equipment. These are HD acceptable. I have been into a few of these places that were basically just garden center purchased type outbuildings. They might have one building for storage; one for pickling; one for working with meat/dairy. The house two up from me has a two story outbuilding about the width of a two-car garage. A man used to run a very successful catering business out of that building until he died. It is not cryptic rocket science to get past the HD rules.

There dont need to be any rules. If people get sick, they sue the bastard. He will be out of business in no time. That is the check on bad behavior in the business world, not government supervision.

If there are no rules or standards that were violated, then what are you going to sue them for, breaking your heart?

Damages. Do you not understand the concept of torts?

 

[Dekster]

This thread is really meandering.

There are a lot of home/farm-based food processing folks in my area. They do it with outbuildings. They do not have to be fancy. There are some basic things like sewage, double check valves on the water supply, no roaches/insects/rats, refrigeration when applicable, stainless steel counters, clean equipment. These are HD acceptable. I have been into a few of these places that were basically just garden center purchased type outbuildings. They might have one building for storage; one for pickling; one for working with meat/dairy. The house two up from me has a two story outbuilding about the width of a two-car garage. A man used to run a very successful catering business out of that building until he died. It is not cryptic rocket science to get past the HD rules.

There dont need to be any rules. If people get sick, they sue the bastard. He will be out of business in no time. That is the check on bad behavior in the business world, not government supervision.

If there are no rules or standards that were violated, then what are you going to sue them for, breaking your heart?

Damages. Do you not understand the concept of torts?

Apparently you do not. Torts involve duties. You want to remove all duties and then say that the people can sue for violating a non-existent duty.

 

[boedicca]

So why should we inspect larger commercial food producers? Does the size of your commercial food operation make a difference as to whether or not you're are subject to inspections? Just put a "Not Inspected" label on everything?

Is there a line here and where do we draw it?

There are some legitimate questions to be asked here imho.

Mass producers are vulnerable to their supply chain practices. It was a flour supplier that was part of the issue in the Tollhouse recall a few years ago. Regardless, it is far cheaper to comply with the HD inspections than to have a nationwide recall that damages your brand name and sales for years.

That argument would have made sense decades ago before the internet.

In the present day, real time access to information over the internet is a far better "regulator" than corporate cronies in the revolving door regulatory bureaucracies.

completely contradicted by food recalls in the US usually having such a lag tme before they are widely reported that the damage has been done already. I think the last recall I recall seeing was for some lot of food made months ago.

B'loney.

Ever heard of Social Media?

Social media does not issue recalls.

It doesn't have too. All that needs to happen is that people have information so they Stop Buying The Product, or contact the manufacturer.

In reality, regulations PROTECT the manufacturer. If it meets the Minimal Standards put in place by the Revolving Door Regulator Cronies, then it has a legal shield.

 

[boedicca]

This thread is really meandering.

There are a lot of home/farm-based food processing folks in my area. They do it with outbuildings. They do not have to be fancy. There are some basic things like sewage, double check valves on the water supply, no roaches/insects/rats, refrigeration when applicable, stainless steel counters, clean equipment. These are HD acceptable. I have been into a few of these places that were basically just garden center purchased type outbuildings. They might have one building for storage; one for pickling; one for working with meat/dairy. The house two up from me has a two story outbuilding about the width of a two-car garage. A man used to run a very successful catering business out of that building until he died. It is not cryptic rocket science to get past the HD rules.

There dont need to be any rules. If people get sick, they sue the bastard. He will be out of business in no time. That is the check on bad behavior in the business world, not government supervision.

If there are no rules or standards that were violated, then what are you going to sue them for, breaking your heart?

Damages. Do you not understand the concept of torts?

He clearly doesn't grok the concepts of "individual responsibility" and "caveat emptor".

 

[Statistikhengst]

This thread is really meandering.

There are a lot of home/farm-based food processing folks in my area. They do it with outbuildings. They do not have to be fancy. There are some basic things like sewage, double check valves on the water supply, no roaches/insects/rats, refrigeration when applicable, stainless steel counters, clean equipment. These are HD acceptable. I have been into a few of these places that were basically just garden center purchased type outbuildings. They might have one building for storage; one for pickling; one for working with meat/dairy. The house two up from me has a two story outbuilding about the width of a two-car garage. A man used to run a very successful catering business out of that building until he died. It is not cryptic rocket science to get past the HD rules.

There dont need to be any rules. If people get sick, they sue the bastard. He will be out of business in no time. That is the check on bad behavior in the business world, not government supervision.

If there are no rules or standards that were violated, then what are you going to sue them for, breaking your heart?

Damages. Do you not understand the concept of torts?

He clearly doesn't grok the concepts of "individual responsibility" and "caveat emptor".

Do you give courses in grokking? And if so, above-water, or underwater?

 

[boedicca]

This thread is really meandering.

There are a lot of home/farm-based food processing folks in my area. They do it with outbuildings. They do not have to be fancy. There are some basic things like sewage, double check valves on the water supply, no roaches/insects/rats, refrigeration when applicable, stainless steel counters, clean equipment. These are HD acceptable. I have been into a few of these places that were basically just garden center purchased type outbuildings. They might have one building for storage; one for pickling; one for working with meat/dairy. The house two up from me has a two story outbuilding about the width of a two-car garage. A man used to run a very successful catering business out of that building until he died. It is not cryptic rocket science to get past the HD rules.

There dont need to be any rules. If people get sick, they sue the bastard. He will be out of business in no time. That is the check on bad behavior in the business world, not government supervision.

If there are no rules or standards that were violated, then what are you going to sue them for, breaking your heart?

Damages. Do you not understand the concept of torts?

He clearly doesn't grok the concepts of "individual responsibility" and "caveat emptor".

Do you give courses in grokking? And if so, above-water, or underwater?

Grokking is a solo journey, bub. Gaseous vs. aquatic milieu is irrelevant, as long as one has adequate opportunity to breathe.

 

[peach174]

You think that someone who wants to sell their food products from home would not be more sanitary?
Their business would go out of business if they did something like that.
There is a difference between private use and commercial use.

I don't think you can assume that a smaller commercial food operation is going to be more sanity than a larger one.

I agree that there is a difference between private and public kitchens. But HOW MUCH you sell is not the difference. If you sell it - it's commercial.

And if it comes from a home kitchen you can say no I will not buy that.

Health Department regulations are not that arduous you know.

Depends. Some places they are. Do you wan tthe Health Dept coming into your house and inspecting your kitchen, so guests know you keep a clean place?

Guests .... or paying customers?

That's the difference.

No there isn't.
If the guests don't get sick, chances are that a paying customer won't get sick either.
If you get sick as a guest then you don't go back to that home as a guest.
If you get sick as a paying customer you don't buy from them again, then spread the word and they go out of business.
If you die or get sick as a guest or a paying customer the relatives or you can sue.
Most people who sell homemade products from their home can't afford to go to court, so they make sure that there customers don't get sick or die.

 

[Statistikhengst]

There dont need to be any rules. If people get sick, they sue the bastard. He will be out of business in no time. That is the check on bad behavior in the business world, not government supervision.

If there are no rules or standards that were violated, then what are you going to sue them for, breaking your heart?

Damages. Do you not understand the concept of torts?

He clearly doesn't grok the concepts of "individual responsibility" and "caveat emptor".

Do you give courses in grokking? And if so, above-water, or underwater?

Grokking is a solo journey, bub. Gaseous vs. aquatic milieu is irrelevant, as long as one has adequate opportunity to breathe.

Do make some Grokking films and post them. Could be totally avant garde...

 

[nodoginnafight]

"There dont need to be any rules. If people get sick, they sue the bastard. "

And if it kills them?

Your "remedy" is not a remedy.

Then the family will sue.

Little too late to do him any good, huh?

 

[nodoginnafight]

If your selling your stuff, it's a commercial enterprise and subject to the same rules as other commercial enterprises are subject to.

If it is truly a "private" kitchen - then government has no role.

 

[BULLDOG]

This thread is really meandering.

There are a lot of home/farm-based food processing folks in my area. They do it with outbuildings. They do not have to be fancy. There are some basic things like sewage, double check valves on the water supply, no roaches/insects/rats, refrigeration when applicable, stainless steel counters, clean equipment. These are HD acceptable. I have been into a few of these places that were basically just garden center purchased type outbuildings. They might have one building for storage; one for pickling; one for working with meat/dairy. The house two up from me has a two story outbuilding about the width of a two-car garage. A man used to run a very successful catering business out of that building until he died. It is not cryptic rocket science to get past the HD rules.

There dont need to be any rules. If people get sick, they sue the bastard. He will be out of business in no time. That is the check on bad behavior in the business world, not government supervision.

If there are no rules or standards that were violated, then what are you going to sue them for, breaking your heart?

Damages. Do you not understand the concept of torts?

He clearly doesn't grok the concepts of "individual responsibility" and "caveat emptor".

Do you give courses in grokking? And if so, above-water, or underwater?

I don't want anyone grokking near food preparation. What kind of perverts are they anyway?