Does Heaven Exist?

[Mindful]

Do you believe in near-death experiences, Ding?

Have you ever had one?

I’ve never had one.

I don’t know what to believe about them. I concern myself with the journey not the destination. That works itself out.

Nice of you to come for a 'conversation' with me, Ding. Must be what Heaven is like.

I had an 'experience' once. When I was coming out of some sort of anaesthetic. I accept it for what it was. Still think on it sometimes. It was like a big dose of oxytocin.

Here’s the thing... people like you are drawn to these discussions for a reason. You have convinced yourself that you know why, but you don’t.

You are here because something is missing.

Someone like You, my dear.

No. I have nothing to do with it. I am your convenient excuse.

You think? Really?

I've never been analysed before.

 

[Mindful]

Ding, how long are you going to talk in code? I was associated with 'listeners' on ships once. But I'm not that good at deciphering.

No code. I can’t give you a serious answer until you ask serious questions. The game is yours.

Serious questions?

To you?

 

[ding]

I’ve never had one.

I don’t know what to believe about them. I concern myself with the journey not the destination. That works itself out.

Nice of you to come for a 'conversation' with me, Ding. Must be what Heaven is like.

I had an 'experience' once. When I was coming out of some sort of anaesthetic. I accept it for what it was. Still think on it sometimes. It was like a big dose of oxytocin.

Here’s the thing... people like you are drawn to these discussions for a reason. You have convinced yourself that you know why, but you don’t.

You are here because something is missing.

Someone like You, my dear.

No. I have nothing to do with it. I am your convenient excuse.

You think? Really?

I've never been analysed before.

Yes.

 

[Mindful]

Have to move onto my next secret location, Ding.

 

[ding]

Ding, how long are you going to talk in code? I was associated with 'listeners' on ships once. But I'm not that good at deciphering.

No code. I can’t give you a serious answer until you ask serious questions. The game is yours.

Serious questions?

To you?

You get out what you put in.

 

[ding]

Have to move onto my next secret location, Ding.

Wise decision.

 

[Mindful]

Ding, how long are you going to talk in code? I was associated with 'listeners' on ships once. But I'm not that good at deciphering.

No code. I can’t give you a serious answer until you ask serious questions. The game is yours.

Serious questions?

To you?

You get out what you put in.

The problem with that is, with you, I have to translate from English to English. We don't gel, culturally.

Unless you're talking Hegelian dialectic. And you never told me.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

I'm a bit of a Pascal's wager kind of guy, myself.

 

[Mindful]

I'm a bit of a Pascal's wager kind of guy, myself.

Ding will love that.

 

[Meriweather]

I'm a bit of a Pascal's wager kind of guy, myself.

I never understood why Pascal had to wager. One person I knew carefully follows Orthodox Judaism because it was working for her in this life and believes it will continue to work in the next. That is the same reason I follow Christ and Catholicism--it works so well in this life, I believe it will continue to work in the next. It takes faith to give any religion a try, but as it is said, the faith the size of a mustard seed can grow magnificently. Why didn't Pascal say make the wager now in this life--see where it takes you in life today?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I never understood why Pascal had to wager.

Because he knew this religious stuff was all nonsense. Else there would be no wager to discuss.

 

[Hollie]

I'm a bit of a Pascal's wager kind of guy, myself.

I never understood why Pascal had to wager. One person I knew carefully follows Orthodox Judaism because it was working for her in this life and believes it will continue to work in the next. That is the same reason I follow Christ and Catholicism--it works so well in this life, I believe it will continue to work in the next. It takes faith to give any religion a try, but as it is said, the faith the size of a mustard seed can grow magnificently. Why didn't Pascal say make the wager now in this life--see where it takes you in life today?

Pascal's Wager-- the underlying threat of the theistic argument-- "Gamble that there is a god on the chance he will not send you to an eternity of torture."

Fallacies:

a. What if you have chosen the wrong god? You will spend an eternity apart from your “real” god for making such an egregious error

b. "Betting" on god displays prideful ego and might anger god, and you might spend eternity apart from him for making such an egregious error

c. God might prefer courage of one's convictions instead of cowardice and self-deceit, in which case you might spend eternity apart from him for making such an egregious error

d. What if the gods deplore such self-serving narcissism and instead embraces the atheist for not succumbing to threats of a human nature? In that case you might spend eternity apart from him for making such an egregious error.

e. What if the gods are revolted by the very suggestion that there is something like an "eternal punishment"? In that case you might spend eternity apart from him for making such an egregious error.


Betting there is a god on the chance that you will thus get to live forever is egotism unleashed unto infinity -- you get to live FOREVER!. That's pretty egotistical and self centered I'd say. So "betting" might be viewed by this god(s) as an act of cowardice. Maybe he is testing you to face reality without crutches and be fully responsible for the world you contribute to making.

 

[Meriweather]

Betting there is a god on the chance that you will thus get to live forever is egotism unleashed unto infinity -- you get to live FOREVER!. That's pretty egotistical and self centered I'd say. So "betting" might be viewed by this god(s) as an act of cowardice. Maybe he is testing you to face reality without crutches and be fully responsible for the world you contribute to making.

I live more by the belief that God cares what is happening with us in the here and now. I believe Biblical instructions are more about guiding us to a happy fulfilling life in the present, not sometime (not to mention somewhere else) in the future.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Betting there is a god on the chance that you will thus get to live forever is egotism unleashed unto infinity -- you get to live FOREVER!. That's pretty egotistical and self centered I'd say. So "betting" might be viewed by this god(s) as an act of cowardice. Maybe he is testing you to face reality without crutches and be fully responsible for the world you contribute to making.

I live more by the belief that God cares what is happening with us in the here and now. I believe Biblical instructions are more about guiding us to a happy fulfilling life in the present, not sometime (not to mention somewhere else) in the future.

But you can get all that and then some without the Bible. In fact, you already do. Your morality and ethics are chiefly the product of the genetic accident of where and when you were born...not some iron age rag that was one of our first and worst attempts at figuring out morality and ethics.

 

[Meriweather]

ut you can get all that and then some without the Bible. In fact, you already do. Your morality and ethics are chiefly the product of the genetic accident of where and when you were born...not some iron age rag that was one of our first and worst attempts at figuring out morality and ethics.

It may be our thinking has as much (or more) to do with our morality and ethics as our genetics and environment. No argument that all have an effect on who we are and what we become. Iron Age man offers his insights and wisdom for any who are interested. It does help today to study Iron Age histories and cultures as we read through the Bible. That gives those of us who are interested the opportunity to see life and the world through their eyes as well. I find different perspectives expand both the mind and understanding.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

It may be our thinking has as much (or more) to do with our morality and ethics as our genetics and environment.

Well certainly, in some cases. But what you cannot deny is that the bar is different in, for instance, 2018 western society than in 1500 Europe, despite having the same instruction book. So this shows us that the secular enlightenment we have discovered has had a profound impact on our values. Yours too. That's why you are against slavery, instead of using the Bible to justify it, for instance.

 

[Meriweather]

That's why you are against slavery, instead of using the Bible to justify it, for instance.

Are you aware that Abolitionists used the Bible to insist slavery was wrong? And, who said I was against slavery?

 

[BreezeWood]

It may be our thinking has as much (or more) to do with our morality and ethics as our genetics and environment.

Well certainly, in some cases. But what you cannot deny is that the bar is different in, for instance, 2018 western society than in 1500 Europe, despite having the same instruction book. So this shows us that the secular enlightenment we have discovered has had a profound impact on our values. Yours too. That's why you are against slavery, instead of using the Bible to justify it, for instance.

.

Well certainly, in some cases. But what you cannot deny is that the bar is different in, for instance, 2018 western society than in 1500 Europe, despite having the same instruction book. So this shows us that the secular enlightenment we have discovered has had a profound impact on our values. Yours too. That's why you are against slavery, instead of using the Bible to justify it, for instance.

--it works so well in this life, I believe it will continue to work in the next.

I believe Biblical instructions are more about guiding us to a happy fulfilling life in the present, not sometime (not to mention somewhere else) in the future.

it works so well in this life ... I believe Biblical instructions are more about guiding us to a happy fulfilling life in the present.

Annotation: This engraving depicts the execution of David van der Leyen and Levina Ghyselins, described variously as Dutch Anabaptists or Mennonites, by Catholic authorities in Ghent in 1554.


But what you cannot deny is that the bar is different in, for instance, 2018 western society than in 1500 Europe,

merieweather as most christians purposely overlook / deny the history of the christian bible, its uninterrupted persecution and victimization of the innocent rather than address in real terms the reasons for such a dark and unnecessary past. a selfseving messiah rather than actual truths and objectives.

there is not one century since the 4th the above depiction did not take place ...

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Are you aware that Abolitionists used the Bible to insist slavery was wrong?

I am, and that only further illustrates my point. They didn't do such a good job in the year 1500 of that, now did they? They benefitted from secular enlightenment. Desoite carrying around the same, iron age instruction book, later people found a way to snap fit it to a better morality. They didn't discover this better morality in the Bible. They were gifted it by better ideas arising from scientific enlightenment and classical liberalism, for instance. The Bible just came along for the ride.

 

[Hollie]

Betting there is a god on the chance that you will thus get to live forever is egotism unleashed unto infinity -- you get to live FOREVER!. That's pretty egotistical and self centered I'd say. So "betting" might be viewed by this god(s) as an act of cowardice. Maybe he is testing you to face reality without crutches and be fully responsible for the world you contribute to making.

I live more by the belief that God cares what is happening with us in the here and now. I believe Biblical instructions are more about guiding us to a happy fulfilling life in the present, not sometime (not to mention somewhere else) in the future.

Maybe the gods do care about some of us and not others. That might account for why accidents happen.

There was a news story years ago about a bus that ran off the highway and plunged to the bottom of a ravine. Only a few people survived. It was a miracle from God! - for the survivors. Thank you God, and screw the losers who died!

I can agree that certain parts of the Bible are about how to conduct yourself in life and how to treat others. However, you can be a good person without giving two hoots about god(s) as billions of non-religionists prove every day. The atrocities of the old testament pale in comparison to the holocausts, pogroms, wars and genocides that the teachings/behaviors of religious “prophets” have inspired. Do you think the Greeks burned old women because they were witches? The greatest library of all time-- the Library at Alexandria --was created by the Greek Ionians-- men who believed in Zeus. It was a religious mob that destroyed their works and literally set us back 2,000 years.