Does Heaven Exist?

[Tax Man]

When most atheists and theists discuss God, one thing that always stands out as an enormous problem is the existence of suffering and evil, despite many atheists not believing in the latter. They argue: how could an all-loving, all-powerful God create such a world of perpetual misery punctuated by brief moments of joy? The short answer to that profound, emotional moral question is: Freedom of the Will and an eternal afterlife of bliss, void of any pain or suffering.

On moral evil, God gives us freedom to choose what to do rather than use us as puppets, rendering us soulless. However, with this freedom, some people unwittingly inflict suffering onto themselves, while others inflict it onto other human beings. As for natural evil (earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, tsunamis, etc), such phenomena are requirements for sustaining a stable, functioning earth, thus maintaining the survival of human creatures lucky to escape the fatal consequences of the above.

For instance, in a Godless universe, a tsunami killing thousands of people is both good and bad: bad for those unfortunate people who suffered and died, but good for the marine life which feasts on the victims who drowned. This brings us on to the subject of Heaven: does it exist and will the victims of tsunamis or other fatal misfortunes, both moral and natural, go there?

For if it does exist, then any Christian who drowned and was killed in a tsunami or any other natural disaster and is redeemed by God, will have his or her earthly sufferings curtailed while entering the bliss of eternal life in Heaven.

Does Heaven Exist?

No! Neither does hell.

 

[Meriweather]

Maybe the gods do care about some of us and not others. That might account for why accidents happen.

There was a news story years ago about a bus that ran off the highway and plunged to the bottom of a ravine. Only a few people survived. It was a miracle from God! - for the survivors. Thank you God, and screw the losers who died!

I can agree that certain parts of the Bible are about how to conduct yourself in life and how to treat others. However, you can be a good person without giving two hoots about god(s) as billions of non-religionists prove every day. The atrocities of the old testament pale in comparison to the holocausts, pogroms, wars and genocides that the teachings/behaviors of religious “prophets” have inspired. Do you think the Greeks burned old women because they were witches? The greatest library of all time-- the Library at Alexandria --was created by the Greek Ionians-- men who believed in Zeus. It was a religious mob that destroyed their works and literally set us back 2,000 years.

All good questions. All difficult. Start with how God describes Himself: "I am who I am." Next, my personal experience. God loves all. And there I stop. I cannot testify that God is the Creator of the universe or whether or not it is His will that prevents harm from happening to one person while another withers from cancer. I do know God is with both, and what occurs between a person and God is between them. I don't know how much occurs by God's design and how much occurs via the whims of life.

Best to start with reading the Old Testament from the perspective of how God is protecting the Israelites and how the Israelites see themselves as not being able to live up to the holiness of God. I know that is a very broad brush, but none-the-less, it is a good beginning.

Once I had the opportunity to die. I was willing, even excited. I was told no, to step back. I thought it must be because someone in the future needed me, as I hadn't been particularly needed thus far. (I would have been missed, yes--but not needed.) I was told it wasn't about anyone else. It was only about me. I needed to live. Odd, isn't it. No self-sacrifice involved, nothing altruistic. I don't know why it was best for me while apparently it wasn't for many others. And, not only that--nor was it needed that I live. Odd, right?

The upshot is God Is and God cares. Start from there and get to know Him. When you do, don't try to over-explain Him. Just stick to what happens without expanding it to anything else.

 

[Mindful]

When most atheists and theists discuss God, one thing that always stands out as an enormous problem is the existence of suffering and evil, despite many atheists not believing in the latter. They argue: how could an all-loving, all-powerful God create such a world of perpetual misery punctuated by brief moments of joy? The short answer to that profound, emotional moral question is: Freedom of the Will and an eternal afterlife of bliss, void of any pain or suffering.

On moral evil, God gives us freedom to choose what to do rather than use us as puppets, rendering us soulless. However, with this freedom, some people unwittingly inflict suffering onto themselves, while others inflict it onto other human beings. As for natural evil (earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, tsunamis, etc), such phenomena are requirements for sustaining a stable, functioning earth, thus maintaining the survival of human creatures lucky to escape the fatal consequences of the above.

For instance, in a Godless universe, a tsunami killing thousands of people is both good and bad: bad for those unfortunate people who suffered and died, but good for the marine life which feasts on the victims who drowned. This brings us on to the subject of Heaven: does it exist and will the victims of tsunamis or other fatal misfortunes, both moral and natural, go there?

For if it does exist, then any Christian who drowned and was killed in a tsunami or any other natural disaster and is redeemed by God, will have his or her earthly sufferings curtailed while entering the bliss of eternal life in Heaven.

Does Heaven Exist?

No! Neither does hell.

How do you know?

 

[ding]

I'm a bit of a Pascal's wager kind of guy, myself.

Ding will love that.

It is totally logical.

 

[ding]

Ding, how long are you going to talk in code? I was associated with 'listeners' on ships once. But I'm not that good at deciphering.

No code. I can’t give you a serious answer until you ask serious questions. The game is yours.

Serious questions?

To you?

You get out what you put in.

The problem with that is, with you, I have to translate from English to English. We don't gel, culturally.

Unless you're talking Hegelian dialectic. And you never told me.

I think it is more than that. You treat people how you see them.

 

[Hollie]

Maybe the gods do care about some of us and not others. That might account for why accidents happen.

There was a news story years ago about a bus that ran off the highway and plunged to the bottom of a ravine. Only a few people survived. It was a miracle from God! - for the survivors. Thank you God, and screw the losers who died!

I can agree that certain parts of the Bible are about how to conduct yourself in life and how to treat others. However, you can be a good person without giving two hoots about god(s) as billions of non-religionists prove every day. The atrocities of the old testament pale in comparison to the holocausts, pogroms, wars and genocides that the teachings/behaviors of religious “prophets” have inspired. Do you think the Greeks burned old women because they were witches? The greatest library of all time-- the Library at Alexandria --was created by the Greek Ionians-- men who believed in Zeus. It was a religious mob that destroyed their works and literally set us back 2,000 years.

All good questions. All difficult. Start with how God describes Himself: "I am who I am." Next, my personal experience. God loves all. And there I stop. I cannot testify that God is the Creator of the universe or whether or not it is His will that prevents harm from happening to one person while another withers from cancer. I do know God is with both, and what occurs between a person and God is between them. I don't know how much occurs by God's design and how much occurs via the whims of life.

Best to start with reading the Old Testament from the perspective of how God is protecting the Israelites and how the Israelites see themselves as not being able to live up to the holiness of God. I know that is a very broad brush, but none-the-less, it is a good beginning.

Once I had the opportunity to die. I was willing, even excited. I was told no, to step back. I thought it must be because someone in the future needed me, as I hadn't been particularly needed thus far. (I would have been missed, yes--but not needed.) I was told it wasn't about anyone else. It was only about me. I needed to live. Odd, isn't it. No self-sacrifice involved, nothing altruistic. I don't know why it was best for me while apparently it wasn't for many others. And, not only that--nor was it needed that I live. Odd, right?

The upshot is God Is and God cares. Start from there and get to know Him. When you do, don't try to over-explain Him. Just stick to what happens without expanding it to anything else.

I have to take exception to “how God describes Himself”. A book is simply that, a book. Until there is a way to connect god with the authorship of a book, it's safe to assume that the book is, in fact, written by men.

I understand your reference to the OT and I don’t have a strong disagreement. However, moving through the OT and assuming one would live according to strict Biblical law (and if one believes that the Judeo-Christian God is in fact God, then one **must** obey these laws), modern society would imprison me for life, if not out and out sentence me to death (interesting irony: the Bible is used to support the death penalty, but if one follows to the letter what the Bible says you must as God's law, you would incur the very penalty the Bible is used to support!).

So, my take on things is that people select those ethics that they are comfortable with, and often ignore the rest. This is tremendously arbitrary. It also is evidence that the Bible is fraught with inconsistencies that for me, would not be the something I would use to support an ethical foundation.

Now I know there are many references in the New Testament to love and compassion, but there is a single fatal problem with the NT. That is, that Jesus does not explain why his doctrines are good for mankind, he commands obedience for them and levies a system of rewards or punishments based on adherence and conformity. Jesus doesn't say, "Be good to one another because you are each precious," Jesus states, "Believe and obey and you will see heaven-- doubt and disobey and you will earn eternal damnation".

The rational person must reject such discourse. The worth of Jesus' philosophy is emptied of meaning because he ultimately attempts to scare people into accepting his word. The character of Jesus was drawn very cleverly, which is actually why I find the Bible to be a fascinating book. Despite the occasional overt threat, Jesus' character focuses on the implied threat: A) There is a heaven. B) There is a hell. C) Do as I command and you'll go to heaven. Then Jesus stops speaking. But we all know exactly what D would be: D) Don't do as I command and you'll go to hell.

That was the point of the faith (rewards in an afterlife) and the promise of religion in the first place! And my overwhelming experience is that believers find it very easy to believe because the dynamic of the belief system makes you feel good about choosing "correctly" and it addresses your concerns about mortality. It just doesn't back them up with any authority. My point is that faced with a belief that there is no safety net, we can either roll up into a ball or we can face our reality, and that is a noble response to a cold and unmovable truth. I don't think I could diminish that aspect of it.

 

[Meriweather]

Jesus states, "Believe and obey and you will see heaven-- doubt and disobey and you will earn eternal damnation".

Where does he say this? I am unfamiliar with the passage.

 

[Meriweather]

The rational person must reject such discourse. The worth of Jesus' philosophy is emptied of meaning because he ultimately attempts to scare people into accepting his word. The character of Jesus was drawn very cleverly, which is actually why I find the Bible to be a fascinating book. Despite the occasional overt threat, Jesus' character focuses on the implied threat: A) There is a heaven. B) There is a hell. C) Do as I command and you'll go to heaven. Then Jesus stops speaking. But we all know exactly what D would be: D) Don't do as I command and you'll go to hell.

Again, I am not seeing this. Specific examples would give me some insight to what you are thinking of and your perspective of it.

 

[Meriweather]

That was the point of the faith (rewards in an afterlife) and the promise of religion in the first place! And my overwhelming experience is that believers find it very easy to believe because the dynamic of the belief system makes you feel good about choosing "correctly" and it addresses your concerns about mortality. It just doesn't back them up with any authority. My point is that faced with a belief that there is no safety net, we can either roll up into a ball or we can face our reality, and that is a noble response to a cold and unmovable truth. I don't think I could diminish that aspect of it.

My experience with religion is that it is mostly about how I live this life. In all my years living the Catholic faith, there have been a total of three times when a priest decides to talk about hell. Heaven isn't often a topic of the homily either. It is about applying the teachings we read about (both from the Old and New Testaments) to our lives today.

 

[BreezeWood]

The upshot is God Is and God cares. Start from there and get to know Him. When you do, don't try to over-explain Him. Just stick to what happens without expanding it to anything else.

don't try to over-explain Him (them).

per your own advice, what should be done with the 4th century, 10,000 page, forged christian bible - that is if you ever really believe anything you type.

- and to explain the 35 year presence on planet Earth why they never traveled 100 miles beyond the place of their "birth", the creator of the universe / christian messiah ... to allow for all beings to hear their message to " get to know him".

 

[Mindful]

Ding, how long are you going to talk in code? I was associated with 'listeners' on ships once. But I'm not that good at deciphering.

No code. I can’t give you a serious answer until you ask serious questions. The game is yours.

Serious questions?

To you?

You get out what you put in.

The problem with that is, with you, I have to translate from English to English. We don't gel, culturally.

Unless you're talking Hegelian dialectic. And you never told me.

I think it is more than that. You treat people how you see them.

I don't see the connection between the two.

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

Do jews believe in Heaven? Hell? ...

Some do, some don't. Just like every other group. Just like SOME Muslims choose to run as immoral democrats

 

[ding]

No code. I can’t give you a serious answer until you ask serious questions. The game is yours.

Serious questions?

To you?

You get out what you put in.

The problem with that is, with you, I have to translate from English to English. We don't gel, culturally.

Unless you're talking Hegelian dialectic. And you never told me.

I think it is more than that. You treat people how you see them.

I don't see the connection between the two.

Most that do, don’t.

 

[Mindful]

Gandalf said:

"End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path, one that we all must take."

 

[ding]

Gandalf said:

"End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path, one that we all must take."

You are quoting a book which was written as a metaphor for Christianity written by a devout Catholic?

 

[Mindful]

Gandalf said:

"End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path, one that we all must take."

You are quoting a book which was written as a metaphor for Christianity written by a devout Catholic?

I didn't think about it that deeply.

I like the sayings, I like Gandalf, and I like Tolkien.

I went to Oxford, and walked in his "footsteps".

 

[ding]

Gandalf said:

"End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path, one that we all must take."

You are quoting a book which was written as a metaphor for Christianity written by a devout Catholic?

I didn't think about it that deeply.

I like the sayings, I like Gandalf, and I like Tolkien.

I went to Oxford, and walked in his "footsteps".

Maybe you are a closet Catholic.

 

[Mindful]

Gandalf said:

"End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path, one that we all must take."

You are quoting a book which was written as a metaphor for Christianity written by a devout Catholic?

I didn't think about it that deeply.

I like the sayings, I like Gandalf, and I like Tolkien.

I went to Oxford, and walked in his "footsteps".

Maybe you are a closet Catholic.

And maybe I'm not.

 

[Likkmee]

God has helped me every single time I asked. He's saved my ass 100 times. I asked him why and how to get better.He put me in a dream where I was watching myself from the side go off on a guy in one of my tirades. I hated me. Weird.

 

[ding]

Gandalf said:

"End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path, one that we all must take."

You are quoting a book which was written as a metaphor for Christianity written by a devout Catholic?

I didn't think about it that deeply.

I like the sayings, I like Gandalf, and I like Tolkien.

I went to Oxford, and walked in his "footsteps".

Maybe you are a closet Catholic.

And maybe I'm not.

Maybe but then you’d have to explain why you are in a religion forum discussing heaven.