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Why would a God even need a hell?
- Thread starter Mickiel
- Start date
Why would a God, who is an all powerful creator, not create us to be exactly like himself. Why would he not endow us all with a perfect knowledge of good and evil and an understanding that evil is bad and goodness should reign so that we would only follow good continually? Why did he not make us perfect? Certainly if God is all powerful, he could have made us as perfect as himself. Certainly if God is all knowing, he would know how to make us perfect beings. And if God is an all loving being, certainly he would love you enough to make you perfect and not put you through an imperfect existence of pain and suffering. If God is all powerful, he certainly had the power to make us perfect. Why didn't he do it? Does God really exist? Yes or No? These are the questions of the atheist. But God has revealed the truth of all of this and more.
HE may have created 'hell' so His fallen ones wouldn't be put to a miserable death....I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.
'Hell is a prison.'HE may have created 'hell' so His fallen ones wouldn't be put to a miserable death....I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.
And the Lake of Fire might be a 'hotter' oven....'Hell is a prison.'HE may have created 'hell' so His fallen ones wouldn't be put to a miserable death....I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.
HE may have created 'hell' so His fallen ones wouldn't be put to a miserable death....I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.
And this way, He remains as 'The Great Being of life and love.'
So from this, I guess I can say He is against the 'death penalty.'HE may have created 'hell' so His fallen ones wouldn't be put to a miserable death....I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.
And this way, He remains as 'The Great Being of life and love.'
But Islam terrorists don't show this... Many Muslims who live peaceful lives, however, might.HE may have created 'hell' so His fallen ones wouldn't be put to a miserable death....I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.
And this way, He remains as 'The Great Being of life and love.'
GOD is just much too Powerful to need 'murderers.'HE may have created 'hell' so His fallen ones wouldn't be put to a miserable death....I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.
And this way, He remains as 'The Great Being of life and love.'
But Islam terrorists don't show this... Many Muslims who live peaceful lives, however, might.
The spirit of all men who come to this earth existed before the world was created. We see evidence of this in the Bible:
Ecclesiastes 12:7
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
It is true that Adam and Eve's physical bodies were created from the dust of the earth, but the life that was breathed into them was their spirit. This verse tells us that upon death the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
To the prophet Jeremiah, the Lord said:
Jeremiah 1:4-5
4 Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
This verse tells us that before Jeremiah was born, the Lord sanctified him, and ordained him to be a prophet unto the nations.
Job 38:1-7
1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
In this verse spoken to Job, the Lord asks him various questions concerning the creation of the earth an tells him at that time the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy.
The Apostles of Jesus question Jesus and asked:
John 9:1-3
1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
In this verse the Apostles ask the Lord if the blind man sinned before he was born that he was born blind or was it the sin of his parents. Why would the Apostles believe that a man could have sinned before he was born if he never existed? Obviously they believed that man existed before he was born. To this question, the Lord could have taught them that their question was ridiculous if man was never existed before being born. But Jesus simply answered that neither the man nor his parents sinned and allowed the presumption of pre-mortal existence to be.
Paul teaches us in Hebrews that God is the Father of our spirits. This is why we call him Father:
Hebrews 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
This is further corroborated by the following passage:
Acts 17:27-29
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.
In this verse we find out that we are the literal offspring of God. In other words, God is the literal Father of our spirits. We are begotten sons and daughters of God in the spirit. Jesus Christ, being the firstborn of God's spirit children is our elder brother. Jesus is the only begotten of the Father in the flesh.
Speaking of Christ Paul says:
Romans 8:29
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Christ was the firstborn among all the spirit sons of God in the pre-mortal existence. Referring to the war in heaven which took place before the foundation of this world, John writes:
Revelation 12:7-11
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
In this verse we read of the war in heaven and one of the great leaders among the sons of God was Michael. He was faithful to God and his Christ. And many followed him and were his angels. They contended against Satan and prevailed. Satan was then cast out of heaven by the Father. He was cast into this earth. The interesting verse is verse 11. Michael and those who sided with him eventually overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb. This is interesting because only those who sin are in need of the blood of the Lamb. Which is the blood of Jesus Christ. Thus those who existed in heaven and made war against Satan eventually came to this earth, sinned, and were in need of the blood of the Lamb. We know they became mortal because the verse continues and tells us that they loved not their lives unto the death. These children of God who fought valiantly in the pre-mortal existence, came to this earth, received a body made from the dust of the earth, needed the blood of the Lamb to overcome Satan, and eventually return to the God who gave their spirits as Ecclesiastes 12:7 tells us.
The spirits of those who followed after Satan were cast down with him. They did not receive bodies. This is why they try to possess our bodies at times.
Mark 5:1-14
1 And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.
2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:
4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.
5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.
6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.
9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.
10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.
11 Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.
12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.
13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand
and were choked in the sea.
14 And they that fed the swine fled, and told it in the city, and in the country. And they went out to see what it was that was done.
The evil spirits preferred to enter the bodies of swine that not inhabit a body.
So what is the nature and purpose of these spirits who existed before, who are the offspring of God and have come to this earth and received bodies? Stay tuned.
Ecclesiastes 12:7
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
It is true that Adam and Eve's physical bodies were created from the dust of the earth, but the life that was breathed into them was their spirit. This verse tells us that upon death the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
To the prophet Jeremiah, the Lord said:
Jeremiah 1:4-5
4 Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
This verse tells us that before Jeremiah was born, the Lord sanctified him, and ordained him to be a prophet unto the nations.
Job 38:1-7
1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
In this verse spoken to Job, the Lord asks him various questions concerning the creation of the earth an tells him at that time the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy.
The Apostles of Jesus question Jesus and asked:
John 9:1-3
1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
In this verse the Apostles ask the Lord if the blind man sinned before he was born that he was born blind or was it the sin of his parents. Why would the Apostles believe that a man could have sinned before he was born if he never existed? Obviously they believed that man existed before he was born. To this question, the Lord could have taught them that their question was ridiculous if man was never existed before being born. But Jesus simply answered that neither the man nor his parents sinned and allowed the presumption of pre-mortal existence to be.
Paul teaches us in Hebrews that God is the Father of our spirits. This is why we call him Father:
Hebrews 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
This is further corroborated by the following passage:
Acts 17:27-29
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.
In this verse we find out that we are the literal offspring of God. In other words, God is the literal Father of our spirits. We are begotten sons and daughters of God in the spirit. Jesus Christ, being the firstborn of God's spirit children is our elder brother. Jesus is the only begotten of the Father in the flesh.
Speaking of Christ Paul says:
Romans 8:29
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Christ was the firstborn among all the spirit sons of God in the pre-mortal existence. Referring to the war in heaven which took place before the foundation of this world, John writes:
Revelation 12:7-11
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
In this verse we read of the war in heaven and one of the great leaders among the sons of God was Michael. He was faithful to God and his Christ. And many followed him and were his angels. They contended against Satan and prevailed. Satan was then cast out of heaven by the Father. He was cast into this earth. The interesting verse is verse 11. Michael and those who sided with him eventually overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb. This is interesting because only those who sin are in need of the blood of the Lamb. Which is the blood of Jesus Christ. Thus those who existed in heaven and made war against Satan eventually came to this earth, sinned, and were in need of the blood of the Lamb. We know they became mortal because the verse continues and tells us that they loved not their lives unto the death. These children of God who fought valiantly in the pre-mortal existence, came to this earth, received a body made from the dust of the earth, needed the blood of the Lamb to overcome Satan, and eventually return to the God who gave their spirits as Ecclesiastes 12:7 tells us.
The spirits of those who followed after Satan were cast down with him. They did not receive bodies. This is why they try to possess our bodies at times.
Mark 5:1-14
1 And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.
2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:
4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.
5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.
6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.
9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.
10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.
11 Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.
12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.
13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand
and were choked in the sea.14 And they that fed the swine fled, and told it in the city, and in the country. And they went out to see what it was that was done.
The evil spirits preferred to enter the bodies of swine that not inhabit a body.
So what is the nature and purpose of these spirits who existed before, who are the offspring of God and have come to this earth and received bodies? Stay tuned.
So why do you bother to imagine all these notions about a God Whom you have never seen ??I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.
It is your own notions which create your own dilemmas.
From Philosophy we know that a God or several must exist. The 4 classic proofs of God tell us this rationally.
Aristotle even calculated about 45 Gods must exist to rule the visible night sky.
The actual number is probably closer to 100 billion -- same as the number of galaxies in the Universe.
But as to whether Heaven is just a big drinking party or if on the other hand it has rules -- Philosophy cannot tell us.
Buddhism and Hindu tell us that you keep coming back reincarnated as a lesser animal if you are evil, until you can relive your life as a good human again. Philosophically this rewards bad behavior with immoral lives -- so this being a contradiction to rationality disproves Hinduism and Buddhism as being rational.
Jesus spoke of Hell as a place that Pharisees and Sadducees would go. Do you think he was lying ??
Hell is needed as a reward for those who do evil -- murder -- rape -- robbery -- burglary -- vice -- slander -- libel -- etc.
What do you not understand about that ??
Do you just want the big drinking party in Heaven so much that you refuse to think logically about it ??
As you a Hedonist ??
There is no authority or justification of Hebrews or Revelation. These two books are frauds.The spirit of all men who come to this earth existed before the world was created. We see evidence of this in the Bible:
Ecclesiastes 12:7
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
It is true that Adam and Eve's physical bodies were created from the dust of the earth, but the life that was breathed into them was their spirit. This verse tells us that upon death the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
To the prophet Jeremiah, the Lord said:
Jeremiah 1:4-5
4 Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
This verse tells us that before Jeremiah was born, the Lord sanctified him, and ordained him to be a prophet unto the nations.
Job 38:1-7
1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
In this verse spoken to Job, the Lord asks him various questions concerning the creation of the earth an tells him at that time the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy.
The Apostles of Jesus question Jesus and asked:
John 9:1-3
1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
In this verse the Apostles ask the Lord if the blind man sinned before he was born that he was born blind or was it the sin of his parents. Why would the Apostles believe that a man could have sinned before he was born if he never existed? Obviously they believed that man existed before he was born. To this question, the Lord could have taught them that their question was ridiculous if man was never existed before being born. But Jesus simply answered that neither the man nor his parents sinned and allowed the presumption of pre-mortal existence to be.
Paul teaches us in Hebrews that God is the Father of our spirits. This is why we call him Father:
Hebrews 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
This is further corroborated by the following passage:
Acts 17:27-29
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.
In this verse we find out that we are the literal offspring of God. In other words, God is the literal Father of our spirits. We are begotten sons and daughters of God in the spirit. Jesus Christ, being the firstborn of God's spirit children is our elder brother. Jesus is the only begotten of the Father in the flesh.
Speaking of Christ Paul says:
Romans 8:29
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Christ was the firstborn among all the spirit sons of God in the pre-mortal existence. Referring to the war in heaven which took place before the foundation of this world, John writes:
Revelation 12:7-11
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
In this verse we read of the war in heaven and one of the great leaders among the sons of God was Michael. He was faithful to God and his Christ. And many followed him and were his angels. They contended against Satan and prevailed. Satan was then cast out of heaven by the Father. He was cast into this earth. The interesting verse is verse 11. Michael and those who sided with him eventually overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb. This is interesting because only those who sin are in need of the blood of the Lamb. Which is the blood of Jesus Christ. Thus those who existed in heaven and made war against Satan eventually came to this earth, sinned, and were in need of the blood of the Lamb. We know they became mortal because the verse continues and tells us that they loved not their lives unto the death. These children of God who fought valiantly in the pre-mortal existence, came to this earth, received a body made from the dust of the earth, needed the blood of the Lamb to overcome Satan, and eventually return to the God who gave their spirits as Ecclesiastes 12:7 tells us.
The spirits of those who followed after Satan were cast down with him. They did not receive bodies. This is why they try to possess our bodies at times.
Mark 5:1-14
1 And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.
2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:
4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.
5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.
6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.
9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.
10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.
11 Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.
12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.
13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand
14 And they that fed the swine fled, and told it in the city, and in the country. And they went out to see what it was that was done.
The evil spirits preferred to enter the bodies of swine that not inhabit a body.
So what is the nature and purpose of these spirits who existed before, who are the offspring of God and have come to this earth and received bodies? Stay tuned.
Grow up.
Do some Bible research.
Mickiel
Silver Member
- May 19, 2016
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So why do you bother to imagine all these notions about a God Whom you have never seen ??I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.
It is your own notions which create your own dilemmas.
From Philosophy we know that a God or several must exist. The 4 classic proofs of God tell us this rationally.
Aristotle even calculated about 45 Gods must exist to rule the visible night sky.
The actual number is probably closer to 100 billion -- same as the number of galaxies in the Universe.
But as to whether Heaven is just a big drinking party or if on the other hand it has rules -- Philosophy cannot tell us.
Buddhism and Hindu tell us that you keep coming back reincarnated as a lesser animal if you are evil, until you can relive your life as a good human again. Philosophically this rewards bad behavior with immoral lives -- so this being a contradiction to rationality disproves Hinduism and Buddhism as being rational.
Jesus spoke of Hell as a place that Pharisees and Sadducees would go. Do you think he was lying ??
Hell is needed as a reward for those who do evil -- murder -- rape -- robbery -- burglary -- vice -- slander -- libel -- etc.
What do you not understand about that ??
Do you just want the big drinking party in Heaven so much that you refuse to think logically about it ??
As you a Hedonist ??
In my view God will forgive and change the nature and life of all murderers , rapist , robbers and any other sinner; hell is just the grave plain and simple. And we humans need that change ; it is our destiny ; we all make it.
In Revelation 12 it is apparent that free will is an eternal principal. Satan was allowed to choose to go against God and others were allowed to follow after him. So this brings up a great question. Why does God allow free will? The answer to that question is because God wants us to become like him. He has command all of us to become like him.
Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
This brings up the question, "Who tells God what to do? or Who makes God do what he does?" The answer is obviously NOBODY! God does what he does of his own free will. He doesn't have anyone telling him what to do or how to do it. God is a being of supreme free will. He is a being who does good continually of his own volition. God not only wants us to do good and be good beings, but he wants us to do good of our own free will and choice. You can only be a truly good being if you choose in and of yourself to do good. You cannot force a person be like God. For a person to be like God he needs to choose good of his own choosing. This is the challenge of life. Are you willing to choose good over evil of your own choosing and mold your character to become like the Father? The Apostles of Jesus had this to say regarding themselves:
1 John 3:2
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Obviously the state of mankind is in an imperfect state. We are not yet like the Father. We do not always choose good continually. But it is clear that the way to become like God is through free will. You cannot be forced to be like God. It just doesn't work. God is a being of free will. For us to be like him, we must learn to choose good over evil of our own volition. Only then will we truly be like him. Satan didn't see it this way. He had a plan to take away the free will of God's children and force them to do good. So Satan presented a plan of force to the Father and the Father rejected the plan because it simply would not work. To truly be a good being, you have learn to choose good continually. Satan was wroth and tried to turn all the hosts of heaven against the Father
Abraham 3:22-28
22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.
24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;
26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.
Moses 4:1-4
1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.
2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.
3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.
It is obvious to me that the Father wants us to be like him. In order for us to do so we must have free will just as he has free will. And if we are to be good like him, we need to learn to choose good and do it because we believe it to be the right thing and love righteousness over evil. It needs to become our character to do good and know and understand why goodness should prevail. It needs to be woven into our characters by understanding it and experiencing it. We need to learn to repent of evil and seek forgiveness of wrong doing.
So we know that free will is an essential principle in becoming more like the Father. But if God is all powerful, all knowing, and an all loving God, why didn't he simply create us to be perfect like himself from the beginning. Why put us through all the pain and suffering that sin creates. Why not just skip that part and create us to be perfect so that we are just like him? I will cover this on my next post.
Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
This brings up the question, "Who tells God what to do? or Who makes God do what he does?" The answer is obviously NOBODY! God does what he does of his own free will. He doesn't have anyone telling him what to do or how to do it. God is a being of supreme free will. He is a being who does good continually of his own volition. God not only wants us to do good and be good beings, but he wants us to do good of our own free will and choice. You can only be a truly good being if you choose in and of yourself to do good. You cannot force a person be like God. For a person to be like God he needs to choose good of his own choosing. This is the challenge of life. Are you willing to choose good over evil of your own choosing and mold your character to become like the Father? The Apostles of Jesus had this to say regarding themselves:
1 John 3:2
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Obviously the state of mankind is in an imperfect state. We are not yet like the Father. We do not always choose good continually. But it is clear that the way to become like God is through free will. You cannot be forced to be like God. It just doesn't work. God is a being of free will. For us to be like him, we must learn to choose good over evil of our own volition. Only then will we truly be like him. Satan didn't see it this way. He had a plan to take away the free will of God's children and force them to do good. So Satan presented a plan of force to the Father and the Father rejected the plan because it simply would not work. To truly be a good being, you have learn to choose good continually. Satan was wroth and tried to turn all the hosts of heaven against the Father
Abraham 3:22-28
22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.
24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;
26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.
Moses 4:1-4
1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.
2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.
3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.
It is obvious to me that the Father wants us to be like him. In order for us to do so we must have free will just as he has free will. And if we are to be good like him, we need to learn to choose good and do it because we believe it to be the right thing and love righteousness over evil. It needs to become our character to do good and know and understand why goodness should prevail. It needs to be woven into our characters by understanding it and experiencing it. We need to learn to repent of evil and seek forgiveness of wrong doing.
So we know that free will is an essential principle in becoming more like the Father. But if God is all powerful, all knowing, and an all loving God, why didn't he simply create us to be perfect like himself from the beginning. Why put us through all the pain and suffering that sin creates. Why not just skip that part and create us to be perfect so that we are just like him? I will cover this on my next post.
I reject the author of "The Lake of Fire - Part 15"s premise. Free will, though limited does exist. All that is needed to have a degree of free will is to have more than one option to make a decision upon. If I tell my boy that if he cleans his room he will get a treat or if he doesn't he will not get a treat, then he has free will within that limited choice. If he did not have free will, he would not have a choice at all but would be forced to do one of the two. But a choice is given to him with two options. No choice would be to not have any other option. The author makes a mistake is trying to say that unless you can create your own choices without any consequence, then you have not free choice at all. In my example the boy is free to make his own decision between the two options. What would it be like if we all lived in a country where you could make your own choice to do absolutely anything you dream up without consequence? It would be nothing but pure chaos. Some would choose to abuse others and subject them to themselves. Certainly their free will would limit the choices of others. The sensible thing is to have a rule of law that is equitable for all so that the choices of some would not infringe on others. God rules in the heaven above and in the earth beneath. He has fair and equitable laws that promote the greatest degree of happiness and peace among those who follow the law. For those who choose not to follow the law, they are not allowed in his kingdom but must go to another kingdom which is inferior to live among those who are like beings. God will not allow the unrestrained free will of some to overthrow his kingdom of righteousness. Although God will maintain a universe of justice, equity, mercy, etc. He still gives those who are not at his level the chance to come up to his level and live in his kingdom. But they must learn to live according to the laws of his kingdom. If not, they will be sent to an inferior kingdom. They are given the choice between accepting a more free and higher degree of glory within the confines of his eternal law, or they are sent to a kingdom to be among those who reject the higher law and seek to be a law unto themselves. But God will not allow those who do not live according to his celestial law to overthrow his kingdom. He must maintain truth, justice, equity, love, mercy, kindness, etc as the ruling law of the universe. Otherwise there would be no heaven to speak of. Having limited choice is still free will as long as there is a choice to be made. On the other hand, unlimited free will without consequence only leads to chaos in the universe. I would at a later time want to make a thread specifically on the "Lake of Fire - Part 15" article since I find it to be a troublesome concept of denying the truth of having free choice though those choices are limited and are put before us by another.
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