Zone1 Why is it so tough to believe in God?

[Meriweather]

The only thing lacking is for you actually to give a testable claim of uniqueness, simply the claim it is, is what you offered. Ding has tried, so feel free to give an explanation in what way the Abrahamic God is unique.

Why ask me--or others. Ask God, or do the Word search on your own.

And I do know my history. So, I can say with certainty that how I looked and was taught my belief when I was being raised would have branded me a heretic 500 years ago.

What part did God play in teaching you?

 

[alang1216]

I am trying to help you understand it is not religion, government, business, parenthood, etc. that is the problem or the source. It is the world that is fallen and fleeting. Catholic teaching, and perhaps the basis of all religion/denominations, is to love the world, not for the sake of the world or even the people in in it, but for for the sake of God and His work of achieving the Kingdom of heaven here in this world.

Religion is great in theory but, like every other human creation, is a very mixed bag.

It seems to me you go through your day(s) totally ignoring the bits, pieces, places, actions of the God's Kingdom that are present/being built here in this world so that you may concentrate on everything that is wrong and throwing stones at the people and groups (of this world) who try (despite their own weaknesses and failings) want to be a part of raising/reconstructing all that is fallen from the Kingdom back into the Kingdom of God.

I respect and admire good people, wherever the are and whatever they believe. Every society and every religion has them but I don't see their good coming from any God, it comes from within them. I think a good Catholic would make a good Muslim, a good Jew, or a good atheist.

 

[alang1216]

What does good or bad have anything to do with it? Karma is about as mystical as "you reap what you sow".


I was referring to talking pigs. Anthropomorphism. There was never a time in the past when pigs could talk. There was never a time when serpents could talk except for the human sort. There is nothing mystical about that FACT.

Soul is just what people thought of as consciousness. You don't believe in consciousness? Is that too mystical?


How do I know that someone trying to tell me that I have to have blind faith in what I already know is impossible to be LITERALLY true is peddling pure bullshit? lol...

I'm smart. Awake, aware, and alive.


When you read a fairy tale did no one ever alert you to the fact that the moral lessons were never written down and are not necessarily directly connected to the literal meaning of the words used? You didn't just know that?

Thats a shame.


Don't worry. That never even crossed my mind. I'm a big boy! I can stand upright all on my own.

BTW, I am not trying to attract followers. I am showing where wrong and right and judgment lie. To free the dead in hells keeping so they can live their own lives without shame or guilt or any obligation to anyone including me.

I have given the fruit of my mind freely. It is pleasing to the eye and good to eat. Eat it and you will never hunger again.

I have done my duty and am content to let the chips fall wherever they may. My hands have been washed clean.

Can I assume you don't believe in ANYTHING supernatural?

 

[BreezeWood]

Then maybe you should also consider what people of no faith have done throughout history

more as the people that led the 1st century events their repudiation of judaism - false commandments, hereditary idolatry, religion of apartheid et al for their message of liberation theology, self determination the true secular heavenly goal to triumph good vs evil as the means to achieve immortality after judgement of their accomplishment.

no where found in any of the desert religions.

 

[Meriweather]

Religion is great in theory but, like every other human creation, is a very mixed bag.

That's what occurs in a fallen world.

I respect and admire good people, wherever the are and whatever they believe. Every society and every religion has them but I don't see their good coming from any God, it comes from within them. I think a good Catholic would make a good Muslim, a good Jew, or a good atheist.

The reasons a person makes a good Catholic, a good Jew, a good Muslim, is because we would all fall short at being good at any of the other two. I suspect you might mean that good Catholics, good Jews, good Muslims, good atheists all make good people. Whether we would be good people of faith in any other religion may not be a certainty.

 

[forkup]

Why ask me--or others. Ask God, or do the Word search on your own.

Because you are making a claim. One you aren't willing to test. You for some reason seem to be believe that it's my job to verify your claim. It isn't.

What part did God play in teaching you?

Since I don't believe in God none at all. And since as I said. Who you believe to be God would have almost certainly have been different if you would have been born in Saudi Arabia it's unlikely that it played a role in yours.

Either there's a unchanging God who exists but chooses to only reveal himself to a certain geographical group at one particular time, while hiding from the rest. All while that rest believes in different Gods while proclaiming the same certainty you are, and using the same type of arguments

Or...

God is a construct by man, and locally and temporarily fixed.

I know what the most likely answer is.

 

[GMCGeneral]

At least I won't be lonely since 70% of people in the world are not Christians. Also, I doubt that many who claim to be Christian really follow all of Jesus' teachings so Heaven might be sparely populated. Of course Christianity is all about forgiveness so maybe I'll get a pass. What do you think?

It's not about following the rules to get saved. It's about G-d Himself providing the only means of Salvation, and being willing to repent of your sins and submit willingly and totally to Him and His perfect Will.

 

[Meriweather]

Because you are making a claim. One you aren't willing to test. You for some reason seem to be believe that it's my job to verify your claim. It isn't.

I was responding to the Robert's claim that the God of Abraham is just one of all possible gods--a claim you seem to support. I was asking you to verify your own claim. Keep in mind, while I have not done a study on all the gods and goddesses of mythology, I have done a significant amount. I've also done a significant amount of Bible study. The gods and goddesses of mythology differ from the one God, also known as the God of Abraham. ding gave you a hand with what I asked.

If you are going to support Robert's claim, when someone points out a weakness, then surely it makes sense for you to do your own study, supporting that claim?

 

[hadit]

Let me address that.

The difference is simple: those things can be tested, and have been. I don’t personally test every pill or chair, but I rely on systems built on verifiable standards: pharmacology, engineering, regulation, peer review. My trust is conditional, grounded in reproducible results and accountability.

Mine is also based on results and what has been seen throughout history.

Faith, the way you’re using it, isn’t testable. It doesn’t rest on evidence, it replaces it. Religion asks for belief without verification. Science builds trust through verification.

God is not science, as I lay out below (in fact, He created science). Let's put it this way. Let's take God out of it for a moment and replace Him with an alien being that exists in higher dimensions that our brains are incapable of discerning (you can draw a 5-dimensional being, right?). That alien decides when, where, and how to insert himself into our dimensions, and what parts of him we will see. In that scenario, can man's science prove that the alien exists, or can it prove that he does not?

So no, I don’t live on faith. I live on justified conditional confidence. And that’s a very different thing.

I actually like that phrase, justified conditional confidence, so I'll probably use it.

I too rely on tested facts as well. Had there not been millions upon millions of miraculous events throughout history and including today, I would be skeptical. There have, however, been those events, so I believe. I have also seen things in my own life that convince me, and they're not always miraculous. I see you demanding proof before you believe, but when you are convinced and believe, more proof is forthcoming, and again, not always miraculous.

What I find interesting, however, is that the standard of proof keeps shifting. I literally had a self-proclaimed atheist (there's really no true atheists because they can't disprove God's existence, they can only really be agnostic) admit to me that God appearing in front of him and doing whatever should be sufficient proof of His existence wouldn't be enough, because he doesn't even trust his own experience. He would have to have other people tell him they experienced something. I asked how that was different from groups of people all experiencing God's presence the same way telling others what happened and he had no answer. Sometimes the determination to disbelieve something is so strong that no amount of evidence is sufficient.

God is not a science experiment, His actions cannot be replicated in a lab, and He acts as HE chooses to act, not as we direct Him to act. His presence, therefore, cannot be proven or disproven by man's attempts to quantify Him and in essence, put Him in a box. It is folly, then, to demand He show up and do something miraculous to convince people of His existence. I call that, "Do a trick" theology, and here's what would happen:

1. Yeshua the Christ shows up and stops the awful half-time show at the Super Bowl. Millions immediately cheer. He announces Himself, proves He exists and makes clear His intentions for mankind. Surprisingly, everything He says lines up perfectly with His written Word. He leaves deep scorch marks in the ground to prove He was there. A small percentage of the crowd refuses to believe they saw and heard anything and castigate those who do believe. Does Islam disappear, or do millions cling to their beliefs anyway?
2. Most of the people attending the Super Bowl are convinced that it's no special effect because they went down on the field and saw the burn marks, but within hours, online keyboard jockeys start claiming it was nothing more than an effect and everyone was hoodwinked.
3. A museum is built over the scorch marks and exhibits made of the videos and firsthand testimonies of those who witnessed the event.
4. Within a generation, a movement of millions are spreading the word that it never happened. Those who witnessed it firsthand produce photos and videos showing not only Yeshua's appearance, but the marks He left in the ground. They say to visit the museum and see for yourself.
5. Within two generations, it starts to become folklore. Just like Woodstock, millions claim they were there who were not, and they spread wild stories about it that did not happen.

Eventually, God has to do it all over again just to convince people all over again. Does any of this sound familiar? Talk to a Holocaust denier and see the effects of those who are determined to not believe. There are people still alive who lived through it, but are they taken seriously? Within a hundred years, there will be a sizeable percentage of the population that will look at the Holocaust as something that might have happened, but maybe wasn't as bad as people said it was, their reaction to it will be muted, and they will allow doubt to creep in, totally losing the effect that we need to prevent it from ever happening again.

Now, the question becomes, what would it take for YOU to admit God exists, and would that proof make a difference in how you live your life? Be careful, God has been known to show people exactly what they demanded He show them.

 

[forkup]

I was responding to the Robert's claim that the God of Abraham is just one of all possible gods--a claim you seem to support. I was asking you to verify your own claim. Keep in mind, while I have not done a study on all the gods and goddesses of mythology, I have done a significant amount. I've also done a significant amount of Bible study. The gods and goddesses of mythology differ from the one God, also known as the God of Abraham. ding gave you a hand with what I asked.

If you are going to support Robert's claim, when someone points out a weakness, then surely it makes sense for you to do your own study, supporting that claim?

That the God of Abraham is one of many gods humans have believed in isn’t a ‘claim’, it’s just a historical fact. We can literally list thousands of deities worshipped across cultures.

You responded with a different claim: that the God of Abraham is unlike all the others. That may be your belief, but it doesn’t address the empirical point or verify anything.

And even if the God of Abraham were unique among all gods humans have believed in, uniqueness doesn’t imply existence. It just makes the claim different, not true.

 

[Meriweather]

Since I don't believe in God none at all. And since as I said. Who you believe to be God would have almost certainly have been different if you would have been born in Saudi Arabia it's unlikely that it played a role in yours.

In my case, that is highly unlikely. If your hypothesis is not true of me, then it is not true of all. The best you can submit is that studies show that a great number of people who were born into a Muslim community follow the Muslim faith all their lives. Likewise, a great number of people who were born into Christian/Jewish/Hindu communities follow remain in those faiths all their lives.

You seem interested in science. When all expected conclusions do not match up to a proposed theory, there is more work/studies to do.

 

[Meriweather]

Either there's a unchanging God who exists but chooses to only reveal himself to a certain geographical group at one particular time, while hiding from the rest. All while that rest believes in different Gods while proclaiming the same certainty you are, and using the same type of arguments

Or...

God is a construct by man, and locally and temporarily fixed.

You neglect another study: It has been shown when several people witness the same/similar event, their testimonies differ. In fact, some find it highly suspicious when each witness's testimony is exactly the same as the others.

God reveals himself to many all over the world, but when the witnesses come together there are differences--as should be expected.

 

[Meriweather]

And even if the God of Abraham were unique among all gods humans have believed in, uniqueness doesn’t imply existence. It just makes the claim different, not true.

That's much better! As has been shown, the God of Abraham is different/unique from all other gods. Now we move on to God's existence where ding can better present the scientific evidence than I. I can testify that I followed the Biblical teachings of Seek and you shall find; ask and you shall receive--and found this to be true.

 

[rightwinger]

Is it because:

• Lack of belief we are lovable
• Lack of belief we are cared for
• Lack of belief God is an active agent in our lives
• Lack of belief we have a reason for being

What blocks people from believing in God? Why is it so hard to believe?

I don’t believe in magic

 

[hobelim]

Can I assume you don't believe in ANYTHING supernatural?

Every supernatural miracle of Jesus can be easily explained in a way that conforms to and can be confirmed by reality. Raising the dead, giving sight to the blind, feeding the multitude, healing the sick and paralyzed, etc., etc.

Pick a miracle, any miracle, and I will show you how.

That being said, consciousness itself which is incorporeal can be defined as supernatural. I know the jury is still out about whether consciousness exists outside the body and the material universe, but I have known for years.

And I already told you how you can obtain proof of the existence of my God, but I'm afraid its all on you to do it.

If you do don't be alarmed if you wake up one day after having had strange dreams of being probed by aliens.

lol

 

[Meriweather]

I don’t believe in magic

Neither do I. But magic has nothing to do with the thread topic.

 

[rightwinger]

Neither do I. But magic has nothing to do with the thread topic.

Afraid it does

Belief in God requires a belief in magical beings that nobody has seen.

 

[hadit]

Afraid it does

Belief in God requires a belief in magical beings that nobody has seen.

Actually, disbelief in God requires one to insist those who have testified to exactly that are all without exception liars.

 

[rightwinger]

Actually, disbelief in God requires one to insist those who have testified to exactly that are all without exception liars.

yup

Seeing is believing

Believing a wild tale made up by someone a thousands of years ago is a hard sell

 

[hobelim]

Belief in God requires a belief in magical beings that nobody has seen.

Nope. I have seen these magical beings walking in the streets of the city in broad daylight. I have even seen them posting on this board. The problem is that the dead see only what they want to see and know nothing.

I have seen the dead walking around like regular people. I have seen demons sucking the souls out of their hapless possessions. Angels being crucified for speaking the truth. And a brood of vipers in the White House.

Ghouls goblins parasites maggots rats and demons under the completed control of a creepy thing that creeps

THIS IS NOT KOSHER