Zone1 Why is it so tough to believe in God?

So.

When you are dreaming are you having a mystical experience and where is this happening? Not in what you would call reality.

true?
I don't believe so. I consider dreams to be random neural firings. Not reality and not mystical, just a random event.

Let me put it this way.

People can only account for 4% of the universe. That leaves a lot of space for things that might appear to be supernatural. Like radio transmissions might seem to defy reality or be magical flying through invisible airwaves.

But is a natural aspect of the whole.
The God of the Gaps? I'm not sure who considers radio waves supernatural. Just because our senses don't perceive it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
 
That’s Pascal’s Wager in costume: “Believe, just in case.” But here’s my typical counter.

What if God doesn’t reward belief without reason? What if this life is a test, not of obedience, but of discernment? What if the real filter isn’t faith, but common sense?

Maybe the gullible are being weeded out. Maybe the God worth following wouldn’t want followers who believe out of fear, coercion, or cultural inertia.

I would like this god better and I have equal evidence for him. Meaning... none at all.
Demoralizing the Goose That Lays the Golden Eggs

Those jealous of High IQs can't blame any god for natural disasters; they can only blame themselves for their insults and ingratitude towards the few people who could have prevented all that if they hadn't been humiliated and discouraged from childhood on.
 
Because you are making a claim. One you aren't willing to test. You for some reason seem to be believe that it's my job to verify your claim. It isn't.

Since I don't believe in God none at all. And since as I said. Who you believe to be God would have almost certainly have been different if you would have been born in Saudi Arabia it's unlikely that it played a role in yours.

Either there's a unchanging God who exists but chooses to only reveal himself to a certain geographical group at one particular time, while hiding from the rest. All while that rest believes in different Gods while proclaiming the same certainty you are, and using the same type of arguments

Or...

God is a construct by man, and locally and temporarily fixed.

I know what the most likely answer is.
Didn't Happen Because the Ruling Class That Owned Christianity Needed a Scapegoat for Their Own Tyranny

Jehovah claimed to be only the god of the Jews. The myth clearly states that, and the Christian myth states that the Jews' God sent part of Himself to be the God of everybody else. There was no reason for the Jews to be told about their god's plan for the non-Jews.

To avoid persecution, Jewish leaders should have convinced or bribed some Christian leader to preach that was the way it was.

To avoid persecution
 
In my case, that is highly unlikely. If your hypothesis is not true of me, then it is not true of all. The best you can submit is that studies show that a great number of people who were born into a Muslim community follow the Muslim faith all their lives. Likewise, a great number of people who were born into Christian/Jewish/Hindu communities follow remain in those faiths all their lives.

You seem interested in science. When all expected conclusions do not match up to a proposed theory, there is more work/studies to do.
What’s unlikely? You are you, so you can directly confirm whether the hypothesis applies in your case. That doesn’t invalidate the hypothesis, it just shows you might be an outlier.

Since I’m guessing you were born in North America, the statistical likelihood is that you’re some form of Christian. The exact denomination may vary by geography, but it’s extremely unlikely you’re Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist.

So tell me: which assumption is wrong here? Even if you personally don’t fit the pattern, look around you, the same reasoning holds true for the majority of people in your environment. That’s what averages capture: the general tendency, not the exceptions.

Claiming that outliers destroy the concept of an average is a misunderstanding of how science works. Science doesn’t deal in certainties, it deals in probabilities and the best possible explanations given the available data. Outliers don’t disprove a hypothesis; they simply remind us that likelihood is not the same as inevitability.
 
That's much better! As has been shown, the God of Abraham is different/unique from all other gods. Now we move on to God's existence where ding can better present the scientific evidence than I. I can testify that I followed the Biblical teachings of Seek and you shall find; ask and you shall receive--and found this to be true.
You do realize I didn’t concede anything here, right? I didn’t affirm that the God of Abraham is unique, I pointed out that your conclusion doesn’t follow from your premise.

What you’re treating as a victory is actually a correction: I showed that the reasoning doesn’t hold. Seeing this as a win suggests you’re more focused on claiming ground than on whether the argument itself is coherent.
 
@ding gave you a hand with what I asked.
No he didn't. See, he gave what he claimed where unique claims to the Abrahamic God. Only to be rebuffed by me citing similar claims but NOT by Abrahamic Gods and even different understanding of claims about Gods within the interpretation of the Abrahamic Gods. Directly invalidating his claims.

You can't claim something's unique when I can give verifiable counterexamples.
 
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Do either of you know anything about magic or anything about religion?
Yes and yes.

Supernatural = Magic.

You just don't like your favorite beliefs called magic. So you invent a new definition for the word for yourself.

Okay. But others don't have to and are not going to observe that.
 
You neglect another study: It has been shown when several people witness the same/similar event, their testimonies differ. In fact, some find it highly suspicious when each witness's testimony is exactly the same as the others.

God reveals himself to many all over the world, but when the witnesses come together there are differences--as should be expected.
Your analogy is flawed. In ordinary witness testimony, people differ on details of the same event. But in your case, the supposed witnesses don’t even agree on what the event was, where it happened, or what it means.

Imagine 10,000 people all claiming experiences beyond human understanding, but disagreeing on every particular. Then you single out number 9,973 and declare them correct, because of faith. That’s not how evidence works.

You’re ignoring both the implausibility of the claim itself and the fact that the witnesses contradict each other at the deepest level. That’s the epistemic trap faith creates: certainty in one account while disregarding the overwhelming disagreement in the rest.
 
Mine is also based on results and what has been seen throughout history.
I’m a student of history. What I’ve seen is not empirically verifiable evidence of God, but thousands of god-claims across cultures, mostly incompatible with one another, yet each asserted with certainty.

That makes the issue not just unfalsifiable in a scientific sense, but statistically implausible. With so many contradictory claims, the likelihood that any one is correct shrinks to near zero. Appealing to history doesn’t strengthen the case, it highlights the inconsistency.
God is not science, as I lay out below (in fact, He created science). Let's put it this way. Let's take God out of it for a moment and replace Him with an alien being that exists in higher dimensions that our brains are incapable of discerning (you can draw a 5-dimensional being, right?). That alien decides when, where, and how to insert himself into our dimensions, and what parts of him we will see. In that scenario, can man's science prove that the alien exists, or can it prove that he does not?
Science is a human framework for testing truth claims. Attributing it to God shifts it from epistemology into theology, which misses its purpose.

As for your alien analogy: you’re right that unfalsifiable claims can’t be proven or disproven by science. But that’s exactly why science sets them aside, they’re hypotheses without evidentiary value until a way to test them exists.

Faith says you don’t need falsifiability to consider something true. Science says you do. That’s the dividing line, and it’s why your analogy doesn’t rescue the claim, it just highlights the difference. A difference that you still try to deny by trying to attribute the process you reject as somehow created by God.
I actually like that phrase, justified conditional confidence, so I'll probably use it.

I too rely on tested facts as well. Had there not been millions upon millions of miraculous events throughout history and including today, I would be skeptical. There have, however, been those events, so I believe. I have also seen things in my own life that convince me, and they're not always miraculous. I see you demanding proof before you believe, but when you are convinced and believe, more proof is forthcoming, and again, not always miraculous.
You can use the phrase, but your use doesn’t meet its definition. ‘Justified conditional confidence’ requires tested evidence and conditional acceptance. The miraculous events you cite have never been empirically tested, so they’re not justified. And since you accept them as true without proof, they’re not conditional either.

As for your claim that belief brings more proof, what you’re describing is confirmation bias. Science looks for ways to disconfirm a claim; faith looks for ways to reinforce it. That’s the difference."*
What I find interesting, however, is that the standard of proof keeps shifting. I literally had a self-proclaimed atheist (there's really no true atheists because they can't disprove God's existence, they can only really be agnostic) admit to me that God appearing in front of him and doing whatever should be sufficient proof of His existence wouldn't be enough, because he doesn't even trust his own experience. He would have to have other people tell him they experienced something. I asked how that was different from groups of people all experiencing God's presence the same way telling others what happened and he had no answer. Sometimes the determination to disbelieve something is so strong that no amount of evidence is sufficient.

God is not a science experiment, His actions cannot be replicated in a lab, and He acts as HE chooses to act, not as we direct Him to act. His presence, therefore, cannot be proven or disproven by man's attempts to quantify Him and in essence, put Him in a box. It is folly, then, to demand He show up and do something miraculous to convince people of His existence. I call that, "Do a trick" theology, and here's what would happen:
My standard of proof doesn’t shift, it’s always testable, replicable, and falsifiable. If a claim doesn’t meet that, I don’t accept it as true. That doesn’t mean it’s disproven; it means I honestly say ‘I don’t know’ rather than claim certainty where none exists.

And yes, I can’t disprove God. But I can disprove specific god-claims when they make assertions that fall under the scientific method, claims about history, nature, or miracles that should leave evidence but don’t. Most religious claims I’ve encountered fall into that category.

That’s not shifting proof; that’s applying the same standard consistently.
Now, the question becomes, what would it take for YOU to admit God exists, and would that proof make a difference in how you live your life? Be careful, God has been known to show people exactly what they demanded He show them.
I don’t know, because no one has ever produced a testable, falsifiable way to verify the existence of a god. That’s why I don’t claim certainty either way.

What I do say is that specific god-claims fail when they make assertions that should leave evidence but don’t. And it’s not on me to prove or disprove them, the burden of proof always lies with the one making the claim.

That’s not evasion; it’s consistency. I apply the same evidentiary standard to every claim, whether religious or not.

Ask me to disprove Roman Catholic dogma or Islamic dogma and I can succeed, because those traditions make specific claims that can be tested against evidence. Ask me to disprove a vague ‘man in the sky’ concept, not so much, because vagueness is unfalsifiable by design. That’s the difference: concrete claims can be scrutinized, abstractions can’t.
 
That's what occurs in a fallen world.

fallen world is the desert religions that never corrected their vast errors to simply define and live the heavenly goal to sin no more - that obviously is not found in their false bibles.
 
Believing a wild tale made up by someone a thousands of years ago is a hard sell

weren't there actually two - and the books written about them benefit the tribe and people who believe their self indulgent tales and were never witnessed by anyone.
 
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What’s unlikely?
Your claim seems to be that since their are a variety of religions, and a large number of people practice the religion of their nation, family, or community, God does not exist.

How do various religious factions throughout the world/nation factor into the claim God doesn't exist? Would that same theory hold true for other claims? For example, would you be as quick to claim beauty does not exist because people can't always agree on what makes up beauty? What is the difference between the claims, "I believe that is a beautiful picture" and "I believe in God"? There are clearly reasons behind each statement that have nothing to do with physical evidence.

Another example: Some cultures do not place any value on gold. Others place a high value on it. Can science ascertain the value of gold by studying the mineral?

Beauty and the value of gold is subjective evidence, yet evidence just the same, and people do not dismiss it because it is merely subjective. The same seems to be true of how people view God. Some, due to subjective evidence place a great value on him. Some, despite subjective evidence, do not.
 
You do realize I didn’t concede anything here, right? I didn’t affirm that the God of Abraham is unique, I pointed out that your conclusion doesn’t follow from your premise.
Then state how God is not unique in any way. And, no, you did not point out failings in any premise.
 
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