Zone1 Why does anything matter?

[GLASNOST]

... what is life? Where does it come from? We really don't know .....

Exactly.

 

[skye]

What a bizarre question, OP.....

Some things matter...other things don't

Brain surgery it ain't.....

 

[GLASNOST]

What a bizarre question, OP.....

Yes,

Some things matter...other things don't

Naturally.

Brain surgery it ain't.....

 

[alang1216]

If that were true you wouldn't believe the creator isn't moralistic and providential because you have no evidence that the creator isn't.

I don't know what the creator is or isn't but I can see the universe is not moralistic.

But you do have evidence that the universe was directed according to the laws of nature and that the universe does give feedback in the form of consequences of choices. This feedback is the universe showing you that existence is moralistic and providential. That not all choices have equal outcomes. That some choices have better outcomes and that providence is predicated on doing the right things.

It is not the universe giving feedback to me, it is the culture we have created for ourselves.

 

[alang1216]

You always make a big deal about it when I use God instead of creator so as far as I'm concerned when I converse with you, he's your version of a creator.

You consider Yahweh to be the creator, I don't.

It's incongruent to say you don't know if the creator exists or not and then be certain the creator is not moralistic or providential. If you don't know the creator exists or not then you should not know any of the creator's attributes.

The universe I see is not moralistic, I can't speak for the creator of it. Maybe he/she/it does shoddy work?

 

[alang1216]

Morality is an artifact or intelligence. You are comparing apples to oranges. Do you teach your children to kill their cubs?

Lions have intelligence.

Do you teach your children that they should do the right thing and that doing the wrong thing has consequences? Have you ever punished your child before? If so, you were teaching them that their choices have consequences. So whether you acknowledge it or not you were teaching morals and providence. Which is exactly what your creator is doing in a way so sublime you can't even discern it.

When I disciplined my kids I always tried to be crystal clear about why. Did the creator of the universe create me and the culture I grew up in? Or just the earth I live on? Evidence linking the two?

 

[alang1216]

Morals are effectively standards. Standards exist for logical reasons.

The universe is constantly giving us feedback on our choices. Why can't you see this?

The universe is not giving anyone any feedback, it doesn't care what choices we make. Our society cares but every society cares differently.

 

[alang1216]

What would you have to see from the creator's creation to convince you that the creator was moralistic and providential?

A clear, universal morality would be a start.

 

[Meriweather]

The universe I see is not moralistic, I can't speak for the creator of it. Maybe he/she/it does shoddy work?

I am puzzled as to why you think the universe should be moralistic, as its existence is physical. I don't see the physical as moralistic any more than I see it as philosophical. What I see is an existence that has the elements of both good and evil. We have God's example of constantly bringing good out of evil. It takes awhile for people to comprehend is that God works gently through our time.

Perhaps the greatest difficulty is also understanding our own approach to the problems we face. The tendency is to approach all difficulties with the mindset of, I"ll take care of this by myself. There is a great change when, through prayer, we change that mindset to reliance on God and that in the fullness of time (the right time) all will be resolved. Sometimes our troubles need the Master's touch, and He is there for us.

 

[BreezeWood]

I am puzzled as to why you think the universe should be moralistic, as its existence is physical.

life is created through the heavenly metaphysical forces of the universe ....

obviously their spiritual expectations are similarly alive and well.

 

[alang1216]

I am puzzled as to why you think the universe should be moralistic, as its existence is physical. I don't see the physical as moralistic any more than I see it as philosophical. What I see is an existence that has the elements of both good and evil.

You and I agree. It is ding who sees morality in the universe.

We have God's example of constantly bringing good out of evil. It takes awhile for people to comprehend is that God works gently through our time.

Perhaps the greatest difficulty is also understanding our own approach to the problems we face. The tendency is to approach all difficulties with the mindset of, I"ll take care of this by myself. There is a great change when, through prayer, we change that mindset to reliance on God and that in the fullness of time (the right time) all will be resolved. Sometimes our troubles need the Master's touch, and He is there for us.

I'm more of the view of God helps those who help themselves. Depending on God is a retreat from responsibility. IMHO.

 

[ding]

I don't know what the creator is or isn't but I can see the universe is not moralistic.

Every major religion defines the creator as the source of existence. So now you know.

How do you know the universe is not moralistic? I provided my reasons for why I believe the creator is moralistic AND providential. What is your basis for believing the creator is not moralistic and providential? And don't just say you see no evidence for it. Tell me what you are seeing that shows there is no evidence for it.

It is not the universe giving feedback to me, it is the culture we have created for ourselves.

Incorrect. Choices and consequences are not related to societies or cultures. Choices and consequences are experienced at the individual level. The human elements define societies and cultures. It's not the other way around.

And you - and everyone and everything else - are part of the universe. You can't separate yourself from it. That would be like you trying to separate your kidneys from yourself. It's all interconnected as if it were a single organism.

And you still haven't addressed the fact that not all choices lead to equal outcomes. That is your feedback. That is how you are being pruned. That is how you are being taught. That is what is teaching you to be moral. That is what is showing you providence. At any point in your life you are the sum of your choices.

 

[ding]

You consider Yahweh to be the creator, I don't.

You have made that abundantly clear. You aren't a fan. I got it. That is why when I speak to you I refer to "your creator."

The universe I see is not moralistic, I can't speak for the creator of it. Maybe he/she/it does shoddy work?

Which you have yet to back up with any evidence. For instance, I see you as NOT being very intelligent. My evidence for that is that you don't acknowledge choices have consequences and that these consequences - good or bad - are teaching you lessons. And that making better choices leads to prosperity in all aspects of one's life. That is an example of what evidence and reasoning looks like. Not I see no evidence for your intelligence. That would be an unsupported assertion.

 

[ding]

Lions have intelligence.

Technically all life has some degree of intelligence or processing. Maybe try comparing apples to apples instead or oranges. Don't use stars and stellar formations to determine if your creator is moralistic and providential. Use them to determine if existence directed their formation. Use your experiences to determine if existence has a preference for your behavior. Use your existence to determine if your behaviors lead to success or failure. Because if you do, you can't help but recognize that your creator is moralistic and providential.

When I disciplined my kids I always tried to be crystal clear about why. Did the creator of the universe create me and the culture I grew up in? Or just the earth I live on? Evidence linking the two?

You aren't a child. You are an adult. If you can't understand that choices have consequences and lead to successful outcomes or failed outcomes, that's on you.

The linkage is that it is the same for everyone. There is a law of compensation at work and it applies to everyone. You are constantly receiving feedback on your choices.

 

[alang1216]

How do you know the universe is not moralistic? I provided my reasons for why I believe the creator is moralistic AND providential. What is your basis for believing the creator is not moralistic and providential? And don't just say you see no evidence for it. Tell me what you are seeing that shows there is no evidence for it.

I can't tell you what I'm seeing since I'm seeing nothing. If you enter a dark room, is there a couch in the corner? Maybe but you see no evidence for it.

Incorrect. Choices and consequences are not related to societies or cultures. Choices and consequences are experienced at the individual level. The human elements define societies and cultures. It's not the other way around.

Disagree. Society often administers the consequences of individual actions.

And you - and everyone and everything else - are part of the universe. You can't separate yourself from it. That would be like you trying to separate your kidneys from yourself. It's all interconnected as if it were a single organism.

Alpha Centauri and I are both part of the universe but our connections are negligible.

And you still haven't addressed the fact that not all choices lead to equal outcomes. That is your feedback. That is how you are being pruned. That is how you are being taught. That is what is teaching you to be moral. That is what is showing you providence. At any point in your life you are the sum of your choices.

Don't buy it. Not all choices lead to equal outcomes but not all equal choices lead to equal outcomes. Seems pretty random to me. I've been lucky but I might get hit by lightning regardless of my choices.

 

[ding]

The universe is not giving anyone any feedback, it doesn't care what choices we make. Our society cares but every society cares differently.

Sure it is. You just aren't considering what the universe is. The universe is all of creation. You and I are part of the universe. So is everything else. The creator - who clearly is intelligent - created a perfect creation that is self assembling and self compensating. Everything has unfolded logically and sequentially over time. Your learning from your experiences is part of that. Your lessons will be keep being brought back to you until you learn from them. This is logical. Existence is teaching you to be moral. Existence is showing you that successful behaviors naturally lead to success. That is providence. Your creator is moralistic and providential.

 

[ding]

A clear, universal morality would be a start.

Being forced to be moral is not moral. And morals are clear because morals are based upon logic just like all standards are based upon logic.

 

[ding]

I am puzzled as to why you think the universe should be moralistic, as its existence is physical. I don't see the physical as moralistic any more than I see it as philosophical. What I see is an existence that has the elements of both good and evil. We have God's example of constantly bringing good out of evil. It takes awhile for people to comprehend is that God works gently through our time.

Perhaps the greatest difficulty is also understanding our own approach to the problems we face. The tendency is to approach all difficulties with the mindset of, I"ll take care of this by myself. There is a great change when, through prayer, we change that mindset to reliance on God and that in the fullness of time (the right time) all will be resolved. Sometimes our troubles need the Master's touch, and He is there for us.

I'm using the word "universe" as a proxy for creation. I'm trying to show him that his creator is moralistic and providential because his creation is pruning him to be moral and showing him that being moral leads to providence.

 

[ding]

You and I agree. It is ding who sees morality in the universe.


I'm more of the view of God helps those who help themselves. Depending on God is a retreat from responsibility. IMHO.

Not exactly. See post #178.

 

[alang1216]

Existence is showing you that successful behaviors naturally lead to success. That is providence. Your creator is moralistic and providential.

No, that is reverse engineering. If I'm successful it follows that I engaged in successful behaviors. Duh. If the universe were moralistic, everyone who engaged in the same behaviors would be successful and that I don't buy.