Zone1 What is the message of the parables in Matthew 25?

[Meriweather]

God requires faith? Yet, he only has faith if God gives it to him? You get where I am confused.

We might possibly link this statement to the Parable of the Talents. The amount given to each man was from the Master. From there, two people built on what was already given them, and one just hid the amount given and nothing came of it.

 

[HikerGuy83]

I'm not sure why anyone would consider the quip about sheep and goats a parable. It doesn't tell a story.

That is an odd statement indeed.

Everything I read calls it a parable. So, you'll need to argue with all of them.

It does tell a story....to me anyway. Not sure what you are looking for.

And it teaches a concept.

 

[HikerGuy83]

We might possibly link this statement to the Parable of the Talents. The amount given to each man was from the Master. From there, two people built on what was already given them, and one just hid the amount given and nothing came of it.

But if the talents represent faith.....then they were expected to increase in faith

Because scripture has multiple meanings, I can go with this.

How do we increase our faith?

Earlier, there was a discussion of the gift offered us through the death of Jesus Christ. We can accept or reject it. Just how is it accepted or rejected.

It seems like the answers to these questions might be the same.

 

[norwegen]

While I appreciate that you might have that perspective, I don't agree.

Were you there two-thousand years ago in Judea listening to Jesus?

Do you insert yourself into other stories? A biography of Ludwig Beethoven, maybe?

 

[norwegen]

Only Jews can write scripture?

All the scripture in the Holy Bible was written by Jews and Israelites. As their age ended, they said that was it, per Revelation. No more.

Only Jews can write their autobiography. The transformed Israel of the new age (heavenly Israel, new Jerusalem, whatever) cannot continue their story. They - the foreign converts - can only do their own work for the Lord's kingdom.

 

[norwegen]

That is an odd statement indeed.

Everything I read calls it a parable. So, you'll need to argue with all of them.

It does tell a story....to me anyway. Not sure what you are looking for.

And it teaches a concept.

Saying he'll separate some from the others is not a story. It's just an intention.

 

[Quantrill]

Are you saying God is inconsistent?

What did I say in post #(73)?

Are you saying you don't believe the Scripture?

Quantrill

 

[HikerGuy83]

God is consistent in that He has paid for all sin, and thus it is His discretion when to forgive.

That makes no sense at all.

I tire of your blather.

This is pretty simple. Pretty black and white.

You seem to need to muddy things with contradicting statements.

Enjoy yourself.

 

[Dragonlady]

You give 'one liner' interpretation of (Matt. 25) parables. As though they are separate from any other part of the Bible. They are just how whatever you or anyone decides to interpret them. As I said...(vomit).

One knows they are on the right course to knowing the Bible, when the Bible is the basis for what they know. Not, 'what does this mean to you' bullshit.

If your understanding of what 'said' Scripture is saying is wrong, then your application is worthless. You offered no 'understanding of what Scripture was saying'. All you did is offer your 'application'. What it means to you. Sounds so spiritual but is based on ignorance of the Scripture. If you don't know what it is saying, then your 'application' is worthless.

You say 'waiting'. Waiting for what? Do you believe both Old and New Testaments? Do you believe the Bible is the only Written Word of God? Do you believe Jesus Christ is the Only begotten Son of God? Do you believe that Christ is God in the flesh, that Second Person of the Trinity...God?

Do you believe that Israel is the chosen earthly people of God? Do you believe that the Church did not begin until (Acts2)? Do you believe that the Church and Israel are not the same body of believers?

If you don't believe these things, then, no, you are not interested to hear. Be honest about what you believe.

Quantrill

I find your criteria offensive in the extreme. No the Christian Church and Israel are NOT the same body of believers at all, and they never have been.

"If you don't believe these things, then, no, you are not interested to hear. Be honest about what you believe." Who died and made you the one and only conduit for what the Bible means??? And of course there is also His teaching to 'Judge not, lest you be judged". You're both judging and denigrating.

I guessed you missed the part where Jesus spoke of humility, and compassion. Luke 14: 7-35. I haven't quoted the whole passage:

"7. When Jesus noticed that all who had come to the dinner were trying to sit in the seats of honor near the head of the table, he gave them this advice:
8;“When you are invited to a wedding feast, don’t sit in the seat of honor. What if someone who is more distinguished than you has also been invited?
9;The host will come and say, ‘Give this person your seat.’ Then you will be embarrassed, and you will have to take whatever seat is left at the foot of the table!
10;“Instead, take the lowest place at the foot of the table. Then when your host sees you, he will come and say, ‘Friend, we have a better place for you!’ Then you will be honored in front of all the other guests.
11;For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

Get back to us when you have some understanding of humility and compassion. Until then, you have nothing to say to us.

 

[Quantrill]

I can't tell if this is a matter of semantics or not.

I don't accept that you don't have a choice to believe or not.

But if one chooses to believe and does believe, what then ? You are saying that is not possible.

But the other is. I don't think that is correct.

God requires faith? Yet, he only has faith if God gives it to him? You get where I am confused.

As to your last paragraph, that sounds circular to me.

The messages of these parables indicated that "doing something" is necessary, so I reject your statement about not requiring some effort on our part.

It is not semantics. It is you putting the emphasis upon 'works' resulting in eternal life, that Scripture does not.

I know you don't accept it. Because in your scenario, the believers 'choice' is a work. He 'chooses' to believe. In other words, the person has weighed the evidence, and thinks the argument favors the 'choice' of believing. So, he 'chooses to believe'. That is not faith. That is reason.

That is akin to someone telling me they follow the 'teachings of Jesus Christ'. That means nothing. Do you believe, is the question. Not do you 'choose' to believe. Not do you 'follow Christ's teachings'.

One does not 'choose to believe' and then believe. One believes.

Yes, I know where you are confused. You want to make faith a work. That way the believer is required to do a work to obtain eternal life. The believer must 'choose' or reject. Thus faith is a work. But that is a lie. The believer believes because he is a believer, whose eyes God has opened. Thus when the message of Jesus Christ is given, he believes it. Not because he chose to believe it. He can't help but believe it because he is a believer.

Well, it is circular in that it is 100% guaranteed to reveal the true 'sons of God'. It cannot be faked. God knows those who are His. People can fake their 'christianity' all day long. in churches and 'forums'. But God knows those whose eyes He has opened to believe. They are his choice. And one can go to church all their life and be a non-believer and fool other people. But God is not fooled. His way is 'circular'. Fool proof.

You know nothing about what the parables of (Matt. 25) are saying.

Quantrill

 

[HikerGuy83]

It is not semantics. It is you putting the emphasis upon 'works' resulting in eternal life, that Scripture does not.

I know you don't accept it. Because in your scenario, the believers 'choice' is a work. He 'chooses' to believe. In other words, the person has weighed the evidence, and thinks the argument favors the 'choice' of believing. So, he 'chooses to believe'. That is not faith. That is reason.

That is akin to someone telling me they follow the 'teachings of Jesus Christ'. That means nothing. Do you believe, is the question. Not do you 'choose' to believe. Not do you 'follow Christ's teachings'.

One does not 'choose to believe' and then believe. One believes.

Yes, I know where you are confused. You want to make faith a work. That way the believer is required to do a work to obtain eternal life. The believer must 'choose' or reject. Thus faith is a work. But that is a lie. The believer believes because he is a believer, whose eyes God has opened. Thus when the message of Jesus Christ is given, he believes it. Not because he chose to believe it. He can't help but believe it because he is a believer.

Well, it is circular in that it is 100% guaranteed to reveal the true 'sons of God'. It cannot be faked. God knows those who are His. People can fake their 'christianity' all day long. in churches and 'forums'. But God knows those whose eyes He has opened to believe. They are his choice. And one can go to church all their life and be a non-believer and fool other people. But God is not fooled. His way is 'circular'. Fool proof.

You know nothing about what the parables of (Matt. 25) are saying.

Quantrill

Whatever

 

[Quantrill]

That makes no sense at all.

I tire of your blather.

This is pretty simple. Pretty black and white.

You seem to need to muddy things with contradicting statements.

Enjoy yourself.

So you don't believe the Scripture I gave you in post #(73)?

I haven't contradicted anything except you.

The Scripture has muddied your waters.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

I find your criteria offensive in the extreme. No the Christian Church and Israel are NOT the same body of believers at all, and they never have been.

"If you don't believe these things, then, no, you are not interested to hear. Be honest about what you believe." Who died and made you the one and only conduit for what the Bible means??? And of course there is also His teaching to 'Judge not, lest you be judged". You're both judging and denigrating.

I guessed you missed the part where Jesus spoke of humility, and compassion. Luke 14: 7-35. I haven't quoted the whole passage:

"7. When Jesus noticed that all who had come to the dinner were trying to sit in the seats of honor near the head of the table, he gave them this advice:
8;“When you are invited to a wedding feast, don’t sit in the seat of honor. What if someone who is more distinguished than you has also been invited?
9;The host will come and say, ‘Give this person your seat.’ Then you will be embarrassed, and you will have to take whatever seat is left at the foot of the table!
10;“Instead, take the lowest place at the foot of the table. Then when your host sees you, he will come and say, ‘Friend, we have a better place for you!’ Then you will be honored in front of all the other guests.
11;For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

Get back to us when you have some understanding of humility and compassion. Until then, you have nothing to say to us.

Of course you do. As does HikerGuy83.

I am not the only conduit for what the Bible means. That doesn't mean you are giving the truth of what the Bible is saying. Oh please, save the 'judge not lest you be judged' for ignorant 4 year olds.

(1 Cor. 6:2-3) "Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?"

We as Christians are to judge. And concerning the truth about what Scripture is saying we must be all the more quicker to judge.
Oh, I do have something to say. And am saying it. Your response means nothing to me.

Quantrill

 

[Meriweather]

But if the talents represent faith.....then they were expected to increase in faith

Because scripture has multiple meanings, I can go with this.

How do we increase our faith?

Earlier, there was a discussion of the gift offered us through the death of Jesus Christ. We can accept or reject it. Just how is it accepted or rejected.

It seems like the answers to these questions might be the same.

How do we increase faith: Practice.

One way to increase muscle strength is to lift weights--not just occasionally, but routinely. People do not qualify for the Olympics by sometimes practicing their skill/talent, but by devoting part--sometimes most--of their day to practicing. Chefs, fashion designers, teachers explore and investigate not only new ways, but past ways that have gone out of use.

Ways to practice faith: Prayer. Giving to charity. Kindness to strangers. Loving family members/those we live with in what is good (instead of taking them for granted). Being open to the Holy Spirit, asking/praying for kindness/love to enter our every thought, every word, every action. See a need? Fill the need. Blessing God in what we do, with what we do. Love, that is, wanting/working for the good for the other. Gratitude, thankfulness.

The gift offered through the death of Jesus Christ is The Way he taught. Before the terms Christian or Catholic came into use, they were followers of The Way. The Way is the gift, and we should evaluate how we are using/making use of it. Much of The Way is believing in redemption, salvation, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

 

[HikerGuy83]

How do we increase faith: Practice.

One way to increase muscle strength is to lift weights--not just occasionally, but routinely. People do not qualify for the Olympics by sometimes practicing their skill/talent, but by devoting part--sometimes most--of their day to practicing. Chefs, fashion designers, teachers explore and investigate not only new ways, but past ways that have gone out of use.

Ways to practice faith: Prayer. Giving to charity. Kindness to strangers. Loving family members/those we live with in what is good (instead of taking them for granted). Being open to the Holy Spirit, asking/praying for kindness/love to enter our every thought, every word, every action. See a need? Fill the need. Blessing God in what we do, with what we do. Love, that is, wanting/working for the good for the other. Gratitude, thankfulness.

The gift offered through the death of Jesus Christ is The Way he taught. Before the terms Christian or Catholic came into use, they were followers of The Way. The Way is the gift, and we should evaluate how we are using/making use of it. Much of The Way is believing in redemption, salvation, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

So, does accepting the gift translate to exercising faith.

This is the issue I have.

In college I had a running discussion with someone who tried to tell me that once you accept Christ...you are in. Nothing else matters or impacts that fact (that you are in). But that you were required to grow in faith.

I would always come back to....well what if someone claims to believe but does not "grow in faith". His response: Well, they never really believed.

O.K. So what if someone claims to believe and grows in the faith for 30 years, then stops? Well, they never actually believed. Say What?

That formula is very convoluted and seeks to protect a concept that simply can't be true.

When the young man approached Jesus and asked what he needed to do to gain eternal life, Jesus didn't tell him to believe.....he told him to sell his riches and follow him (Jesus).

 

[Meriweather]

So, does accepting the gift translate to exercising faith.

This is the issue I have.

In college I had a running discussion with someone who tried to tell me that once you accept Christ...you are in. Nothing else matters or impacts that fact (that you are in). But that you were required to grow in faith.

I would always come back to....well what if someone claims to believe but does not "grow in faith". His response: Well, they never really believed.

O.K. So what if someone claims to believe and grows in the faith for 30 years, then stops? Well, they never actually believed. Say What?

That formula is very convoluted and seeks to protect a concept that simply can't be true.

When the young man approached Jesus and asked what he needed to do to gain eternal life, Jesus didn't tell him to believe.....he told him to sell his riches and follow him (Jesus).

We may not be on the same page, but this is my understanding of those whose faith merely means one believes that Jesus died for their sins. That's all that is needed: I accept Jesus into my heart and believe he died for my sins. And anything further is a "works-based" ideology where one believes s/he must work one's way into heaven instead of believing Jesus did it all. Some went so far as to state all their sins were forgiven when they were born or conceived--forgiven when Jesus died. Those who believe Jesus died for their sins have nothing to worry about. One stated that once someone accepts Jesus, Jesus even forgives disbelief should that happen. (Once saved, always saved.)

One nun who taught us religion was asked if everyone experienced heaven the same way, or if nun and priests got a better experience than an every-day person. Sister laughed and said priests and sisters are just as every day as everyone else. She added that all would experience heaven to their fullest. She asked us, Do you want to be a full thimble or a full oak barrel? She advised us we should take our faith/relationship with in God seriously.

 

[ding]

So, does accepting the gift translate to exercising faith.

This is the issue I have.

In college I had a running discussion with someone who tried to tell me that once you accept Christ...you are in. Nothing else matters or impacts that fact (that you are in). But that you were required to grow in faith.

I would always come back to....well what if someone claims to believe but does not "grow in faith". His response: Well, they never really believed.

O.K. So what if someone claims to believe and grows in the faith for 30 years, then stops? Well, they never actually believed. Say What?

That formula is very convoluted and seeks to protect a concept that simply can't be true.

When the young man approached Jesus and asked what he needed to do to gain eternal life, Jesus didn't tell him to believe.....he told him to sell his riches and follow him (Jesus).

There are three possible states. One can be moving towards God. One can be moving away from God and one can be static in their walk with God. It's not a sprint. It's a marathon.

I believe very few remain in one state. I believe most people move back and forth between states. No one is all good and no one is all bad.

 

[HikerGuy83]

And concerning the truth about what Scripture is saying we must be all the more quicker to judge.

Yes...truth.

Like you hold the corner on that.

 

[HikerGuy83]

There are three possible states. One can be moving towards God. One can be moving away from God and one can be static in their walk with God. It's not a sprint. It's a marathon.

I believe very few remain in one state. I believe most people move back and forth between states. No one is all good and no one is all bad.

That is true.

However, the message of these three parables is that choices by the people in the parables influenced the outcomes.

There was no "accept and be done".

They made choices. And justice/mercy accorded them as much as they were able.

I have no clue as to how people can think that God can be arbitrary in his decisions. Those decisions are set within the strict guidelines of laws established long before the world was. And he can't alter them to suite his purposes.

 

[HikerGuy83]

I believe very few remain in one state. I believe most people move back and forth between states. No one is all good and no one is all bad.

Well try to bring this one back.

If we accept that Matthew 5:48 was a directive to us, then we are told to become perfect even as God is perfect. Some will insert other words for perfect and I am open to that. The more general point is that whatever it is....it is an attribute of Diety and we are directed to move in that direction.

Call it becoming better.

The term conversion or becoming converted is one I prefer.

So, while we do "move around", the over all goal is a direction towards whatever attribute the Savior is referencing.