Why do people still follow Mormonism?

[Blackrook]

There's no point in debating the difference between Mormonism and other religions here, when all religions are assaulted by forum atheists who think all religions are equally invalid.

This lack of discernment by atheists mean that their children will be more likely to fall prey to extremist cults and pagan worship and astrology then the children of those with faith in a mainstream religion.

 

[Disir]

There's no point in debating the difference between Mormonism and other religions here, when all religions are assaulted by forum atheists who think all religions are equally invalid.

This lack of discernment by atheists mean that their children will be more likely to fall prey to extremist cults and pagan worship and astrology then the children of those with faith in a mainstream religion.

Translated into: you can't refute it either.

 

[G.T.]

There's no point in debating the difference between Mormonism and other religions here, when all religions are assaulted by forum atheists who think all religions are equally invalid.

This lack of discernment by atheists mean that their children will be more likely to fall prey to extremist cults and pagan worship and astrology then the children of those with faith in a mainstream religion.

Psycho babble.

 

[ninja007]

You've yet to provide answers though. You just told me "have faith anyway" and refused to engage any of my points whatsoever.

no. I've said actually study it. Then ask the Lord.

the fact that you are bringing up issues that were addresses decades ago, which you would know if you did go more in depth, tells me you havent done any research beyond a quick search of some anti Mormon sites.

take for example the claim that there is no archeological evidence.it completely ignores the fact that Joseph someone managed to describe a path through the Arabian peninsula, including the name of locations, despite the fact that no one knew it had such names at the time he wrote the book of Mormon.

now the fact that the Bible has archaeological evidence is no big deal. We would expect it from a document we know is ancient. But the Book of Mormon having any evidence is a pretty big deal considering the way it was produced. If it were a fraud we would expect there to be less evidence over time not more.

you asked how anyone can believe the restored Gospel. The answer is simple. We've read the Book of Mormon and asked Heavenly Father whether it was true and have received a witness from the Spirit testifying that it is true. We've received revelation. We've tastes of it's fruits.

you cannot understand Mormonism if you are unwilling to read the Book of Mormon and other revelations for yourself and talk with the Lord about it. It's impossible.

I've read the Book of Mormon and as you, I've asked the Heavenly Father if it's true. The answer was "no, it's not true".

Now what?

Hollie, click on my link post 148. thx.

 

[Debunker]

[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]

What's the point of this thread continuing? The Mormons don't give a shit about any facts contradicting their position, as evidenced by their blunt refusal to reply to anything I've said so far. The other Christians just want to Crusade the Mormons. The only other person I've seen speak any sense here has been Disir, who apparently was a Mormon too until seeing why it was bullshit and having the guts to leave.

From memory " the Book of Mormon is the most correct of any book" nowhere does it claim to be perfect!

Since it is "the most correct" you will find "stumbling blocks" which you have obviously stumbled your self upon.

Proof is the antithesis of faith, as you so well exemplify!

So you admit that it's not true (even though you believe your own god proof read it). You just don't give a fuck about the truth.

My research is extensive, beginning with "Prophecy - Key to the Future" written as a Masters thesis. It contained gems such as what Joseph Smith prophesied a few days before the martyrdom.

There will be two great political parties in this country. One will be called the Republican, and the other the Democrat party.

These two parties will go to war ...

Now let's see how extensive your knowledge/research is:

How many years did this prophecy precede the formation of the political parties?

How many years did it precede the advent of the civil war?

In the D&C he also foretold the location where the civil war would begin!

[/COLOR]

 

[Hollie]

There's no point in debating the difference between Mormonism and other religions here, when all religions are assaulted by forum atheists who think all religions are equally invalid.

This lack of discernment by atheists mean that their children will be more likely to fall prey to extremist cults and pagan worship and astrology then the children of those with faith in a mainstream religion.

That's so silly.

You may have missed it but Mormonism as well as other religions make extraordinary claims to magical, spectacular and supernatural events. By posting your opinions in a public forum such as this, you have accepted the presumption that others will disagree and state those disagreements. Put your big boy pants on and accept that your opinions toward magic and supernaturalism are not universally shared.

Your opinions regarding gawds and "holy texts" carry with them specific references to partisan gawds and the men who created those gawds. There’s no reason to believe there’s anything “god given” in the texts. There are no original manuscripts, nothing to indicate that there were really “revelations” and no corroboration ever found.

For instance, is the Book of Mormon true simply because Joseph Smith says an angel recited it to him and told to engrave it on Golden Plates (which don't exist)? Is the koran true because it was supposedly dictated to Mohammed?

All of the various “holy texts” suffer from the same inherent weakness, which is why you can only believe in it based on faith (and that invokes just as many problems anyway).

Do you understand any of this? You have no facts on an issue, you are personally acknowledging your bias, and you are asking strangers on a public forum to help you justify your bias in your mind.

Doesn't that make you feel, at the very least, dirty?

 

[Blackrook]

There's no point in debating the difference between Mormonism and other religions here, when all religions are assaulted by forum atheists who think all religions are equally invalid.

This lack of discernment by atheists mean that their children will be more likely to fall prey to extremist cults and pagan worship and astrology then the children of those with faith in a mainstream religion.

That's so silly.

You may have missed it but Mormonism as well as other religions make extraordinary claims to magical, spectacular and supernatural events. By posting your opinions in a public forum such as this, you have accepted the presumption that others will disagree and state those disagreements. Put your big boy pants on and accept that your opinions toward magic and supernaturalism are not universally shared.

Your opinions regarding gawds and "holy texts" carry with them specific references to partisan gawds and the men who created those gawds. There’s no reason to believe there’s anything “god given” in the texts. There are no original manuscripts, nothing to indicate that there were really “revelations” and no corroboration ever found.

For instance, is the Book of Mormon true simply because Joseph Smith says an angel recited it to him and told to engrave it on Golden Plates (which don't exist)? Is the koran true because it was supposedly dictated to Mohammed?

All of the various “holy texts” suffer from the same inherent weakness, which is why you can only believe in it based on faith (and that invokes just as many problems anyway).

Do you understand any of this? You have no facts on an issue, you are personally acknowledging your bias, and you are asking strangers on a public forum to help you justify your bias in your mind.

Doesn't that make you feel, at the very least, dirty?

I am not a follower of Joseph Smith or Mohammed so I don't understand how your argument could be aimed in my direction.

 

[onefour1]

Joseph Smith was a con artist. He operated as if he had a right to sleep with other men's wives and underage girls.

Interestingly enough you ignore your own alleged witnesses and their relationship with each other. In order for Cowdery to enter into a lengthy confession then he would have had to admit his own part in fraud and deception.

Oliver Cowdery is excommunicated after he calls out Joseph Smith for having an affair with Fanny Alger. Not a wife. Not a spiritual wife. She is an affair. In the same house as his wife Emma. Fanny Alger is then hit on by Brigham Young and she turns him down.
Frances Fanny Ward Alger Custer 1817 - 1889 - Find A Grave Memorial

But, there is a little more to the story: Kirtland Safety Society Anti-Banking Company . This is the backdrop of the dissenters. Isn't that right?

Martin Harris publicly states that nobody saw any plates in 1838.

Whitmore does what? Starts his own brand of BS church.

All con-men. The reality here is that YOU should know better.

On his death bed, Harris said: "The Book of Mormon is no fake. I know what I know. I have seen what I have seen and I have heard what I have heard. I have seen the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon is written. An angel appeared to me and others and testified to the truthfulness of the record, and had I been willing to have perjured myself and sworn falsely to the testimony I now bear I could have been a rich man, but I could not have testified other than I have done and am now doing for these things are true."

Martin Harris on his death bed. Cited by George Godfrey, “Testimony of Martin Harris,” from an unpublished manuscript copy in the possession of his descendants, quoted in Eldin Ricks, The Case of the Book of Mormon Witnesses [Salt Lake City: Deseret News Press, 1971], 65–66.

 

[onefour1]

5. According to the Book of Mormon, about 600 years before Christ, a Nephite prophet predicted that "many plain and precious parts" (1 Nephi 13:26-28) would be removed from the Bible. In contrast, from the Bible it is clear that during His earthly ministry, Jesus himself constantly quoted from the Old Testament Scriptures, and showed full confidence in their completeness and accurate transmission as they had survived down to His time. Jesus declared that "heaven and earth shall pass away, but my word shall not pass away" (Mark 13:31; see also Matthew 5:18), and promised His disciples who were to pen the New Testament that the Holy Ghost "shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you" (John 14:26); Jesus further promised the apostles that they would "bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain" (John 15:16). These promises clearly imply that the fruit of the apostles — the New Testament Scriptures and the Christian church — would endure.

The fact is that the words of Christ and the Apostles have endured and have been with us since the days of Christ. It is known as the New Testament. But this does not mean that all of Christ's words and the words of the Apostles remained fully intact as they were originally written and that many of the plain and precious parts of the Bible have not been removed. If the Bible were plain to us we wouldn't have so many divided sects in the Christian faith. For this reason was the Book of Mormon brought forth as a second witness of the words of Jesus Christ. Although the disciples of Jesus wrote these things by the gift and power of the Holy Ghost, they have gone through the hands of many since that time and have been translated multiple times into various languages.

The bible mentions many books that simply are no longer in the text we have today, i.e. Book of the Covenant (Ex 24:7), Book of the Law (Deut 30:10), Book of Samuel, Book of Nathan, Book of Gad (1 Chronicles 29:29), Acts of Solomon (1 Kings 11:41), Shemaiah the Prophet (2 Chronicles 12:15), Book of Jehu, Book of the Kings of Israel (2 Chronicles 20:34), One of the Epistles to the Ephesians (according to Eph 3), Iddo the prophet (2 Chronicles 13:22), the sayings of the seers (2 Chronicles 33:19), etc. Certainly we can say that these are lost and I believe, in their original text, they were plain and precious.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

I read the OP and I found it to be chalked full of stale come-ons that anyone can find on anti-mormon site within minutes.

 

[Debunker]

I read the OP and I found it to be chalked full of stale come-ons that anyone can find on anti-mormon site within minutes.

I'm still waiting for op to answer a couple of simple questions.

Where O' where is OP?

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

I read the OP and I found it to be chalked full of stale come-ons that anyone can find on anti-mormon site within minutes.

I'm still waiting for op to answer a couple of simple questions.

Where O' where is OP?

 

[Disir]

Joseph Smith was a con artist. He operated as if he had a right to sleep with other men's wives and underage girls.

Interestingly enough you ignore your own alleged witnesses and their relationship with each other. In order for Cowdery to enter into a lengthy confession then he would have had to admit his own part in fraud and deception.

Oliver Cowdery is excommunicated after he calls out Joseph Smith for having an affair with Fanny Alger. Not a wife. Not a spiritual wife. She is an affair. In the same house as his wife Emma. Fanny Alger is then hit on by Brigham Young and she turns him down.
Frances Fanny Ward Alger Custer 1817 - 1889 - Find A Grave Memorial

But, there is a little more to the story: Kirtland Safety Society Anti-Banking Company . This is the backdrop of the dissenters. Isn't that right?

Martin Harris publicly states that nobody saw any plates in 1838.

Whitmore does what? Starts his own brand of BS church.

All con-men. The reality here is that YOU should know better.

On his death bed, Harris said: "The Book of Mormon is no fake. I know what I know. I have seen what I have seen and I have heard what I have heard. I have seen the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon is written. An angel appeared to me and others and testified to the truthfulness of the record, and had I been willing to have perjured myself and sworn falsely to the testimony I now bear I could have been a rich man, but I could not have testified other than I have done and am now doing for these things are true."

Martin Harris on his death bed. Cited by George Godfrey, “Testimony of Martin Harris,” from an unpublished manuscript copy in the possession of his descendants, quoted in Eldin Ricks, The Case of the Book of Mormon Witnesses [Salt Lake City: Deseret News Press, 1971], 65–66.

He went back and forth several times. The reality is that he was a conman and there was money involved. You don't have to like it but there it is. You got nothing.

 

[longknife]

Many ignore that the "modern" bible - The King James Version - is a total re-write done to make it "more enjoyable" for commoners to read. It was especially written in a style easy for the lesser educated to understand.

Compare it to the current Catholic Vulgate to see the differences.

And yes, there are thousands of references to letters written soon after the death of Christ that have been removed to where the common man cannot read them. A group of clerics decided they were too controversial for the masses to deal with.

Didn't Jesus tell his disciples that (sic) he was going to his other people?

 

[TSJohnson]

I'm still waiting for op to answer a couple of simple questions.

Where O' where is OP?

What questions were these? I dropped out of this thread about the time I realized that no Mormon was even going to try to refute any point I brought up. They were just going to turn their nose up to it and walk away, declaring it as a victory for their faith. I guess that's mildly better than when Christians act like the pigeon in the parable. At least you people don't shit all over my chessboard.

 

[ninja007]

have you read some of their beliefs? Totally unbiblical. Sex in Heaven making children? We can be like God, Jesus and Satan are brothers, etc...

 

[onefour1]

have you read some of their beliefs? Totally unbiblical. Sex in Heaven making children? We can be like God, Jesus and Satan are brothers, etc...

Matthew 5:16
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

So God is our Father in heaven. Did he not father us? He is the father of our spirits.

Hebrews 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

How do you know that God does not have a wife or that he procreates through the process of sex? Show me in the bible where that teaching is false.

Matthew 18:14
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

You don't think we can be like God yet God commands us to be like him.

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

And the bible says that we can be like him.

1 John 3:2
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

John 17:20-23
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Regarding Satan, the bible says:

Isaiah 14:12
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Revelation 12:7-10
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Although the bible doesn't declare Satan to have been a son of God at one time, he was certainly in heaven and rebelled against the Father and was cast down to earth. Only through continuing revelation do we know that he was at one time a son of God. He was once known as a Son of the Morning.

 

[Debunker]

I'm still waiting for op to answer a couple of simple questions.

Where O' where is OP?

What questions were these? I dropped out of this thread about the time I realized that no Mormon was even going to try to refute any point I brought up. They were just going to turn their nose up to it and walk away, declaring it as a victory for their faith. I guess that's mildly better than when Christians act like the pigeon in the parable. At least you people don't shit all over my chessboard.

Me thunk you playing possums, but seeing your post count is only a bit more than mine, I must befit you the benefit of any doubt as concerning your seeming lack as how to peruse a thread or utilize the search functions of this fine forurm. Seeing you appear to be of diminished capacity, I shall pose a similar simple question, and even supply the answer in the first line of a linked scripture heading.

When was the following written, and how many years did said writing preceed the USA Civil War?

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;

2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.

3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.

4 And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.

5 And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.
Here is said promised link: Doctrine and Covenants 87

I'll even supply that the Civil War began in 1860, hope simple subtraction yields you the correct answer!

 

[ninja007]

I'm still waiting for op to answer a couple of simple questions.

Where O' where is OP?

What questions were these? I dropped out of this thread about the time I realized that no Mormon was even going to try to refute any point I brought up. They were just going to turn their nose up to it and walk away, declaring it as a victory for their faith. I guess that's mildly better than when Christians act like the pigeon in the parable. At least you people don't shit all over my chessboard.

Me thunk you playing possums, but seeing your post count is only a bit more than mine, I must befit you the benefit of any doubt as concerning your seeming lack as how to peruse a thread or utilize the search functions of this fine forurm. Seeing you appear to be of diminished capacity, I shall pose a similar simple question, and even supply the answer in the first line of a linked scripture heading.

When was the following written, and how many years did said writing preceed the USA Civil War?

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;

2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.

3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.

4 And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.

5 And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.
Here is said promised link: Doctrine and Covenants 87

I'll even supply that the Civil War began in 1860, hope simple subtraction yields you the correct answer!

False prophecies of Joseph Smith

1. History of the Church
   1. Prophecy about Jesus' return within 56 years--"President Smith then stated that the meeting had been called, because God had commanded it; and it was made known to him by vision and by the Holy Spirit. He then gave a relation of some of the circumstances attending us while journeying to Zion--our trials, sufferings; and said God had not designed all this for nothing, but He had it in remembrance yet; and it was the will of God that those who went to Zion, with a determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, for the coming of the Lord, which was nigh--even fifty-six years should wind up the scene." (History of the Church, vol. 2, p. 189). See context.
      1. Jesus did not return within fifty-six years when 1891 arrived.
2. Doctrine and Covenants
   1. Prophecy that the temple would be built in Missouri within Smith's Generation--"Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion,i which shall be the city of New Jerusalem. 3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased. 4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation. 5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house . . . 31 Therefore, as I said concerning the sons of Moses for the sons of Moses and also the sons of Aaron shall offer an acceptable offering and sacrifice in the house of the Lord, which house shall be built unto the Lord in this generation, upon the consecrated spot as I have appointed."(Doctrines and Covenants 84:2-5,31.) See context.
      1. The Mormons were driven out of Jackson County in 1833. They were not gathered there in accordance to this prophecy dealing with building the temple.
      2. The prophecy clearly states that the generation present when the prophecy was given would not pass away until the temple was built at the western boundaries of the state of Missouri which is in Independence. This clearly failed.
   2. All Nations would be involved in the American Civil War--"Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls; 2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place. 3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations," (Doctrine and Covenants 87:1-3). See context.
      1. This is clearly another false prophecy since all nations did not get involved in the American Civil War.
   3. Prophesy that the earth will tremble and the sun be hidden in "not many days": "For not many days hence and the earth shall tremble and reel to and fro as a drunken man; and the sun shall hide his face, and shall refuse to give light; and the moon shall be bathed in blood; and the stars shall become exceedingly angry, and shall cast themselves down as a fig that falleth from off a fig-tree," (Doctrine and Covenants 88:87) See context.
      1. The sun hasn't yet been hidden nor has the moon hidden its face.
      2. This prophecy was given on 12/27/1832. "Not many days hence"? Since the writing of this article on 6/22/06, it has been 63,364 days or 173 years, 5 months, 26 days. I think that 63,364 days is more than "not many days".
         1. For reference to January 1, 2000 it was 61,000 days (even), or 167 years, 5 days.
3. Pearl of Great Price
   1. Prophecy that Isaiah 11 was about to be fulfilled--"In addition to these, he quoted the eleventh chapter of Isaiah, saying that it was about to be fulfilled. He quoted also the third chapter of Acts, twenty-second and twenty-third verses, precisely as they stand in our New Testament. He said that that prophet was Christ; but the day had not yet come when 'they who would not hear his voice should be cut off from among the people,' but soon would come," (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith, History, verse 40). See context.
      1. Isaiah 11:6-9 says, "And the wolf will dwell with the lamb, And the leopard will lie down with the kid, And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little boy will lead them. 7Also the cow and the bear will graze; Their young will lie down together; And the lion will eat straw like the ox. 8And the nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra, And the weaned child will put his hand on the viper's den. 9They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord As the waters cover the sea."
         1. This has not yet been fulfilled. The wolf is not dwelling with the lamb, the calf and the lion are not together, nor are the cow and bear grazing together. The lion is not eating straw like an ox. Nursing
         2. children are not playing in the dens of cobras.

 

[ninja007]

Joseph Smith s False Prophecies Founder of Mormonism a False Prophet Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry