Why do people still follow Mormonism?

[TSJohnson]

What's the point of this thread continuing? The Mormons don't give a shit about any facts contradicting their position, as evidenced by their blunt refusal to reply to anything I've said so far. The other Christians just want to Crusade the Mormons. The only other person I've seen speak any sense here has been Disir, who apparently was a Mormon too until seeing why it was bullshit and having the guts to leave.

From memory " the Book of Mormon is the most correct of any book" nowhere does it claim to be perfect!

Since it is "the most correct" you will find "stumbling blocks" which you have obviously stumbled your self upon.

Proof is the antithesis of faith, as you so well exemplify!

So you admit that it's not true (even though you believe your own god proof read it). You just don't give a fuck about the truth.

 

[Avatar4321]

And yet the Holy Spirit testifies that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and Savior of the world. And He testifies that Joseph Smith was a prophet of Jesus Christ. Why should we ignore these great witnesses from God because you say so?

Can you briefly tell of how the Holy Spirit testified Joseph Smith was a prophet?

study His words, ask God, and the Spirit will testify to you as well

His Word is the Bible, not the other books you guys have.

how would you know? You haven't read a word of it

I do know- if you knew your Bible you would know that it is true and no other books supercede it or are equal to it.

funny the bible doesn't say that. So where did you get this revelation?

 

[Avatar4321]

one usually doesn't get a criminal record when the charges are dismissed. Considering that Jesus Christ has a criminal record and He had no sin, why would we expect a mere servant of Christ to be flawless?

Gandhi and mlk Jr also had criminal records. And they were actually guilty.

He was convicted. He's a fraud. I showed it to you. You fled the scene.

he was repeatedly exonerated. The doctrine is true. Which is why you have to attack the messenger

No, Avatar. He wasn't. It's a fraud. He was a con man. It's not an attack. It is simply the truth.

that's about as true as a superman comic.

a con man who sacrifices himself for his con? Who gets no benefit from it? Joseph was a poor man throughout his life and even received a revelation telling him he would never be wealthy. But not shocking, when he ran his shop he lost money giving products away to the poor.

then there are his teachings. They make no sense for someone insincere. Take the work for redemption of the dead. How does building temples to redeem our kindred dead pull a con on anyone when no mortal benefits from it?

yet it makes perfect sense for Joseph to inquire about the salvation of the dead when his brother Alivin died before the restoration.

when he was asked how he controlled so many people, he told them "i don't. I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves". That doesn't sound like someone trying to con people does it.

and then you have to completely ignore the the witnesses. Take the witnesses of the Book of Mormon. Many had arguments with Joseph smith. Yet even leaving the Church, they kept testifying that the Book of Mormon is true. David Whitmer heard a rumor that said he denied his witness. So he calls the press to reaffirm it. Oliver cowdery runs for political office and loses because he won't deny the Book of Mormon.

have you ever read the letters between these two men? They aren't letters of people in on a con. These are letters between people who had real experiences. Not someone involved in cons.

how about the 27 people who participated in the vision of the three degrees of glory? Or the people who were healed by Joseph and wilford woodruff in the swamp at commerce? Or the handful that saw the Father and the Son in the school of the prophets?

impressive con job. Especially when you don't get anything out of it

Joseph Smith was a con artist. He operated as if he had a right to sleep with other men's wives and underage girls.

Interestingly enough you ignore your own alleged witnesses and their relationship with each other. In order for Cowdery to enter into a lengthy confession then he would have had to admit his own part in fraud and deception.

Oliver Cowdery is excommunicated after he calls out Joseph Smith for having an affair with Fanny Alger. Not a wife. Not a spiritual wife. She is an affair. In the same house as his wife Emma. Fanny Alger is then hit on by Brigham Young and she turns him down.
Frances Fanny Ward Alger Custer 1817 - 1889 - Find A Grave Memorial

But, there is a little more to the story: Kirtland Safety Society Anti-Banking Company . This is the backdrop of the dissenters. Isn't that right?

Martin Harris publicly states that nobody saw any plates in 1838.

Whitmore does what? Starts his own brand of BS church.

All con-men. The reality here is that YOU should know better.

considering you can't even spell David whitmers name correct, I find your claim at being at all familiar with the church to be unlikely.

and I've read over olivers excommunication complaint. That's not not why he was exed. However that didn't stop him from being rebaptized.

martin Harris continued sharing his testimony and rejoined the church throughout his life. So yeah he didn't deny anything.

all three were excommunicated for one reason or another. All three not only did t deny their testimony, they went out of their way to keep sharing it.

btw Joseph wasn't in Missouri when Oliver was excommunicated either. He was still in Kirtland.

 

[Disir]

He was convicted. He's a fraud. I showed it to you. You fled the scene.

he was repeatedly exonerated. The doctrine is true. Which is why you have to attack the messenger

No, Avatar. He wasn't. It's a fraud. He was a con man. It's not an attack. It is simply the truth.

that's about as true as a superman comic.

a con man who sacrifices himself for his con? Who gets no benefit from it? Joseph was a poor man throughout his life and even received a revelation telling him he would never be wealthy. But not shocking, when he ran his shop he lost money giving products away to the poor.

then there are his teachings. They make no sense for someone insincere. Take the work for redemption of the dead. How does building temples to redeem our kindred dead pull a con on anyone when no mortal benefits from it?

yet it makes perfect sense for Joseph to inquire about the salvation of the dead when his brother Alivin died before the restoration.

when he was asked how he controlled so many people, he told them "i don't. I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves". That doesn't sound like someone trying to con people does it.

and then you have to completely ignore the the witnesses. Take the witnesses of the Book of Mormon. Many had arguments with Joseph smith. Yet even leaving the Church, they kept testifying that the Book of Mormon is true. David Whitmer heard a rumor that said he denied his witness. So he calls the press to reaffirm it. Oliver cowdery runs for political office and loses because he won't deny the Book of Mormon.

have you ever read the letters between these two men? They aren't letters of people in on a con. These are letters between people who had real experiences. Not someone involved in cons.

how about the 27 people who participated in the vision of the three degrees of glory? Or the people who were healed by Joseph and wilford woodruff in the swamp at commerce? Or the handful that saw the Father and the Son in the school of the prophets?

impressive con job. Especially when you don't get anything out of it

Joseph Smith was a con artist. He operated as if he had a right to sleep with other men's wives and underage girls.

Interestingly enough you ignore your own alleged witnesses and their relationship with each other. In order for Cowdery to enter into a lengthy confession then he would have had to admit his own part in fraud and deception.

Oliver Cowdery is excommunicated after he calls out Joseph Smith for having an affair with Fanny Alger. Not a wife. Not a spiritual wife. She is an affair. In the same house as his wife Emma. Fanny Alger is then hit on by Brigham Young and she turns him down.
Frances Fanny Ward Alger Custer 1817 - 1889 - Find A Grave Memorial

But, there is a little more to the story: Kirtland Safety Society Anti-Banking Company . This is the backdrop of the dissenters. Isn't that right?

Martin Harris publicly states that nobody saw any plates in 1838.

Whitmore does what? Starts his own brand of BS church.

All con-men. The reality here is that YOU should know better.

considering you can't even spell David whitmers name correct, I find your claim at being at all familiar with the church to be unlikely.

and I've read over olivers excommunication complaint. That's not not why he was exed. However that didn't stop him from being rebaptized.

martin Harris continued sharing his testimony and rejoined the church throughout his life. So yeah he didn't deny anything.

all three were excommunicated for one reason or another. All three not only did t deny their testimony, they went out of their way to keep sharing it.

btw Joseph wasn't in Missouri when Oliver was excommunicated either. He was still in Kirtland.

It's the one reason or another that you aren't paying attention to.

Martin Harris said this:
"I never saw the gold plates, only in a visionary or entranced state." He didn't see jack.

What did Cowdrey accuse Smith of? Adultery. What was listed in the complaint? Accusing the prophet of adultery. What the hell is wrong with you? It's like you live in this brainwashed land of denial on a permanent basis.

 

[Avatar4321]

You've yet to provide answers though. You just told me "have faith anyway" and refused to engage any of my points whatsoever.

no. I've said actually study it. Then ask the Lord.

the fact that you are bringing up issues that were addresses decades ago, which you would know if you did go more in depth, tells me you havent done any research beyond a quick search of some anti Mormon sites.

take for example the claim that there is no archeological evidence.it completely ignores the fact that Joseph someone managed to describe a path through the Arabian peninsula, including the name of locations, despite the fact that no one knew it had such names at the time he wrote the book of Mormon.

now the fact that the Bible has archaeological evidence is no big deal. We would expect it from a document we know is ancient. But the Book of Mormon having any evidence is a pretty big deal considering the way it was produced. If it were a fraud we would expect there to be less evidence over time not more.

you asked how anyone can believe the restored Gospel. The answer is simple. We've read the Book of Mormon and asked Heavenly Father whether it was true and have received a witness from the Spirit testifying that it is true. We've received revelation. We've tastes of it's fruits.

you cannot understand Mormonism if you are unwilling to read the Book of Mormon and other revelations for yourself and talk with the Lord about it. It's impossible.

 

[Disir]

David Whitmer's spin off
Church of Christ Whitmerite - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

 

[ninja007]

Can you briefly tell of how the Holy Spirit testified Joseph Smith was a prophet?

study His words, ask God, and the Spirit will testify to you as well

His Word is the Bible, not the other books you guys have.

how would you know? You haven't read a word of it

I do know- if you knew your Bible you would know that it is true and no other books supercede it or are equal to it.

funny the bible doesn't say that. So where did you get this revelation?

yes it does. Sola Scriptura. Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other. 1 Corinthians 4:6

 

[ninja007]

Can I get a Witness to the book of Mormon

 

[Vandalshandle]

While I have always had respect for people who talk to god, I have always considered people who claim that god talks back to them to be flat out crazy, or charlatans. Some of these people say that god tells them things, like Pat Robertson and Sarah Palin. Others say that god gives them a "revelation".

I put them all in the same category.

 

[Hollie]

You've yet to provide answers though. You just told me "have faith anyway" and refused to engage any of my points whatsoever.

no. I've said actually study it. Then ask the Lord.

the fact that you are bringing up issues that were addresses decades ago, which you would know if you did go more in depth, tells me you havent done any research beyond a quick search of some anti Mormon sites.

take for example the claim that there is no archeological evidence.it completely ignores the fact that Joseph someone managed to describe a path through the Arabian peninsula, including the name of locations, despite the fact that no one knew it had such names at the time he wrote the book of Mormon.

now the fact that the Bible has archaeological evidence is no big deal. We would expect it from a document we know is ancient. But the Book of Mormon having any evidence is a pretty big deal considering the way it was produced. If it were a fraud we would expect there to be less evidence over time not more.

you asked how anyone can believe the restored Gospel. The answer is simple. We've read the Book of Mormon and asked Heavenly Father whether it was true and have received a witness from the Spirit testifying that it is true. We've received revelation. We've tastes of it's fruits.

you cannot understand Mormonism if you are unwilling to read the Book of Mormon and other revelations for yourself and talk with the Lord about it. It's impossible.

I've read the Book of Mormon and as you, I've asked the Heavenly Father if it's true. The answer was "no, it's not true".

Now what?

 

[timslash]

Why do people still follow Mormonism?
Because weak people need to believe in something which much stronger than they!
Like weak ancient people believed in people which fought the mammoth alone!

 

[Avatar4321]

so God is a demon? Exactly how do you learn truth if it isn't through study and revelation from the Holy Spirit.

was it a demon that revealed to Peter that Jesus was the Son of God?

the bible says to test all things and you say testing the Book of Mormon is demonic? Paul said that you can only learn the things of the Spirit by the Spirit.

I guarantee you that it isn't God encouraging you not to pray about the Book of Mormon. Because the Holy spirit encourages a man to pray in all thing.

or are you really so disbelieving that you don't think God the Father can answer your prayer? You really think praying to Him is to a demon?

your reasoning makes no sense. How is the bible any different? How would you know it is true if you don't ask the Lord? How can you know that Jesus is the Christ without the Spirit of prophesy? And how can you obtain a witness of that Spirit unless exercise faith and ask?

I know by the power of the Holy Spirit that Jesus is the Christ and that the Bible and Book of Mormon are true. Do demons now testify of Christ? Do they preach redemption through Jesus Christ? Can a house divides stand?

the Pharisees tried to convince the people that Christ cast out devils by the power of the devil. He didn't find that reasoning very convincing.

when we prophesy of Christ have we obtained they Spirit from a demon? When we heal the sick is that power a gift from the devil? Since when does the devil heal anyone? It's contrary to his nature.

read the Book of Mormon for yourself and you will learn more about Christ than anywhere else.

Yep. There are many anti-Christs and I believe the Book of Mormon teaches the worship of a false Christ.

Jesus of Nazareth is an anti Christ? That's a new one for me.

and you bases this off what? Not reading the Book of Mormon?

You believe in a false Jesus Christ, the primary meaning of anti-Christ.

The book of Mormon teaches the doctrines of demons.

so Jesus of Nazareth who the apostles testify to is a false Christ? And salvation through the blood of Christ is the doctrine of demons?

Same words and different meanings. You are talking about a different Jesus with different apostles. Ninja posted more information on why.

so if you believe a different Jesus and set of apostles than is in the Bible, which ones do you believe?

 

[Avatar4321]

This was an interesting thread. All it's proven to me so far is that most rank and file Mormons just don't give a shit about facts if they get in the way of the story, anyone presenting those facts is to be branded an "anti-Mormon troll" and completely ignored until they stop causing mental discomfort, former Mormons are considered even worse anti-Mormons not worth listening to until they apologize for trying to think for themselves and fall back in line, and Christians in general still love sectarian conflict and would be at each other like Muslims again if they were still allowed to be.

Thanks for clearing that up, everyone!

funny. You haven't presented facts to deal with. I'm fact you've been quite clear that you don't give a damn about the facts

 

[Avatar4321]

no wonder why mitt didn't want to talk about his religion

His religion was irrelevant. His morality and his leadership experience was. What qualified barack obama to be POTUS in 2008?

His religion was relevant.

I agree. It's what made him a decent human being and qualified him to be president over obama

 

[Avatar4321]

What's the point of this thread continuing? The Mormons don't give a shit about any facts contradicting their position, as evidenced by their blunt refusal to reply to anything I've said so far. The other Christians just want to Crusade the Mormons. The only other person I've seen speak any sense here has been Disir, who apparently was a Mormon too until seeing why it was bullshit and having the guts to leave.

so you believe the least accurate person here.

you wanted an answer to your question or pretended to. When you actually want to know the answer you will read the Book or Mormon and do some actual research

 

[Avatar4321]

I was baptized and raised a Mormon. I actively took part in until I enlisted in the US Army. I have never turned from the teachings and only feel that I no longer wish to actively participate.

I think the LDS church presents the best possible source of guidance when growing up and prepares children to be responsible and educated adults.

My own reason for not participating? I never liked the public standing up and sharing my beliefs and experiences before an audience.

well we still love you even if you don't come.

 

[Avatar4321]

Oh, I have family that are die hard Mormons and some that look at it through rose colored glasses but no longer participate.

I noticed this summer when I saw some of those looking through rose colored glasses that they sure did love those teachings..........as they drank coffee and sipped on beer and had a few cigarettes smoked while they passed chocolate.

Yep, those teachings. Yum.

there is no prohibition on chocolate, is more of an indication that you don't know what you're talking about

 

[Disir]

Oh, I have family that are die hard Mormons and some that look at it through rose colored glasses but no longer participate.

I noticed this summer when I saw some of those looking through rose colored glasses that they sure did love those teachings..........as they drank coffee and sipped on beer and had a few cigarettes smoked while they passed chocolate.

Yep, those teachings. Yum.

there is no prohibition on chocolate, is more of an indication that you don't know what you're talking about

We had carob instead and at the time it was believed caffeine was in chocolate. Lovely stuff. Other than that, you can't refute a damn thing I said because you know it is true.

 

[Disir]

What's the point of this thread continuing? The Mormons don't give a shit about any facts contradicting their position, as evidenced by their blunt refusal to reply to anything I've said so far. The other Christians just want to Crusade the Mormons. The only other person I've seen speak any sense here has been Disir, who apparently was a Mormon too until seeing why it was bullshit and having the guts to leave.

so you believe the least accurate person here.

you wanted an answer to your question or pretended to. When you actually want to know the answer you will read the Book or Mormon and do some actual research

I'm quite accurate. You just don't like it. Too bad.

 

[TSJohnson]

funny. You haven't presented facts to deal with. I'm fact you've been quite clear that you don't give a damn about the facts

I've presented the facts repeatedly. You've repeatedly declined to engage them beyond telling me to stop letting them get in the way of a good story and making some lame attempts at going "yeah well the Book of Mormon doesn't claim to be true so that's how you know it's true!!!" Let me list for you, again, all of the facts I've brought up so far:

• The multiple versions he gave about his first vision after the Kirtland bank failed and people were leaving his church. Was he twelve? Fifteen? Sixteen? Did he live in Manchester, or Palmyra? Fuck knows, because he claimed it all.
• He had forty other "wives", many of whom were already married, one of whom was 14 years old, and none of whom he ever told his actual wife Emma about.
• The church supposedly being led by the omniscient, omnipresent father of humanity broke into schism as soon as its founder died. Key "witnesses" founded their own competing churches. His own wife and son founded their own. Part of Joseph Jr's was getting rid of polygamy. The main faction, led by Brigham Young, kept it and went farther west.
• The church's history of receiving the most convenient revelations possible. Black people were barred from leadership roles up until God suddenly changed his mind right around the Civil Rights era. Polygamy was God's permanently restored divine institution until he decided to be against it after all as soon as scrapping prophetic tradition became a requirement for Utah's statehood.
• Joe's habit of making what would become totally transparently false statements, like that a random Native American corpse was a great Nephite general, or that these brass plates some farmers made to prank him were genuine ancient records of the Plains Jews. One book of LDS Scripture, the Book of Abraham, is even well known to be a mistranslated pagan Egyptian funerary spell book called the Book of Breathings. The actual translation is easily available. It's more fun to go with his companion book, Egyptian Alphabet
• Joe's tendency to make and write things that would turn out to have been fucking stupid in hindsight. His paramilitary private army, Zion's Camp, found a random Native American corpse in a burial mound. He proclaimed him to have been a great Nephite general named Zelph. Some farmers in Kinderhook, Illinois etched some brass plates with weird symbols and buried them in a mound to prank him. He took the bait and declared them an authentic record of the ancient Jews of the Great Plains. He claimed to know Egyptian and even wrote a book on the subject at a time when it was still one of the social sciences' great mysteries and based a book of LDS scripture, the Book of Abraham, on it and some papyrus he bought from a traveling salesman. These were eagerly sent to Egyptologists by church leadership as soon as the Rosetta Stone enabled the Egyptian language to be deciphered by science. They were sent back with a "no sorry, literally none of this is accurate in any way". Leadership then buried this episode for over a century, just like all the other embarrassing events in church history.
• He already had a reputation for his imagination, dishonesty, and familiarity with less mainstream religious beliefs like Swedenborg's New Church as a kid and young adult. Much of what he was familiar with before the church, like Heaven having three tiers and eternal marriage, went into its doctrine. So did a lot of the ideas he learned in the Freemasons. Ever wonder why you're not allowed to join them?
• Almost nobody was allowed to see his supposed plates. They "were taken back up to Heaven" when people started demanding he furnish them.
• He lost the entire Book of Lehi right after he finished writing it. It was okay, though, because he could replace it with a better version. He didn't even need to see the plates to translate that one. He could totally translate them in his room while they were still hidden in the woods. He was telepathic I guess.
• His full translation of the Book of Mormon still didn't require actually looking at them. They required that he put his magic rock in a hat, put the hat on his face, and spell out words letter by letter to his "scribe" on the other side of the curtain. Divine or not, that's just fucking weird. The book produced by it turned out to be similar to the religious/historical fiction he liked to read. It's kind of like how all of L. Ron Hubbard's favorite science fiction novels were actually true.
• The book's plot was about these ancient Jewish kingdoms in the Americas. One of the last battles was fought near the Cumorah Hill he "found" the plates in. Archaeologists, linguistics, geneticists, and other related scientists went looking for ruins and other traces of these kingdoms. Literally nothing was ever found to support it. No cities, no pottery, no genetic evidence, not even any skeletons or artifacts near Cumorah Hill. So... what does the LDS Church do? Write it off as not looking in the right places. Obviously the Cumorah Hill the plates were found under wasn't the same one the book is talking about. Obviously the countries that Joe said were in North America were in the Yucatan. Obviously horses are tapirs and steel is obsidian. Obviously whatever needs to be said so as not to admit the fraud can, must, and will be said.
• As a bonus point, the Book of Mormon was allegedly revealed word by word and punctuation mark by fucking punctuation mark by the omniscient lord of the universe. The first edition was declared "singularly free from typographical errors" by LDS historian B. H. Roberts. It's since had almost four thousand revisions, many but not all of which were to correct spelling and grammar. I guess your god dropped out of school at the same grade as his inventor?