Why did the holocaust occur?

[Sunni Man]

I would like to see all forms of anti-semitism stamped out.

But untill the jews figure out what they are doing to cause it.

I am afraid it will continue to keep comming back and victimizing both jews and non jews alike.

 

[germanguy]

Depends how you define assimilation.
In regards of the Jews it was a two - way thing.
They needed to be accepted as equal citizens and they needed to accept german citizenship.
But actually there was no proper distinction between a german jew and a non-jewish german. The german jews formed an important part of the german culture (just see how they added to the success of Hollywood - Billy Wilder and Lubitsch I only name).
So they were mostly not someone apart, but in the heart of it. We have thrown that away and this is the even sadder part of the story.

Before the 19th century this was different. In the best cases they were "Schutzjuden", special subjects under protection of the Emperor or local king / prince and therefore with a somewhat shaky status. Also they had limited rights and certain duties to fulfil.
In the middle ages this was even worse, when they were in ghettos and subject to constant danger in many parts.

So, in the period when the nation states were formed, the vast majority of jews in germany became german jews. Somewhat restrained still, but undoubted an important part of what germany was then.
So actually antisemitism formed a problem where there mostly was no problem any more.

IMO the Holocaust changed that deceisively, as now Zionism gave a way out of this process. But with that I touch thin ice, as my knowledge about this subject is limited.

regards
the germanguy

You have hit on a number of very interesting points. I think you are absolutely correct that there was no proper distinction between Jewish and non-Jewish Germans pre-WWII (unlike in the Soviet Union where there were separate passports for Soviets and Jews). That Jews were an integral part of German society and made huge contributions to, and derived great benefit from, German society is incontrovertible. I think that is part of the horror of what later happened post WWI ... at least from a Jewish perspective. It served as a reminder that if things go bad economically or a scapegoat is needed, Jews are not safe. It is one of the reasons that when certain people say they don't understand the need for a Jewish state or think Jews would ever be safe living in a muslim dominated society (e.g, after natural birth rate differences would leave an arab israel if there were ever a "right of return" or a single state solution in the mid east) that it is perceived as anti-semitism.

I have enjoyed watching your conversation on this topic.

Now we come to a very important point:

The Holocaust and Israel.
Before 1933 nearly every german jew has seen himself undoubtly first and foremost as a german. Most of them were very patriotic and proud of being part of a cultured and respected society. This was not necessarily seen likewise by some germans, so partly this love still was one-sided.
One century before, the great german poet Heinrich Heine (learn german and read his poems. nuff said) was a good example of this mixed status. (*)
Then the Nazis told everybody that jews were no germans and this quite finally ended this lovestory.
After the holocaust, Zionism and the very existence of Israel seemed suddenly a very good idea. In 1929 you needed to be very enthusiastic to settle in Palestine, after 1945 it was rather a matter of life or death.
Therefore - I do believe - what Israel is today it mostly is because of the Holocaust.
Before 1933 the german jews considered themselves to be safe and well within germany.
After 1945 this ended.

Today I know, that a lot Israelis still have a german passport and see this as a safeguard in case of a new war in the Middle East.
(Germany took away the status as german citizen in 1936 and after 1949 the Fed. Republic cancelled this law. Whoever has german ancestors can easily apply for german citizenship)

Regards
ze germanguy


__________________________________
(*)
I can not help but express my total love and devotion to this poet.
Not only are his poems by far the most beautiful I know, but he also represented everything what is good in germany. Spirit, wit, deep thinking and beautiful romantic poetry.

Read him, read about him - it will enrich your life. Or leave it. He can stand it.

Just to give you an idea, three citations:

Heine exiled to France and was critized, because his republican views were opposed by some germans as unpatriotic and anti-german.

His answer:

"Plant the black, red, gold banner at the summit of the German idea, make it the standard of free mankind, and I will shed my dear heart’s blood for it. Rest assured, I love the Fatherland just as much as you do."

Also he wrote 1834 these prophetic words - they give me a shiver everytime i read them.
Imagine: 99 years before Hitler:

"Christianity - and that is its greatest merit - has somewhat mitigated that brutal germanic love of war, but it could not destroy it. Should that subduing talisman, the cross, be shattered, the frenzied madness of the ancient warriors, that insane Berserk rage of which Nordic bards have spoken and sung so often, will once more burst into flame. This talisman is fragile, and the day will come when it will collapse miserably. Then the ancient stony gods will rise from the forgotten debris and rub the dust of a thousand years from their eyes, and finally Thor with his giant hammer will jump up and smash the Gothic cathedrals. (...)
Do not smile at my advice -- the advice of a dreamer who warns you against Kantians, Fichteans, and philosophers of nature. Do not smile at the visionary who anticipates the same revolution in the realm of the visible as has taken place in the spiritual. Thought precedes action as lightning precedes thunder. German thunder is of true Germanic character; it is not very nimble, but rumbles along ponderously. Yet, it will come and when you hear a crashing such as never before has been heard in the world's history, then you know that the German thunderbolt has fallen at last. At that uproar the eagles of the air will drop dead, and lions in the remotest deserts of Africa will hide in their royal dens. A play will be performed in Germany which will make the French Revolution look like an innocent idyll."


Also he had a sharp wit - which did not make him popular with everybody:
"I do not know if she was virtuous, but she was ugly, and with a woman that is half the battle."

 

[mdn2000]

I would like to see all forms of anti-semitism stamped out.

But untill the jews figure out what they are doing to cause it.

I am afraid it will continue to keep comming back and victimizing both jews and non jews alike.

Than once we get rid of the Jews, who is next.

The real problem is all the terrorism is committed by Sunni moslems. What are we to do about the Sunni problem.

I cant think of one terrorist who is not a Sunni, when I read of Moslem kills daughter its always a Sunni moslem.

Without a doubt Sunni Molsems are the worst, Sunni are the radical terrorist.

 

[mdn2000]

Depends how you define assimilation.
In regards of the Jews it was a two - way thing.
They needed to be accepted as equal citizens and they needed to accept german citizenship.
But actually there was no proper distinction between a german jew and a non-jewish german. The german jews formed an important part of the german culture (just see how they added to the success of Hollywood - Billy Wilder and Lubitsch I only name).
So they were mostly not someone apart, but in the heart of it. We have thrown that away and this is the even sadder part of the story.

Before the 19th century this was different. In the best cases they were "Schutzjuden", special subjects under protection of the Emperor or local king / prince and therefore with a somewhat shaky status. Also they had limited rights and certain duties to fulfil.
In the middle ages this was even worse, when they were in ghettos and subject to constant danger in many parts.

So, in the period when the nation states were formed, the vast majority of jews in germany became german jews. Somewhat restrained still, but undoubted an important part of what germany was then.
So actually antisemitism formed a problem where there mostly was no problem any more.

IMO the Holocaust changed that deceisively, as now Zionism gave a way out of this process. But with that I touch thin ice, as my knowledge about this subject is limited.

regards
the germanguy

You have hit on a number of very interesting points. I think you are absolutely correct that there was no proper distinction between Jewish and non-Jewish Germans pre-WWII (unlike in the Soviet Union where there were separate passports for Soviets and Jews). That Jews were an integral part of German society and made huge contributions to, and derived great benefit from, German society is incontrovertible. I think that is part of the horror of what later happened post WWI ... at least from a Jewish perspective. It served as a reminder that if things go bad economically or a scapegoat is needed, Jews are not safe. It is one of the reasons that when certain people say they don't understand the need for a Jewish state or think Jews would ever be safe living in a muslim dominated society (e.g, after natural birth rate differences would leave an arab israel if there were ever a "right of return" or a single state solution in the mid east) that it is perceived as anti-semitism.

I have enjoyed watching your conversation on this topic.

Now we come to a very important point:

The Holocaust and Israel.
Before 1933 nearly every german jew has seen himself undoubtly first and foremost as a german. Most of them were very patriotic and proud of being part of a cultured and respected society. This was not necessarily seen likewise by some germans, so partly this love still was one-sided.
One century before, the great german poet Heinrich Heine (learn german and read his poems. nuff said) was a good example of this mixed status. (*)
Then the Nazis told everybody that jews were no germans and this quite finally ended this lovestory.
After the holocaust, Zionism and the very existence of Israel seemed suddenly a very good idea. In 1929 you needed to be very enthusiastic to settle in Palestine, after 1945 it was rather a matter of life or death.
Therefore - I do believe - what Israel is today it mostly is because of the Holocaust.
Before 1933 the german jews considered themselves to be safe and well within germany.
After 1945 this ended.

Today I know, that a lot Israelis still have a german passport and see this as a safeguard in case of a new war in the Middle East.
(Germany took away the status as german citizen in 1936 and after 1949 the Fed. Republic cancelled this law. Whoever has german ancestors can easily apply for german citizenship)

Regards
ze germanguy


__________________________________
(*)
I can not help but express my total love and devotion to this poet.
Not only are his poems by far the most beautiful I know, but he also represented everything what is good in germany. Spirit, wit, deep thinking and beautiful romantic poetry.

Read him, read about him - it will enrich your life. Or leave it. He can stand it.

Just to give you an idea, three citations:

Heine exiled to France and was critized, because his republican views were opposed by some germans as unpatriotic and anti-german.

His answer:

"Plant the black, red, gold banner at the summit of the German idea, make it the standard of free mankind, and I will shed my dear heart’s blood for it. Rest assured, I love the Fatherland just as much as you do."

Also he wrote 1834 these prophetic words - they give me a shiver everytime i read them.
Imagine: 99 years before Hitler:

"Christianity - and that is its greatest merit - has somewhat mitigated that brutal germanic love of war, but it could not destroy it. Should that subduing talisman, the cross, be shattered, the frenzied madness of the ancient warriors, that insane Berserk rage of which Nordic bards have spoken and sung so often, will once more burst into flame. This talisman is fragile, and the day will come when it will collapse miserably. Then the ancient stony gods will rise from the forgotten debris and rub the dust of a thousand years from their eyes, and finally Thor with his giant hammer will jump up and smash the Gothic cathedrals. (...)
Do not smile at my advice -- the advice of a dreamer who warns you against Kantians, Fichteans, and philosophers of nature. Do not smile at the visionary who anticipates the same revolution in the realm of the visible as has taken place in the spiritual. Thought precedes action as lightning precedes thunder. German thunder is of true Germanic character; it is not very nimble, but rumbles along ponderously. Yet, it will come and when you hear a crashing such as never before has been heard in the world's history, then you know that the German thunderbolt has fallen at last. At that uproar the eagles of the air will drop dead, and lions in the remotest deserts of Africa will hide in their royal dens. A play will be performed in Germany which will make the French Revolution look like an innocent idyll."


Also he had a sharp wit - which did not make him popular with everybody:
"I do not know if she was virtuous, but she was ugly, and with a woman that is half the battle."

Are you familiar with wagner, I have only heard of him briefly in a book or two about hitler

 

[Sunni Man]

I would like to see all forms of anti-semitism stamped out.

But untill the jews figure out what they are doing to cause it.

I am afraid it will continue to keep comming back and victimizing both jews and non jews alike.

Than once we get rid of the Jews, who is next.

As for me, I never said anything about getting rid of the jews.

I was just asking a question: "Do the jews cause anti-semitism by their behavior?

 

[germanguy]

You have hit on a number of very interesting points. I think you are absolutely correct that there was no proper distinction between Jewish and non-Jewish Germans pre-WWII (unlike in the Soviet Union where there were separate passports for Soviets and Jews). That Jews were an integral part of German society and made huge contributions to, and derived great benefit from, German society is incontrovertible. I think that is part of the horror of what later happened post WWI ... at least from a Jewish perspective. It served as a reminder that if things go bad economically or a scapegoat is needed, Jews are not safe. It is one of the reasons that when certain people say they don't understand the need for a Jewish state or think Jews would ever be safe living in a muslim dominated society (e.g, after natural birth rate differences would leave an arab israel if there were ever a "right of return" or a single state solution in the mid east) that it is perceived as anti-semitism.

I have enjoyed watching your conversation on this topic.

Now we come to a very important point:

The Holocaust and Israel.
Before 1933 nearly every german jew has seen himself undoubtly first and foremost as a german. Most of them were very patriotic and proud of being part of a cultured and respected society. This was not necessarily seen likewise by some germans, so partly this love still was one-sided.
One century before, the great german poet Heinrich Heine (learn german and read his poems. nuff said) was a good example of this mixed status. (*)
Then the Nazis told everybody that jews were no germans and this quite finally ended this lovestory.
After the holocaust, Zionism and the very existence of Israel seemed suddenly a very good idea. In 1929 you needed to be very enthusiastic to settle in Palestine, after 1945 it was rather a matter of life or death.
Therefore - I do believe - what Israel is today it mostly is because of the Holocaust.
Before 1933 the german jews considered themselves to be safe and well within germany.
After 1945 this ended.

Today I know, that a lot Israelis still have a german passport and see this as a safeguard in case of a new war in the Middle East.
(Germany took away the status as german citizen in 1936 and after 1949 the Fed. Republic cancelled this law. Whoever has german ancestors can easily apply for german citizenship)

Regards
ze germanguy


__________________________________
(*)
I can not help but express my total love and devotion to this poet.
Not only are his poems by far the most beautiful I know, but he also represented everything what is good in germany. Spirit, wit, deep thinking and beautiful romantic poetry.

Read him, read about him - it will enrich your life. Or leave it. He can stand it.

Just to give you an idea, three citations:

Heine exiled to France and was critized, because his republican views were opposed by some germans as unpatriotic and anti-german.

His answer:

"Plant the black, red, gold banner at the summit of the German idea, make it the standard of free mankind, and I will shed my dear heart’s blood for it. Rest assured, I love the Fatherland just as much as you do."

Also he wrote 1834 these prophetic words - they give me a shiver everytime i read them.
Imagine: 99 years before Hitler:

"Christianity - and that is its greatest merit - has somewhat mitigated that brutal germanic love of war, but it could not destroy it. Should that subduing talisman, the cross, be shattered, the frenzied madness of the ancient warriors, that insane Berserk rage of which Nordic bards have spoken and sung so often, will once more burst into flame. This talisman is fragile, and the day will come when it will collapse miserably. Then the ancient stony gods will rise from the forgotten debris and rub the dust of a thousand years from their eyes, and finally Thor with his giant hammer will jump up and smash the Gothic cathedrals. (...)
Do not smile at my advice -- the advice of a dreamer who warns you against Kantians, Fichteans, and philosophers of nature. Do not smile at the visionary who anticipates the same revolution in the realm of the visible as has taken place in the spiritual. Thought precedes action as lightning precedes thunder. German thunder is of true Germanic character; it is not very nimble, but rumbles along ponderously. Yet, it will come and when you hear a crashing such as never before has been heard in the world's history, then you know that the German thunderbolt has fallen at last. At that uproar the eagles of the air will drop dead, and lions in the remotest deserts of Africa will hide in their royal dens. A play will be performed in Germany which will make the French Revolution look like an innocent idyll."


Also he had a sharp wit - which did not make him popular with everybody:
"I do not know if she was virtuous, but she was ugly, and with a woman that is half the battle."

Are you familiar with wagner, I have only heard of him briefly in a book or two about hitler

Well I have attended some of his operas, mostly from the cycle The Ring.
I rather prefer Beethoven, Rachmaninoff and Schumann in the classical field. Operas are a bit too long for my taste.
But Wagner´s operas are still great stuff
Hitler loved his music and took his music as kind of a personal religion. So therefore Wagner is now kind of suspicious to some.
Wagner´s operas are very "germanic", as he uses the old myths and nordic sagas, but still he was long dead, when Hitler started to love his music. So you might find in it what you want.
Also Wagner himself was a not a nice men (so to say a proof, that a genius artist in general must not always be a nice person).

King Ludwig II of Bavaria loved Wagner as well and adored his music. Ever visited his castle Neuschwanstein in Bavaria ? This castle was King Ludwigs hideout, inspired by Wagners music. He lived there in a wagnerian dream world of caves with gold, knights and stuff like that.
And Disney copied it ....

So Wagner was a different thing to different people, but to Hitler he was godlike.
Also, Wagner was an antisemite as well, so again we are in the field where we are looking for proofs of later deeds.

regards
ze germanguy

 

[germanguy]

I would like to see all forms of anti-semitism stamped out.

But untill the jews figure out what they are doing to cause it.

I am afraid it will continue to keep comming back and victimizing both jews and non jews alike.

Than once we get rid of the Jews, who is next.

As for me, I never said anything about getting rid of the jews.

I was just asking a question: "Do the jews cause anti-semitism by their behavior?

Do blondes with huge racks cause rape ? Man - this is stupid.


ze germanguy

 

[Sunni Man]

The Jews have been driven out or expelled from 109 countries since 300 A.D.

Clearly they are doing something to cause this behavior in other people.

As they are the only commom denominater in all cases of anti-semitism.

Per your example of the blond being raped.

If she had been the victim of rape 109 times.

Then clearly she is doing something wrong and her behavior would need to be scrutinized to try and figure out how to stop this from happening.

Same with the Jews.

Their behavior needs to be studied and analyized in order to find out why they cause anti-semitism in so many people.

 

[jillian]

Now we come to a very important point:

The Holocaust and Israel.
Before 1933 nearly every german jew has seen himself undoubtly first and foremost as a german. Most of them were very patriotic and proud of being part of a cultured and respected society. This was not necessarily seen likewise by some germans, so partly this love still was one-sided.
One century before, the great german poet Heinrich Heine (learn german and read his poems. nuff said) was a good example of this mixed status. (*)
Then the Nazis told everybody that jews were no germans and this quite finally ended this lovestory.
After the holocaust, Zionism and the very existence of Israel seemed suddenly a very good idea. In 1929 you needed to be very enthusiastic to settle in Palestine, after 1945 it was rather a matter of life or death.
Therefore - I do believe - what Israel is today it mostly is because of the Holocaust.
Before 1933 the german jews considered themselves to be safe and well within germany.
After 1945 this ended.

Today I know, that a lot Israelis still have a german passport and see this as a safeguard in case of a new war in the Middle East.
(Germany took away the status as german citizen in 1936 and after 1949 the Fed. Republic cancelled this law. Whoever has german ancestors can easily apply for german citizenship)

Regards
ze germanguy

I would respond, but I can't improve on something so well stated. I agree with everything you say there.

You also may be the first person I've ever seen use a footnote in a post.

Do you think you could teach English to some of the American posters?

 

[The Rabbi]

Now we come to a very important point:

The Holocaust and Israel.
Before 1933 nearly every german jew has seen himself undoubtly first and foremost as a german. Most of them were very patriotic and proud of being part of a cultured and respected society. This was not necessarily seen likewise by some germans, so partly this love still was one-sided.
One century before, the great german poet Heinrich Heine (learn german and read his poems. nuff said) was a good example of this mixed status. (*)
Then the Nazis told everybody that jews were no germans and this quite finally ended this lovestory.
After the holocaust, Zionism and the very existence of Israel seemed suddenly a very good idea. In 1929 you needed to be very enthusiastic to settle in Palestine, after 1945 it was rather a matter of life or death.
Therefore - I do believe - what Israel is today it mostly is because of the Holocaust.
Before 1933 the german jews considered themselves to be safe and well within germany.
After 1945 this ended.

Today I know, that a lot Israelis still have a german passport and see this as a safeguard in case of a new war in the Middle East.
(Germany took away the status as german citizen in 1936 and after 1949 the Fed. Republic cancelled this law. Whoever has german ancestors can easily apply for german citizenship)

Regards
ze germanguy


]

If Israel were settled by German Jews you might have a point.
You are right that Jewish Germans saw themselves as Germans, and there was a lot of hostility to Zionism, both within Reform and Orthodox camps.
But there were a lot of Russian and Polish Jews who found religion in Zionism and there was a big exodus prior to WW2.
It is a commonplace that Israel grew out of the Holocaust. But it is not so. The state was prefigured by the Balfour Declaration in, what?, 1914? There was a modern settlement there as far back as the 19th century, with settlements going back throughout history.

 

[jillian]

Now we come to a very important point:

The Holocaust and Israel.
Before 1933 nearly every german jew has seen himself undoubtly first and foremost as a german. Most of them were very patriotic and proud of being part of a cultured and respected society. This was not necessarily seen likewise by some germans, so partly this love still was one-sided.
One century before, the great german poet Heinrich Heine (learn german and read his poems. nuff said) was a good example of this mixed status. (*)
Then the Nazis told everybody that jews were no germans and this quite finally ended this lovestory.
After the holocaust, Zionism and the very existence of Israel seemed suddenly a very good idea. In 1929 you needed to be very enthusiastic to settle in Palestine, after 1945 it was rather a matter of life or death.
Therefore - I do believe - what Israel is today it mostly is because of the Holocaust.
Before 1933 the german jews considered themselves to be safe and well within germany.
After 1945 this ended.

Today I know, that a lot Israelis still have a german passport and see this as a safeguard in case of a new war in the Middle East.
(Germany took away the status as german citizen in 1936 and after 1949 the Fed. Republic cancelled this law. Whoever has german ancestors can easily apply for german citizenship)

Regards
ze germanguy


]

If Israel were settled by German Jews you might have a point.
You are right that Jewish Germans saw themselves as Germans, and there was a lot of hostility to Zionism, both within Reform and Orthodox camps.
But there were a lot of Russian and Polish Jews who found religion in Zionism and there was a big exodus prior to WW2.
It is a commonplace that Israel grew out of the Holocaust. But it is not so. The state was prefigured by the Balfour Declaration in, what?, 1914? There was a modern settlement there as far back as the 19th century, with settlements going back throughout history.

Also very good points. But I think in terms of the safety level in being Jewish, Germany proved that there really wasn't any security blanket in having rights of citizenship. German Jews were more certain of their status than any other population of Jews that I know of, except for those in the U.S... .and maybe moreso.

Russian Jews always knew they needed to reestablish their homeland. Pogroms told them that all the time...back to when my grandmother left in 1912 and before. And I don't think it can really be argued, though, that the holocaust necessarily accelerated the timeline and made the cause more imperative.

 

[Charles Stucker]

The Jews have been driven out or expelled from 109 countries since 300 A.D.

Clearly they are doing something to cause this behavior in other people.

If she had been the victim of rape 109 times.

If it was over the course of 1700 years then that would be once every 16 years or so. Meaning that the Jews get raped about the time they turn into inviting targets.
Funny thing about that - all the antisemites have dozens of reasons why the Jews are somehow to blame, and all the reasons boil down to the same thing- the antisemite is a bigot.

 

[Anguille]

Maybe we should all go back to Africa.

 

[Sunni Man]

The Jews have been driven out or expelled from 109 countries since 300 A.D.

Clearly they are doing something to cause this behavior in other people.

If she had been the victim of rape 109 times.

If it was over the course of 1700 years then that would be once every 16 years or so. Meaning that the Jews get raped about the time they turn into inviting targets.
Funny thing about that - all the antisemites have dozens of reasons why the Jews are somehow to blame, and all the reasons boil down to the same thing- the antisemite is a bigot.

I agree, anti-semitism is like a contagious disease.

It needs to be isolated, and then eradicated.

As a friend of the jews. I would like to do my part to stop anti-semitism.

By asking the jews to modify any behavior that causes anti-semitism

 

[germanguy]

The Jews have been driven out or expelled from 109 countries since 300 A.D.

Clearly they are doing something to cause this behavior in other people.

As they are the only commom denominater in all cases of anti-semitism.

Per your example of the blond being raped.

If she had been the victim of rape 109 times.

Then clearly she is doing something wrong and her behavior would need to be scrutinized to try and figure out how to stop this from happening.

Same with the Jews.

Their behavior needs to be studied and analyized in order to find out why they cause anti-semitism in so many people.

A blond raped 109 times I would rather call a victim of 109 men.
But yes, she 109 times asked for it.
Or do you think, that the 109 rapists are a rather sick bunch.

Let´s ban huge racks !

ze germanguy

 

[Sunni Man]

I am in NO way defending rapists.

But obviously, she MUST be doing something wrong to attract men who would engage in this criminal behavior.

Same with the Jews.

Their being driven out of country afer country. Can only lead to one conclusion.

They are doing something to bring anti-semitism out of people who initially didn't exibit this trait.

 

[germanguy]

Now we come to a very important point:

The Holocaust and Israel.
Before 1933 nearly every german jew has seen himself undoubtly first and foremost as a german. Most of them were very patriotic and proud of being part of a cultured and respected society. This was not necessarily seen likewise by some germans, so partly this love still was one-sided.
One century before, the great german poet Heinrich Heine (learn german and read his poems. nuff said) was a good example of this mixed status. (*)
Then the Nazis told everybody that jews were no germans and this quite finally ended this lovestory.
After the holocaust, Zionism and the very existence of Israel seemed suddenly a very good idea. In 1929 you needed to be very enthusiastic to settle in Palestine, after 1945 it was rather a matter of life or death.
Therefore - I do believe - what Israel is today it mostly is because of the Holocaust.
Before 1933 the german jews considered themselves to be safe and well within germany.
After 1945 this ended.

Today I know, that a lot Israelis still have a german passport and see this as a safeguard in case of a new war in the Middle East.
(Germany took away the status as german citizen in 1936 and after 1949 the Fed. Republic cancelled this law. Whoever has german ancestors can easily apply for german citizenship)

Regards
ze germanguy


]

If Israel were settled by German Jews you might have a point.
You are right that Jewish Germans saw themselves as Germans, and there was a lot of hostility to Zionism, both within Reform and Orthodox camps.
But there were a lot of Russian and Polish Jews who found religion in Zionism and there was a big exodus prior to WW2.
It is a commonplace that Israel grew out of the Holocaust. But it is not so. The state was prefigured by the Balfour Declaration in, what?, 1914? There was a modern settlement there as far back as the 19th century, with settlements going back throughout history.

Israel was definitely not settled by german jews only, but I dare to say that without the Holocaust the urge to establish Israel would have been, well, not the same.
It is one of the founding principles of Israel: We will never be victims again.
Not the only, but one.

In regard of the Balfour Declaration - it was written 2.11.1917 (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8e/Balfour_declaration_unmarked.jpg).

From this point on we might quarrel endlessly, if this already was meant as a way to establish a jewish state.

That german jews were not the most eager zionists, might support my foregoing arguments: Most felt no real need to be a zionist. The outlook to settle in Palestine was not very inviting.
After 1945, when in every german occupied european country (except Denmark !), the jewsih communities were either killed or scattered over the continent. Children without parents, traumatized survivors of KZs etc. For most of them a return to their homeland seemed unthinkable.

It is no wonder that Israel was founded 1948 - it was possible then. Not many states would have denied recognition in the UN. Imagine the same 25 years later or earlier !

Anyhow - it is still one of the tragedies, that we germans have cut off such a rich and enriching part of ourselves as the german jews have been.

regards
ze germanguy

 

[Anguille]

They are doing something to bring anti-semitism out of people who initially didn't exibit this trait.

What came first? The Jew or the anti-semite?

 

[germanguy]

Now we come to a very important point:

The Holocaust and Israel.
Before 1933 nearly every german jew has seen himself undoubtly first and foremost as a german. Most of them were very patriotic and proud of being part of a cultured and respected society. This was not necessarily seen likewise by some germans, so partly this love still was one-sided.
One century before, the great german poet Heinrich Heine (learn german and read his poems. nuff said) was a good example of this mixed status. (*)
Then the Nazis told everybody that jews were no germans and this quite finally ended this lovestory.
After the holocaust, Zionism and the very existence of Israel seemed suddenly a very good idea. In 1929 you needed to be very enthusiastic to settle in Palestine, after 1945 it was rather a matter of life or death.
Therefore - I do believe - what Israel is today it mostly is because of the Holocaust.
Before 1933 the german jews considered themselves to be safe and well within germany.
After 1945 this ended.

Today I know, that a lot Israelis still have a german passport and see this as a safeguard in case of a new war in the Middle East.
(Germany took away the status as german citizen in 1936 and after 1949 the Fed. Republic cancelled this law. Whoever has german ancestors can easily apply for german citizenship)

Regards
ze germanguy

I would respond, but I can't improve on something so well stated. I agree with everything you say there.

You also may be the first person I've ever seen use a footnote in a post.

Do you think you could teach English to some of the American posters?

Hooray -
first one seen in using a footnote.
Must be a german thing, because we love the use of footnotes.
In some germanacademic books you might find nearly a parallel book in itself.
And it looks damn cool.

And no, I will not try to teach anything to anybody. Just stating my opinions and thoughts.
Thanks anyway for suggesting - I will rub this one day on to my english teacher.


regards
ze germanguy

 

[The Rabbi]

Anyhow - it is still one of the tragedies, that we germans have cut off such a rich and enriching part of ourselves as the german jews have been.

regards
ze germanguy

Thank you. This is the message of the Altona Holocaust memorial, that Germany itself was impoverished by its actions.
And it is true: Germany has not produced a mathematician of note since the war. Similarly all their scholarly and scientific people have not been the same caliber as pre-war.