Why did the holocaust occur?

[actsnoblemartin]

thats not true, the holocaust is when 6 million jews were murdered/ almost the entire jewish population of europe/ the world was wiped out

if your referring the to armenian genocide fine, but their is only one holocaust

I don't believe there is any question that is so simple yet that requires such a complex answer.

On another message board more relating to photography, a photographer had unveiled a new, quite excellent body of work that exhibited portraits of holocaust survivors. One critic had this to say about the subject matter:

To be perfectly frank I see no point in adding yet another body of work -even a work as masterful as this clearly is -to the subject of the Holocaust that is devoid of any serious analysis of the question of why. A million volumes have already been written and they all with few exceptions primarily function to shroud the episode in mystery, rendering the subject broadly incomprehensible and in so doing, serving to intellectually disarm any meaningful resistance to its future resuscitation.

The discussion of politics is not allowed on that forum, so I thought I would turn the discussion over to here, where there are quite a few intelligent people on this forum.

So, why do YOU think the holocaust happened? Give whatever realist or phillisophical belief you might have on why it occurred.

Also, I know there are deniers out there who believe the holocaust never happened and we've got your story down - thank you. I also know there are one or two neo-nazis/skinheads/racists on this forum, again thank you, we know you hate Jews. This discussion is not for you and I would thank you if you kept out of it.

Which holocaust? Our history is full of them.

 

[mdn2000]

Hitler's Willing Executioners (1996) is a history book by American writer Daniel Goldhagen

This is a great book as to why the holocaust happened. I know of no better book on the subject. The book discusses the history of Germany way before the holocaust, I am not sure how far back the book goes but it talks of what was happenening in the 1800's, a great book with great insights and facts overlooked all to often in other books.

 

[My Lady Rachel]

I don't believe there is any question that is so simple yet that requires such a complex answer.

On another message board more relating to photography, a photographer had unveiled a new, quite excellent body of work that exhibited portraits of holocaust survivors. One critic had this to say about the subject matter:

To be perfectly frank I see no point in adding yet another body of work -even a work as masterful as this clearly is -to the subject of the Holocaust that is devoid of any serious analysis of the question of why. A million volumes have already been written and they all with few exceptions primarily function to shroud the episode in mystery, rendering the subject broadly incomprehensible and in so doing, serving to intellectually disarm any meaningful resistance to its future resuscitation.

The discussion of politics is not allowed on that forum, so I thought I would turn the discussion over to here, where there are quite a few intelligent people on this forum.

So, why do YOU think the holocaust happened? Give whatever realist or phillisophical belief you might have on why it occurred.

Also, I know there are deniers out there who believe the holocaust never happened and we've got your story down - thank you. I also know there are one or two neo-nazis/skinheads/racists on this forum, again thank you, we know you hate Jews. This discussion is not for you and I would thank you if you kept out of it.

After WWI, Germany was a mess – at certain points, their money was literally not worth the paper it was printed on. That’s a very scary thing to have happen, because you’re never sure if you’ll get food or clothing or medicine if you get sick. And when things are going that badly and people are scared, they often look for someone to blame or something to do, because then they are less scared. They also look for a leader, because they need someone to protect them.

Hitler was a very charismatic speaker, who filled the role of leader really well. And he picked the Jews as the people to blame, along with Communists, intellectuals, homosexuals, etc. He also gave the German people a vision of themselves as perfect and ideal, with a higher calling that could only be fulfilled if they got rid of undesireables. All those things are very, very inviting ideas if you are starving and frightened and it worked.

It’s also true that orthodox Jewish religious doctrine encourages Jews to think of themselves as “God’s Chosen People” and a cut above the rest of us. Put that together with certain behaviors that set them apart (distinctive clothing and hair styles among the Chasidim, for example) and it’s not hard for unscrupulous people in power to take the heat off themselves by pointing at the “foreigners”, the ones who aren’t “real” Germans, whatever. The same scapegoating is currently underway in the US, with Muslim Americans and Arab-Americans as the victims. During WWII it was Japanese-Americans and in WWI the German-Americans. We’re not currently rounding up the Muslims or Arabs and putting them in concentration camps, the way we did the Japanese-Americans in WWII, but who knows what will happen next year?

 

[dilloduck]

I don't believe there is any question that is so simple yet that requires such a complex answer.

On another message board more relating to photography, a photographer had unveiled a new, quite excellent body of work that exhibited portraits of holocaust survivors. One critic had this to say about the subject matter:

To be perfectly frank I see no point in adding yet another body of work -even a work as masterful as this clearly is -to the subject of the Holocaust that is devoid of any serious analysis of the question of why. A million volumes have already been written and they all with few exceptions primarily function to shroud the episode in mystery, rendering the subject broadly incomprehensible and in so doing, serving to intellectually disarm any meaningful resistance to its future resuscitation.

The discussion of politics is not allowed on that forum, so I thought I would turn the discussion over to here, where there are quite a few intelligent people on this forum.

So, why do YOU think the holocaust happened? Give whatever realist or phillisophical belief you might have on why it occurred.

Also, I know there are deniers out there who believe the holocaust never happened and we've got your story down - thank you. I also know there are one or two neo-nazis/skinheads/racists on this forum, again thank you, we know you hate Jews. This discussion is not for you and I would thank you if you kept out of it.

After WWI, Germany was a mess – at certain points, their money was literally not worth the paper it was printed on. That’s a very scary thing to have happen, because you’re never sure if you’ll get food or clothing or medicine if you get sick. And when things are going that badly and people are scared, they often look for someone to blame or something to do, because then they are less scared. They also look for a leader, because they need someone to protect them.

Hitler was a very charismatic speaker, who filled the role of leader really well. And he picked the Jews as the people to blame, along with Communists, intellectuals, homosexuals, etc. He also gave the German people a vision of themselves as perfect and ideal, with a higher calling that could only be fulfilled if they got rid of undesireables. All those things are very, very inviting ideas if you are starving and frightened and it worked.

It’s also true that orthodox Jewish religious doctrine encourages Jews to think of themselves as “God’s Chosen People” and a cut above the rest of us. Put that together with certain behaviors that set them apart (distinctive clothing and hair styles among the Chasidim, for example) and it’s not hard for unscrupulous people in power to take the heat off themselves by pointing at the “foreigners”, the ones who aren’t “real” Germans, whatever. The same scapegoating is currently underway in the US, with Muslim Americans and Arab-Americans as the victims. During WWII it was Japanese-Americans and in WWI the German-Americans. We’re not currently rounding up the Muslims or Arabs and putting them in concentration camps, the way we did the Japanese-Americans in WWII, but who knows what will happen next year?

Are you kidding? America is going to commit PC suicide.

 

[My Lady Rachel]

i have another question.....if this never happened why did the nazis create records that show that it did.....

Yes, all those germans were lying, their records are fabricated, soldiers who liberated the camps were lying and all the peole liberated from those camps are also lying.

Only the retards, dimbulbs and uneducated slobs of the world are able to figure it out.

 

[My Lady Rachel]

I don't believe there is any question that is so simple yet that requires such a complex answer.

On another message board more relating to photography, a photographer had unveiled a new, quite excellent body of work that exhibited portraits of holocaust survivors. One critic had this to say about the subject matter:



The discussion of politics is not allowed on that forum, so I thought I would turn the discussion over to here, where there are quite a few intelligent people on this forum.

So, why do YOU think the holocaust happened? Give whatever realist or phillisophical belief you might have on why it occurred.

Also, I know there are deniers out there who believe the holocaust never happened and we've got your story down - thank you. I also know there are one or two neo-nazis/skinheads/racists on this forum, again thank you, we know you hate Jews. This discussion is not for you and I would thank you if you kept out of it.

After WWI, Germany was a mess – at certain points, their money was literally not worth the paper it was printed on. That’s a very scary thing to have happen, because you’re never sure if you’ll get food or clothing or medicine if you get sick. And when things are going that badly and people are scared, they often look for someone to blame or something to do, because then they are less scared. They also look for a leader, because they need someone to protect them.

Hitler was a very charismatic speaker, who filled the role of leader really well. And he picked the Jews as the people to blame, along with Communists, intellectuals, homosexuals, etc. He also gave the German people a vision of themselves as perfect and ideal, with a higher calling that could only be fulfilled if they got rid of undesireables. All those things are very, very inviting ideas if you are starving and frightened and it worked.

It’s also true that orthodox Jewish religious doctrine encourages Jews to think of themselves as “God’s Chosen People” and a cut above the rest of us. Put that together with certain behaviors that set them apart (distinctive clothing and hair styles among the Chasidim, for example) and it’s not hard for unscrupulous people in power to take the heat off themselves by pointing at the “foreigners”, the ones who aren’t “real” Germans, whatever. The same scapegoating is currently underway in the US, with Muslim Americans and Arab-Americans as the victims. During WWII it was Japanese-Americans and in WWI the German-Americans. We’re not currently rounding up the Muslims or Arabs and putting them in concentration camps, the way we did the Japanese-Americans in WWII, but who knows what will happen next year?

Are you kidding? America is going to commit PC suicide.

But if you commit suicide you're a friggin pussy that will never get laid.

 

[dilloduck]

After WWI, Germany was a mess – at certain points, their money was literally not worth the paper it was printed on. That’s a very scary thing to have happen, because you’re never sure if you’ll get food or clothing or medicine if you get sick. And when things are going that badly and people are scared, they often look for someone to blame or something to do, because then they are less scared. They also look for a leader, because they need someone to protect them.

Hitler was a very charismatic speaker, who filled the role of leader really well. And he picked the Jews as the people to blame, along with Communists, intellectuals, homosexuals, etc. He also gave the German people a vision of themselves as perfect and ideal, with a higher calling that could only be fulfilled if they got rid of undesireables. All those things are very, very inviting ideas if you are starving and frightened and it worked.

It’s also true that orthodox Jewish religious doctrine encourages Jews to think of themselves as “God’s Chosen People” and a cut above the rest of us. Put that together with certain behaviors that set them apart (distinctive clothing and hair styles among the Chasidim, for example) and it’s not hard for unscrupulous people in power to take the heat off themselves by pointing at the “foreigners”, the ones who aren’t “real” Germans, whatever. The same scapegoating is currently underway in the US, with Muslim Americans and Arab-Americans as the victims. During WWII it was Japanese-Americans and in WWI the German-Americans. We’re not currently rounding up the Muslims or Arabs and putting them in concentration camps, the way we did the Japanese-Americans in WWII, but who knows what will happen next year?

Are you kidding? America is going to commit PC suicide.

But if you commit suicide you're a friggin pussy that will never get laid.

please convince the PC crowd of that--thanks in advance

 

[My Lady Rachel]

Hitler and his henchmen found themselves in a position of Godlike power, Germany was in crisis and the Jews were an easy blame for all the woes of the German people.As horrible as it is, this hatred of the Jewry united the German people to such an effect that his pograms snowballed.

That depends on when you mean, while he was consolidating his power or after...

Don't forget Hitler was in power for years before the war actually began. Hitler did many things for Germany in the beginning. He brought the people pride, which they had lost after the humimilating aftermath of WW1. He brought jobs, a better economy, organization, infrastructure, industry.

He organized the youth into the Hitler Youth programs, for both boys and girls. He took over the children's minds with indoctrination in these groups, through songs, chants, mottos and rallies. School curriculums were rewritten with the Nazi agenda, anti-Jew, with Germans as the master race. A generation of youth was brought up to believe these things.

After his policies got started, and the real terror began, people were afraid. Children were encouraged to turn in their parents who spoke out against the regime. People who befriended or defended Jews disappeared. It was better to be quiet than resist.

Of course many people followed him because they agreed with his policies. Or because they wanted to be seen as loyal to the regime, and gain promotions, the usual reasons of greed and ambition.

I'm sure the people who helped his evilness spread were not cruel people, really. I think maybe the fear for your family, your life, takes over. And you just grow accustomed, learn to bury your head and not ask too many questions.

 

[My Lady Rachel]

Sorry to hear about your family members KK
.
I am in No way trying to slander them or any other person who lost their lives during the Third Reich.

My interest in the so called holocaust has to deal with some of the details of the alledged event.

Yes, the Nazis killed hundereds of thousands of innocent people during this terrible time. This was wrong and can't be condoned by any sane person.

Then why are you denying it? Why do you really give a fuck who was really harmed anyway? It was horrible, Adolf was a monster and the Nazis were his minions. He turned on his own in the worst possible way. Are you angry because us Jews are the only ones willing to keep reminding people of what monstrosities humans are capable of if they blindly follow one belief, one leader, and one ideal without regard to others? Are you pissed because a real event gets more attention than some religious myth in some over-translated book? Really, what do you have against the Jews telling our stories? Anytime you deny it you are slandering them, you are calling all of them liars, even if your numbers were accurate (in reality they aren't since they still haven't finished digging up all the mass graves and many are now buried under buildings even) why would it be any less atrocious? Either you are jealous, a troll, or trying to justify repeating the event.

I am Not angry about anything concerning the alleged holocaust KK

I love to read and study anything about history. Especially WWII because my Father was a soldier there in Europe fighting the Nazis.

But when countries make laws saying that this subject can only be looked at ONE way and everyone must parrot the official story or go to jail. That tells me something is wrong. Very wrong.

What is being hidden from the public?

In America, political speech has always been among the most protected forms, but even in politics, you aren't allowed to lie about your opponent. Why should you be allowed to lie about the Holocaust? Perhaps it's only because the people you might lie about are already dead.

Hate speech is not Freedom of Speech!

Perhaps the quick and easy solution is for you is to accept that we in the west have freedom of speech?

Freedom of speech? How do they figure? The westerner does not have freedom of speech. He is led to believe he does but, try standng on a street corner in San Francisco and shouting "Queers suck!" (yeah...funny huh?) or try standing on a corner in downtown Detroit and shout something about Ni@@ers. You will be hauled off to the town square and whipped if you survive that long. See that's now called "Hate Speech". Now stand on a corner in those cities and talk bad about Jews or Christians. Folks will stop, listen, some will cheer and the cops will walk on by chewing their donuts. That's not "Hate Speech". So, we know we do not have free speech at all.

You can say what you want where you want, but you also have to deal with the repercussions that come from what you said. Well until the cops come and pull your limp body out of the pile and rush you to the hospital.

 

[My Lady Rachel]

I always find it sad when people call others not human just because of disagreements over politics or ideology.

We shouldn't degrade others over issues and events that are debateable.

Heck, I will even admitt that homosexuals are humans, even though they engage in animalistic and sub human behavior.

I try to judge people by the content of their character not by what they do in bed.

The fact is that adult male homosexuality has been there from the start (whenever that was.) I believe it started back in the era with the Roman soldiers. Roman men and women liked big masculine men for sex. There is a myth that Romans looked down on a man for such behavior, but this was just an attitude, not a reality. Roman men would try anything in bed. Even the Emperor, would go into the barracks, where soldiers lived naked, and partake of the hairy muscularity as he saw fit. Military officers using their men for sex was common also in Arabia, if you read the true Lawrence of Arabia story and not the movie version.


Long before the Romans, homosexuality existed in ancient Persia... King Darius had a loveboy, who became Alexander the Great's lover when he defeated the Persian army.


Among many Middle Eastern Muslim cultures, homosexual practices were widespread and public. Persian poets, such as Sa’di (d. 1291), Hafez (d. 1389), and Jami (d. 1492), wrote poems replete with homoerotic allusions. The two most commonly documented forms were commercial sex with transgender males or males enacting transgender roles exemplified by the köçeks and the bacchás, and Sufi spiritual practices in which the practitioner crossed over from the idealized chaste form of the practice to one in which the desire is consummated.

In Persia homosexuality and homoerotic expressions were tolerated in numerous public places, from monasteries and seminaries to taverns, military camps, bathhouses, and coffee houses. In the early Safavid era (1501–1723), male houses of prostitution (amrad khane) were legally recognized and paid taxes.

 

[mdn2000]

My Lady Rachel, you posts seem good, I dont have time to respond in detail nor do I feel a need to. However a fact of history right to the end is ordinary germans willingly participated in the holocaust. Sure some through fear, but the majority that participated did so because they wanted to. Not because they were tricked by Nazi propaganda but simply because this is what the german people beleived. This is documented. The hatred did not come from Hitler, it came from German culture, a culture that developed well before the 1900's.

Hitler's Willing Executioners (1996) is a history book by American writer Daniel Goldhagen

Read this book, its the most important book on the subject, well maybe the second most important next to the "The Black Book".

 

[Yukon]

We will be victorious we will recalim our land from the Jew. Long live the memory of Arafat!

 

[Ringel05]

My new theory is that Yukon sent a letter to Hitler in 1932 discussing the Holy Cross and a personal recipe for a Wine Dilution. Since he cant spell worth a shit the Nazis thought he meant Holocaust and Final Solution.

 

[germanguy]

My Lady Rachel, you posts seem good, I dont have time to respond in detail nor do I feel a need to. However a fact of history right to the end is ordinary germans willingly participated in the holocaust. Sure some through fear, but the majority that participated did so because they wanted to. Not because they were tricked by Nazi propaganda but simply because this is what the german people beleived. This is documented. The hatred did not come from Hitler, it came from German culture, a culture that developed well before the 1900's.

Hitler's Willing Executioners (1996) is a history book by American writer Daniel Goldhagen

Read this book, its the most important book on the subject, well maybe the second most important next to the "The Black Book".

Well , as a german I am somewhat biased in this question, but nonetheless an answer must be given to this.

First of all, I totally disagree with Goldhagen. I have read the book, but I do not follow it´s conclusions.
The theory, that the Germans had a culture with an antisemitism incorporated, that was directed to exterminate, is at least doubtful.
Also, the explanation why antisemitism was not virulent after 1945 is also plain stupid.
It is because we were culturally educated by the US and the British to not continue this.
I do not buy this.
Then any danger would end with the germans.

In 1900, if you would have asked any european, who might try to kill every Jew in Europe, most people would have guessed Russia or France. Germany would have been perhaps on a fourth or fifth place.

On the contrary, the jewish community in Germany was very upper-middle-class and therefore well connected with the elite.
In then Germany the jewish population was nearly totally assimilated within the rest of the society. Perhaps a jewish member of the high nobility was still seen as very far away and a jewish Field Marshal would have been still unthinklable. Nonetheless, before WWI, nobody would have thought about killing every german jew.

That 30 years later it would have been thinkable to get rid of the german jews, was very far off the public mind.

The Holocaust simply did not happen because every German decided to kill the jewish neighbours. Or already wanted to.
It sunk gradually in the peoples mind and in wartime most germans hid behind their own problems.

The separation of the Jews started early after 1933 and became very gradually worse.
It was difficult to judge, where all the new laws were directed.
I.e.: After 1933 german jewish pupils were excluded from certain sport festivities in school.
This might have caused some irritation, but is at least not so bad. Then it was forbidden for german jews as doctors to pratice on the so-called "Aryan Germans". Might irritate, but also at least not so dangerous. So gradually the jewish part of the germans was step by step separated from the rest and the people got used to the idea that these jews were distinctively different. And they were not so visible anymore.
There has been some form of protest, but this was easily quelled. Any form of discontent might have been reported to the almighty Gestapo and therefore people kept their mouth shut.
Also, a certain antisemitism was there as well. A lot of large businesses were owned by jews, so some agreed, that they had too much influence and so on. Also, as most jews were rather middle-class, a certain grudge against the alledgedly richer and cleverer jews was there as well. (Dr. Goldstein is rich, my savings are gone due to inflaltion - it has to do with him beeing Jew).

And everything of these things was done by proper bureaucratic procedure.
Behind this a lot of people have easily hidden (An order is an order !).

The real bloody work was done by a rather small minority of either very brutal or very cool and coldhearted killers apart from Germany. It is no surprise, that all extermination camps were in Poland. What was in Germany was still gruesome enough, but these were also apart from the cities.

And we should never forget, that although Germany had the biggest and decisive part in this, a lot of people from other nationalities wholeheartly helped with the killing. Some had no other choice (beeing occupied) some plainly refused (Denmark) some were ideologically on the same level (Croatia back then).

Therefore, my answer would be:

A certain number of factors were already there, a lot of factors were personalized in Hitler himself and a lot of things were coincidence.

I would bet, that nearly every society can single out a certain group (Peasants, Intellectuals, Muslims, Jews - whatever) and slowly degrade them.
From there to the will of total extinction it is only a small step.

There is only one small and nearly invisible line after which barbarism begins.
Therefore I always feel uneasy, when a certain group is singled out as scapegoat for whatever. I think it already starts at this point.

What now exactly lied behind the antisemistism of Hitler I still can not grasp. If you read his works it all runs down "It were the Jews". If you then firmly believe this, the next logical step is to get rid of them.
By the Way, Hitler was also not very fond of Christianity (made the germans too soft), Liberals, Conservatives, the Disabled, the Blacks, Homosexuals, Sinti and Roma - they also died in the camps, but formed a too small number individually to be remembered. It were not only six million jews, but also nearly 3,4 million soviet soldiers and the above groups which were considered as unworthy to live. The number of people killed in concentration camps are about 11 million.
And for these, there was no preexisting hatred or cultural anti-whatever within the german culture.

Never forget: The first who died in German Concetration Camps were .... Germans.

Regards

the germanguy

 

[The Rabbi]

On the contrary I found Goldhagen's book very persuasive. He makes the case that non-Jewish Germans regarded Jews as alien, that their existence in Germany constituted a problem that needed a solution. Their extermination was simply an extreme conclusion carried out by a small number but acquiesced to by virtually everyone.
But just as WWI and its trauma paved teh way for Hitler, so too WW2 paved the way for a serious re-examination of German attitudes towards almost everything.
The good consequence is that Germans are probably teh least anti semitic in Europe. The bad consequence is that legitimate issues cannot be discussed without referring to Nazi policy.

 

[germanguy]

I always find it sad when people call others not human just because of disagreements over politics or ideology.

We shouldn't degrade others over issues and events that are debateable.

Heck, I will even admitt that homosexuals are humans, even though they engage in animalistic and sub human behavior.

Just as a footnote:
What is homosexual and therefore - according i.e. to the followers of Mohammed or Christ - sinful, depends upon your cultural point of view.

A Spartan warrior might have looked very puzzled, when you tried to insult him as homosexual. It was not only perfectly accepted in Sparta, it was part of the education of younger men.
Older men educated younger men (which included the sexuality) and their position within the rigid society back then was also determined by the abilities and the status of the young men, they were together with. If then the young men proved himself not only a brave warrior it raised the status of the elder man. That this included sex was not to mention.
It was normal.

So, perhaps in 1500 years mine and your heterosexuality will be seen as something very dirty and filthy.

regards
the germanguy

 

[germanguy]

On the contrary I found Goldhagen's book very persuasive. He makes the case that non-Jewish Germans regarded Jews as alien, that their existence in Germany constituted a problem that needed a solution. Their extermination was simply an extreme conclusion carried out by a small number but acquiesced to by virtually everyone.
But just as WWI and its trauma paved teh way for Hitler, so too WW2 paved the way for a serious re-examination of German attitudes towards almost everything.
The good consequence is that Germans are probably teh least anti semitic in Europe. The bad consequence is that legitimate issues cannot be discussed without referring to Nazi policy.

Dear Rabbi,

persuasive yes, but he is rather very selective with his sources.

So it was common in nearly every european state in the 17th, 18th or 19th century, that jews formed a distinct and somewhat "alien" group. In France they became citizens after the revolution.
In most german states this may differ, but in general between 1815 and 1840 in most german states Jews either had de facto the same rights as other subjects of the respective prince or had them by edict.
When Germany was unified in 1871 all german Jews got the same rights as every other german citizen.
As said, within the army (and in the juridical system) jews were still either not allowed or not accepted. But in every other field they assimilated very well.

But you must see regional differences. There were still rural parts, were jews still kept for their own and did not assimilate. If you had asked what people thought in these parts, you will find antisemitism.
Also, there always was antisemitism on the rise during times of economic crisis. But as France had proven with it´s Deyfuss Affaire, antisemitism was not limited to Germany.
I would sum up these under "christian prejudice". So were there constant fears of small businessmen of the bigger jewish warehouses etc.
But nothing of these was found only and exclusively in Germany, so I do not follow Goldhagen in this.

Regards
the germanguy

 

[The Rabbi]

That isn't a fair comparison.
In Dover's book on Greek Homosexuality he points out that our idea of the homosexual was very odd to the Greeks. And they often made fun of it.
Greek homosexuality was more of a stage of life. There were few people exclusively either homosexual or heterosexual.

But the Greeks also didnt have a problem with exposing infants on a hillside, something the monotheistic traditions have definitely termed sinful.

 

[germanguy]

That isn't a fair comparison.
In Dover's book on Greek Homosexuality he points out that our idea of the homosexual was very odd to the Greeks. And they often made fun of it.
Greek homosexuality was more of a stage of life. There were few people exclusively either homosexual or heterosexual.

But the Greeks also didnt have a problem with exposing infants on a hillside, something the monotheistic traditions have definitely termed sinful.

This is exactly what I meant.
A Greek might even have been totally puzzled by our concept of Homosexuality.
To sleep for years with a young man and then marry and have children was normal and nobody has seen this as unnormal or unhealthy or immoral.
What is sinful is a rather monotheistic concept, at least it seems so to me.
Especially in regard of sexuality the Greeks had a totally different angle of view to this.

Where especially the Roman Catholics have - err - a problem with sex and who is allowed to do what, this was a problem the Greeks simply did not understood.
Heck, there were rites of worship, which included sexual intercourse in certain positions considered holy. This perhaps the early christians found revolting and the Greeks simply did not get this.

So, as I said before, it heaviliy depends upon your point of view and the time you live in.

regards
the germanguy

 

[germanguy]

Made my avatar...always wanted to have a flag.

Hee...and please nobody tells the federal president, as the use of this flag is limited by law to services and buildings of the german government.

But now to something completely different: the subject of this thread.

Before I do get applause from the wrong ones:
That I do not agree with Goldhagen does not mean I do support in any way hate speech or the denial of the Holocaust.

I personally believe that Goldhagen´s book had it´s merits:
His central thesis is uncomfortable enough, that the Germans started a vivid debate about it.

This at last is a very good thing, as certain details described by Goldhagen are correct and well written.

But I still do not see, that Germans are the predestined killers of the Jews.

We all have to face the fact, that we evolved monkeys are a cruel and bloodthirsty species. And we all have to fight this demon by using the most important organ we have: our brain.

Regards
the germanguy