Who's Afraid of Socialism?

[georgephillip]

Regardless, does not this comment contradict the previous? You are claiming that Trump is directly responsible for devastating Venezuela.... and yet Putin wants us to support Venezuela. Does this not mean Trump is not a puppet of Putin?

Putin wants the US to stop meddling in the internal politics of Venezuela.

Russia's Next Bomber Base: Venezuela?
Is Trump Putin's bitch?
Maybe the answer's in Venezuela?

 

[georgephillip]

Nope. That's a fantasy.

Actually, that's the history of Indonesian capitalism:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/1462394042000326879?src=recsys&journalCode=riac20&

"Following an aborted coup attempt in October 1965, the Indonesian military organized what turned out to be one of the most horrifying massacres of the twentieth century.

"More than half a million people were killed while hundreds of thousands of others were detained for years in prison camps throughout the country.

"There are two major points that this paper attempts to make.

"First, that the killings are in fact a case of state violence despite of the efforts to make it look like spontaneous violence.

"Second, that the killings are crucial to the expansion of capitalism in Indonesia.

"Using Marx’s concept of ‘primitive accumulation’, it attempts to show that the mass killings and arrests, the expropriation of people from their houses and lands, and the elimination of working‐class political formations, are integral parts of an economic strategy of the New Order."

 

[dblack]

Capitalism = Large variety of Corporations & smaller merchants control markets. MUCH LESS chance for corruption affecting entire society. No protection for corruption.

Socialism = Market control centralized in government. Great chance for corruption to affect entire society. Corruption can be protected by armed force.

This sums it up nicely. They seem to think that avarice and greed will go away if government takes control of capital. It won't of course. The corrupt and greedy will just pursue careers in politics rather than business, where they'll have much more power to impose their will on "customers".

I think attitudes toward socialism track pretty closely to attitudes toward democracy. Some people seem to think it's infallible. Even after the 2016 election, they can't seem to shake their conviction that democracy will always produce justice.

 

[georgephillip]

. it cost trillions to avert a full-scale depression. And a lot of places didn't have the money.

Bush cause a real estate bubble in Venezuela?
LOL!

Trump did even worse

Trump’s Sanctions Have Cost Venezuela US$6bn Since August 2017

I can't even tell what your chart measures.

"Venezuelan and Colombian oil prices (OPEC)

"Venezuelan oil production followed essentially the same pattern as Colombia’s during 2016 and most of 2017 –until August when Trump’s sanctions came into force.

"A decline in production was driven by the price of oil hitting its lowest point in about a decade at the start of 2016.

"But in August of 2017 Trump’s sanctions made it illegal for the Venezuelan government to obtain financing from the US which was devastating for two reasons: all the Venezuelan governments’ outstanding foreign currency bonds are governed under New York state law; and one of the Venezuelan government’s major assets, the state-owned CITGO corporation, is based in Texas.

"The sanctions also blocked CITGO from sending profits and dividends back to Venezuela (which had been averaging about US$1 billion per year since 2015)."

Trump’s Sanctions Have Cost Venezuela US$6bn Since August 2017

 

[francoHFW]

On Monday always Democratic fair capitalism with a good safety

[...silly insults deleted]

But how would it be different. You're trying very hard to pretend that socialism isn't any different that capitalism, which makes one wonder "why bother?" Surely you have something in mind. Why hide it?

We do not have Fair capitalism with a good safety net in the United States. It has been a GOP giveaway to the rich and screw the rest for 35 years. If you don't get off your propaganda machine you'll never know....

 

[Two Thumbs]

Who’s Afraid of Socialism? | Open Media Boston

"Capitalism’s incompatibility with majority interests has been reaffirmed by the current economic crisis.

"Earlier, the most severe effects of capitalism had been offset, within the US, by the progressive reforms of the 1930s.

"But capital’s political power was less restrained in this country than it was in the other rich countries.

"Flush with military might and bolstered by a mass right-wing culture of arrogant self-righteousness, US capital launched a withering counterattack against the New Deal legacy, culminating in an almost three-decade orgy of anti-welfare legislation, imperialist aggression, privatization, and deregulation."

Unrestrained profit maximization results in concentrating an enormous amount of surplus capital which can find few safe investments.

"Free market" capitalists turn to highly speculative scams which generate financial bubbles as the real economy continues to be hollowed out and the working class is driven deeper into debt.

Socialism would turn to government for an alternative, but US government is Goldman Sachs regardless of which major party is in control.

the 4 million people that fled Ven.

they fear it so much that they are running to countries that they don't know the language.

 

[georgephillip]

Do you want a large company creating billions in wealth for the whole country? Or a non-profit producing millions?

Why did all of Obamas health care co-ops all fail? Because in general for-profit companies do better.

First of all, large companies create billions in wealth, but they don't distribute that wealth to the whole country. They distribute the vast bulk of those billions to a fraction of the richest one percent of the whole country.

Obama's health care initiatives failed because he once again turned to capitalist whores like Liz Fowler to design his for-profit business interests.
"Obamacare architect leaves White House for pharmaceutical industry job
Glenn Greenwald...

Obamacare architect leaves White House for pharmaceutical industry job | Glenn Greenwald

This isn’t a correct characterization of large companies. They do distribute wealth. They do so to their many employees. To the contractors they hire. To the builders they hire. To the other companies and people they invest in. And to the thousands of shareholders that invest in them. That money doesn’t just stop there either, the secondary recipients just listed go on and spread wealth elsewhere. And yes even the few who do get rich in this scenario do pay taxes, the company pays taxes, and further they are hands down the largest contributors to charity.

Capitalism generates income and wealth more efficiently than any economic system before its arrival. However. it doesn't seem to do an equitable job of distributing the spoils:

What changes do you believe capitalism could make to change its natural tendency of concentrating wealth in fewer and fewer hands with each passing generation?

One chart that shows how much worse income inequality is in America than Europe

"One chart that shows how much worse income inequality is in America than Europe
The income share of the poorest half of Americans is declining while the richest have grabbed more. In Europe, it’s not happening.
By Emily Stewart Jul 29, 2018, 11:43am EDT"

 

[dblack]

On Monday always Democratic fair capitalism with a good safety

[...silly insults deleted]

But how would it be different. You're trying very hard to pretend that socialism isn't any different that capitalism, which makes one wonder "why bother?" Surely you have something in mind. Why hide it?

We do not have Fair capitalism with a good safety net in the United States. It has been a GOP giveaway to the rich and screw the rest for 35 years. If you don't get off your propaganda machine you'll never know....

Tell again about the means of production, George!

 

[francoHFW]

Well regulated under socialism,

On Monday always Democratic fair capitalism with a good safety

[...silly insults deleted]

But how would it be different. You're trying very hard to pretend that socialism isn't any different that capitalism, which makes one wonder "why bother?" Surely you have something in mind. Why hide it?

We do not have Fair capitalism with a good safety net in the United States. It has been a GOP giveaway to the rich and screw the rest for 35 years. If you don't get off your propaganda machine you'll never know....

Tell again about the means of production, George!

Owned and screwed up under communism, a giveaway to the rich mess under the GOP, well regulated and fair under every rich country in the world except us, Super Dupe.

 

[georgephillip]

Who’s Afraid of Socialism? | Open Media Boston

"Capitalism’s incompatibility with majority interests has been reaffirmed by the current economic crisis.

"Earlier, the most severe effects of capitalism had been offset, within the US, by the progressive reforms of the 1930s.

"But capital’s political power was less restrained in this country than it was in the other rich countries.

"Flush with military might and bolstered by a mass right-wing culture of arrogant self-righteousness, US capital launched a withering counterattack against the New Deal legacy, culminating in an almost three-decade orgy of anti-welfare legislation, imperialist aggression, privatization, and deregulation."

Unrestrained profit maximization results in concentrating an enormous amount of surplus capital which can find few safe investments.

"Free market" capitalists turn to highly speculative scams which generate financial bubbles as the real economy continues to be hollowed out and the working class is driven deeper into debt.

Socialism would turn to government for an alternative, but US government is Goldman Sachs regardless of which major party is in control.

the 4 million people that fled Ven.

they fear it so much that they are running to countries that they don't know the language.

the 4 million people that fled Ven.

Which four million refugees are you referring to?

 

[francoHFW]

It is not well regulated socialist capitalism, it is garbage GOP capitalism since 1982. A disgrace.

Do you want a large company creating billions in wealth for the whole country? Or a non-profit producing millions?

Why did all of Obamas health care co-ops all fail? Because in general for-profit companies do better.

First of all, large companies create billions in wealth, but they don't distribute that wealth to the whole country. They distribute the vast bulk of those billions to a fraction of the richest one percent of the whole country.

Obama's health care initiatives failed because he once again turned to capitalist whores like Liz Fowler to design his for-profit business interests.
"Obamacare architect leaves White House for pharmaceutical industry job
Glenn Greenwald...

Obamacare architect leaves White House for pharmaceutical industry job | Glenn Greenwald

This isn’t a correct characterization of large companies. They do distribute wealth. They do so to their many employees. To the contractors they hire. To the builders they hire. To the other companies and people they invest in. And to the thousands of shareholders that invest in them. That money doesn’t just stop there either, the secondary recipients just listed go on and spread wealth elsewhere. And yes even the few who do get rich in this scenario do pay taxes, the company pays taxes, and further they are hands down the largest contributors to charity.

Capitalism generates income and wealth more efficiently than any economic system before its arrival. However. it doesn't seem to do an equitable job of distributing the spoils:

What changes do you believe capitalism could make to change its natural tendency of concentrating wealth in fewer and fewer hands with each passing generation?

One chart that shows how much worse income inequality is in America than Europe

"One chart that shows how much worse income inequality is in America than Europe
The income share of the poorest half of Americans is declining while the richest have grabbed more. In Europe, it’s not happening.
By Emily Stewart Jul 29, 2018, 11:43am EDT"

It is not well regulated Fair socialist capitalism, it is garbage giveaway to the rich GOP capitalism since 1982.

 

[bripat9643]

Ok please tell me you’re not for Maduro. It really sounds like you are.

I'm against the GOP sabotaging democratically elected governments. Especially since the Cold War has been over for 27 years.

I mean have you seen the streets of Caracas this week? I’ve never seen so many humans fill the streets...ever, honestly. It hasn’t ever crossed your mind that maybe Maduro wasn’t really democratically elected recently, and he might just be a dictator.
View attachment 241788

So because Maduro was “elected” must mean he’s a good guy? And that the new opposition leader is bad...because trump backs him?

Oooorrrr. Maybe socialism is as socialism does. Maybe it’s starts out with the best of intentions (a skeptical maybe), but it winds up sucking. And some guy promises to make it stop sucking. It still sucks, so more socialism, and more suck. Fast forward a little bit and a few hundred uppity citizens get gunned down ironically by the “national guard”. The citizens back off, and then realize the guy who took over is a tyrant but can’t do shit about it, and more suck comes and they start having to eat their pets.

Really, just let me hear you say Maduro is good for Venezuela. No more dancing around it. Is Maduro good or bad for Venezuela? You most certainly didn’t deny it. Stick to your guns, and just say it. The left has made movies and named streets after the how awesome socialist Venezuela is just a mere 5 years ago. You got to stick to your guns.

Screw Republicans and screw oligarchs, especially Venezuelan ones. Hands off Venezuela.

And it has very little to do with socialism, which is what they have in France New Zealand etc. Venezuela has always been a third world mess of a country and still is. Trump should come home like he always says he is

New Zealand is ranked #3 on the Heritage Index of Economic Freedom. The US is ranked #18. New Zealand is hardly socialist. You have absolutely no clue what socialism is.

It has everything to do with socialism.

So what is your definition of socialism, brainwashed functional moron? Everybody outside your bubble of GOP crap believes that socialism now means always Democratic fair capitalism with a good safety net. Read something and see the world, brainwashed functional moron Cold War dinosaur.

No they don't, moron, especially not economists. Socialism is government control of the means of production. I've posted this 1000 times. Your definition is self serving. It allows you to ignore any country were socialism led to disaster. The countries you call "socialist" aren't really socialist. You have even admitted that they're capitalist.

 

[bripat9643]

Rich covert bastards who think they know better than us J

You mean they don't become communists until they manage to establish a dictatorship? Somehow I don't find that claim very compelling.

We know it's all America's fault. Isn't everything bad in the world our fault? How did the GOP "sabotage" Chile, Argentina or Venezuela?

The gop's fault dumbass, not America every time.

How was it the GOP's fault, asshole?

Time for you to watch PBS and learn about dictatorships Tama Manley about Mussolini tonight.

How does that explain why it's the GOP's fault?

stupid Rich assholes who think they know better than everyone else. Cut the covert sabotage of other countries. Like Venezuela right now.

You failed to explain how its' the GOP's fault. On thing we know: Every time a country goes down the path of free market capitalism, it thrives. Every time a country goes down the path of socialism, it swirls down the toilet bowl and the people starve.

 

[bripat9643]

Whoa what is fair share? What is this amorphous, subjective term that keeps getting thrown around? At what point is fair share going to be satisfactory? In the European countries there doesn’t seem to be a satisfactory amount so taxes are constantly raised, or they realize continuously raising taxes does not help at all with job creation and they are moving right. And why is it moral to give money to a institution that LOST 1 trillion dollars since the movie the hangover was made? If that was a charity we were giving our hard earned money too, we’d be burning that bitch to the ground.

Sure apple didn’t get where they are on their own. And an interesting tidbit is that military innovation is probably the largest driver of innovation and beneficial tech for the public overall. But for that to happen, a country needs to recognize that the standard bureaucracy that politics always seems to breeds is detrimental to their military and its best to keep it out as much as possible (which many countries have). However, do you believe that if apple were in the business of whatever government dept, well say Medicare, it would be hemorrhaging as much money knowing it’s competing with google for Medicare patients and healthcare providers to use their service? If amazon ran the DMV do you think my drivers license photo would like I was ready to cry tears of rage? Faaack no. Did apple get where they are on their own. No. Did they have some help from government, sure. Was a government loan the driving force of their success, nope. What free markets do is crowd source solutions to humanities problems while rewarding the people who solve those problems. It monetizes service to humanity. After all, why are you going to pay for something that you don’t need or want? Is capatialism a perfect system, hell no. No system is, but it’s the best we have come up with. It’s not fair to capatilism to define it by the areas that is has fallen short of (areas perceived in this current tiny timeframe that’s constantly changing and improving)...but then ignore the tremendous leaps and bounds it has improved human life world wide. Read Enlightenment Now please, by Stephen Pinker, a Harvard psychologist (whose on the left so this isn’t a right wing shill propagandist). It’s absolutely nothing short of a miracle to see how far humanity has come even in the past 20 years. You will be blown away by the stats. Also Better Angels is another good one by him in the same sort of vein. Also, look up Bjorn Lomborg, he has a book (I haven’t read) but has Ted Talks, articles and videos talking about prioritizing the worlds problems and analysis and the best ways to solves them. It’s good stuff, and will show you that these free market things work pretty damn well.

It’s also important to note that the countries the likes of AOC and Bernie cite are not socialists countries. They are free market countries, with larger social programs than we have, and also larger tax rates. Real socialism is what we see in Venezuela (like 5 years ago it was heralded as a admirable success by the far left), and Cuba. Both are hell holes, and hopefully the change of leadership will help Venezuela (once a modern 1st world country with immense resources) get back in its feet. So what do you mean when you’re talking about socialism?

I think you’re simplifying world problems with an equation of government + more money = problems solved. But it’s not that simple, and government, pretty much by nature, is like a hanging flower pot where you turn the hose on full power and drench it, but only see droplets coming out of the bottom. I’m not saying government isn’t capable of any good, or doesn’t have a place. Just that you should honestly question if it is the best vessel for solving problems. Once again, it lost 1 trillion dollars. That’s a full 1/3 of what it takes in annually in tax revenue. 5% of the entire national GDP it carelessly lost in the cushions of the couch within 10 years. Is government really the best way to provide the most good? Is that going to give us the best bang for our buck?

Venezuela was never a first world country, idiot. They were an incredibly corrupt oligarchy. The 1% was first world Maybe.

Certainly one of the most developed, and the most resource rich in SA. I’m not going to argue semantics here. I’m pretty sure they meet the threshold of 1st world, but they’re much worse off now. Which is the main point

Sabotaged and sanctioned by the GOP, now Trump pushing in a new president supposedly. It's a GOP mess.

How, asshole? You keep avoiding an answer to that question.

Read about what is going on in Venezuela today, dumbass.

You mean Maduro making the military swear loyalty to him? How does that make Venezuelan socialism look good? How does that prove that the GOP "sabotaged" the Venezuelan economy?

 

[bripat9643]

Of course a mismanagement of capital has everything to do with capitalism.

Money isn't capital, moron, and even socialist countries have to manage capital.

You're an idiot who doesn't understand the most basic facts of economics.

A socialist economy managing capital is an oxymoron.

I guess it depends on how you define capital. Regardless, someone has to decide how we organize labor and allocate resources. In a free market the people do this collaboratively and voluntarily. How would it happen under socialism?

The only definition that matters is the one that economists use. "Capital" is goods that we used to make other goods. It's not money, and it's not stock certificates or bonds.

Capital is an accumulation of money that is used to purchase something with the express intent of selling it again at a profit.

Wrong. You are so ignorant it must hurt. Read a book on economics. Not a book on Marxist horseshit.

 

[georgephillip]

It is not well regulated socialist capitalism, it is garbage GOP capitalism since 1982. A disgrace.

Do you want a large company creating billions in wealth for the whole country? Or a non-profit producing millions?

Why did all of Obamas health care co-ops all fail? Because in general for-profit companies do better.

First of all, large companies create billions in wealth, but they don't distribute that wealth to the whole country. They distribute the vast bulk of those billions to a fraction of the richest one percent of the whole country.

Obama's health care initiatives failed because he once again turned to capitalist whores like Liz Fowler to design his for-profit business interests.
"Obamacare architect leaves White House for pharmaceutical industry job
Glenn Greenwald...

Obamacare architect leaves White House for pharmaceutical industry job | Glenn Greenwald

This isn’t a correct characterization of large companies. They do distribute wealth. They do so to their many employees. To the contractors they hire. To the builders they hire. To the other companies and people they invest in. And to the thousands of shareholders that invest in them. That money doesn’t just stop there either, the secondary recipients just listed go on and spread wealth elsewhere. And yes even the few who do get rich in this scenario do pay taxes, the company pays taxes, and further they are hands down the largest contributors to charity.

Capitalism generates income and wealth more efficiently than any economic system before its arrival. However. it doesn't seem to do an equitable job of distributing the spoils:

What changes do you believe capitalism could make to change its natural tendency of concentrating wealth in fewer and fewer hands with each passing generation?

One chart that shows how much worse income inequality is in America than Europe

"One chart that shows how much worse income inequality is in America than Europe
The income share of the poorest half of Americans is declining while the richest have grabbed more. In Europe, it’s not happening.
By Emily Stewart Jul 29, 2018, 11:43am EDT"

It is not well regulated Fair socialist capitalism, it is garbage giveaway to the rich GOP capitalism since 1982.

It is not well regulated Fair socialist capitalism, it is garbage giveaway to the rich GOP capitalism since 1982.

I see it as more of a bipartisan betrayal of working class interests, but the overriding problem is the degree of influence the US investor class (richest 10%) has over elected government.

Who’s Afraid of Socialism? | Open Media Boston

"A socialist response involves not just state control of the economy, but working-class control of the state.

"Since the working class is the majority, this means democratic control, but democracy can only be implemented if the majority is organized.

"We are not there yet, but we would be getting there if some of the specific demands of the majority were incorporated into the rescue package – such as environmental conversion, universal healthcare, and (as a necessary precondition to such good things) an end to imperial overreach."

 

[Tehon]

We would organize labor and allocate resources in much the same way we do it in a capitalist system, the market. In a socialist system, collaboratively and voluntarily would be more than just rhetoric.

It would be different in that the market wouldn't determine the price of the commodity. The price would be determined by the amount of labor contained in it.

Yeah. You don't really get this whole "market" concept, do you?

You asked about allocating resources....... We would know how to allocate resources and how to organize labor by seeing what people were consuming in the market.

And how would that work? Would you have government appointed "investors" who watched market trends and allocated resources in response?

Computers can track consumption and inventory and alert the manufacturers when the stock should be replenished.

 

[bripat9643]

You mean they don't become communists until they manage to establish a dictatorship? Somehow I don't find that claim very compelling.

We know it's all America's fault. Isn't everything bad in the world our fault? How did the GOP "sabotage" Chile, Argentina or Venezuela?

Is Fox not mention it? Trump is doing it to Venezuela today. Sanctions and tariffs and covert action everywhere, dumbass. Just like Kissinger did with Argentina and chili and everywhere else. Wake up and smell the coffee. They just wanted to elect their own government. And they were not communist. Democratic Socialist and not Chumps for the GOP. Not America, the GOP piece of s***. Read a history book. The GOP has been grabbing money from people around the world since Teddy Roosevelt and McKinley and Hawaii. Military adventures in the Dominican Republic Cuba Mexico El Salvador Honduras and on and on. Under the GOP. Got it dumbass? And now Trump is doing the worst we've done in sometime, or at least trying to.

And it was the GOP under George W bush that wrecked the world economy in 2008 and made all this stuff worse. It's like the GOP World depression of 1929 that led to chaos and Hitler and Japanese militarists and on and on. Your party is a disgrace and disaster and so are you.

ROFL! What "covert action?" What tariffs did he impost on Venezuela? If socialism is such a superior system, then why does every economic hiccup in the USA wreck it?

It's a wonder how you leftwing idiots rationalize the repeated failure of your schemes. It's always someone else's fault.

No one is fooled.

My left-wing is France Germany Canada New Zealand Australia. Venezuela Argentina Chile are examples of GOP sabotage in the third world or second world at most. Also Obama and ObamaCare. Anything for money for the rich, super duper dupe.

No, they are examples of countries that actually put into practice the policies you endorse. They were, or are, swirling down the socialist toilet bowel. You failed to explain how the US "sabotaged" them.

Germany, Canada, New Zealand and Australia all rank higher one the Heritage Index of Economic Freedom than the United States. They are hardly socialist.

They think they are, brain-washed functional moron.

No they don't. Even the Danish Prime Minister says his country isn't socialist:
Denmark's prime minister says Bernie Sanders is wrong to call his country socialist

 

[Tehon]

Money isn't capital, moron, and even socialist countries have to manage capital.

You're an idiot who doesn't understand the most basic facts of economics.

A socialist economy managing capital is an oxymoron.

I guess it depends on how you define capital. Regardless, someone has to decide how we organize labor and allocate resources. In a free market the people do this collaboratively and voluntarily. How would it happen under socialism?

The only definition that matters is the one that economists use. "Capital" is goods that we used to make other goods. It's not money, and it's not stock certificates or bonds.

Capital is an accumulation of money that is used to purchase something with the express intent of selling it again at a profit.

Wrong. You are so ignorant it must hurt. Read a book on economics. Not a book on Marxist horseshit.

Provide a source for your definition.

 

[bripat9643]

We would organize labor and allocate resources in much the same way we do it in a capitalist system, the market. In a socialist system, collaboratively and voluntarily would be more than just rhetoric.

It would be different in that the market wouldn't determine the price of the commodity. The price would be determined by the amount of labor contained in it.

Yeah. You don't really get this whole "market" concept, do you?

Not at all. He believes a stack of 100 dollar bills is "capital."