Who's Afraid of Socialism?

[dblack]

... someone has to decide how we organize labor and allocate resources. In a free market the people do this collaboratively and voluntarily. How would it happen under socialism?

We would organize labor and allocate resources in much the same way we do it in a capitalist system, the market. In a socialist system, collaboratively and voluntarily would be more than just rhetoric.

Well, that's certainly a non-answer. How would it be different?

 

[francoHFW]

Sabotaged and sanctioned by the GOP, now Trump pushing in a new president supposedly. It's a GOP mess.

Ok please tell me you’re not for Maduro. It really sounds like you are.

I'm against the GOP sabotaging democratically elected governments. Especially since the Cold War has been over for 27 years.

I mean have you seen the streets of Caracas this week? I’ve never seen so many humans fill the streets...ever, honestly. It hasn’t ever crossed your mind that maybe Maduro wasn’t really democratically elected recently, and he might just be a dictator.
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So because Maduro was “elected” must mean he’s a good guy? And that the new opposition leader is bad...because trump backs him?

Oooorrrr. Maybe socialism is as socialism does. Maybe it’s starts out with the best of intentions (a skeptical maybe), but it winds up sucking. And some guy promises to make it stop sucking. It still sucks, so more socialism, and more suck. Fast forward a little bit and a few hundred uppity citizens get gunned down ironically by the “national guard”. The citizens back off, and then realize the guy who took over is a tyrant but can’t do shit about it, and more suck comes and they start having to eat their pets.

Really, just let me hear you say Maduro is good for Venezuela. No more dancing around it. Is Maduro good or bad for Venezuela? You most certainly didn’t deny it. Stick to your guns, and just say it. The left has made movies and named streets after the how awesome socialist Venezuela is just a mere 5 years ago. You got to stick to your guns.

Screw Republicans and screw oligarchs, especially Venezuelan ones. Hands off Venezuela.

And it has very little to do with socialism, which is what they have in France New Zealand etc. Venezuela has always been a third world mess of a country and still is. Trump should come home like he always says he is

New Zealand is ranked #3 on the Heritage Index of Economic Freedom. The US is ranked #18. New Zealand is hardly socialist. You have absolutely no clue what socialism is.

It has everything to do with socialism.

So what is your definition of socialism, brainwashed functional moron? Everybody outside your bubble of GOP crap believes that socialism now means always Democratic fair capitalism with a good safety net. Read something and see the world, brainwashed functional moron Cold War dinosaur.

 

[francoHFW]

Rich covert bastards who think they know better than us J

Communists are dictators, these people were all elected. Iran 1953, Argentina Chile and Venezuela any minute. All sabotaged totally by the GOP. See also Honduras El Salvador Guatemala Mexico etcetera etcetera

You mean they don't become communists until they manage to establish a dictatorship? Somehow I don't find that claim very compelling.

We know it's all America's fault. Isn't everything bad in the world our fault? How did the GOP "sabotage" Chile, Argentina or Venezuela?

The gop's fault dumbass, not America every time.

How was it the GOP's fault, asshole?

Time for you to watch PBS and learn about dictatorships Tama Manley about Mussolini tonight.

How does that explain why it's the GOP's fault?

stupid Rich assholes who think they know better than everyone else. Cut the covert sabotage of other countries. Like Venezuela right now.

 

[francoHFW]

You should also be willing to ask the question : "What role did government play in the creation of Apple Computers?" Starting with its official corporate charter and extending through decades of taxpayer-funded (government) research and development into revolutionary technologies like the Internet, GPS, and touchscreen display.

Apple received its early stage finance from the US government's small business Investment Company program. Venture capitalists entered only after government funding had gotten Apple to the critical proof of concept stage.

Considering everything government contributed to Apple's current $1 trillion market cap, it is also shameful that Apple refuses to should its fair share of the federal tax burden, imho.

Taxpayers Helped Apple, but Apple Won’t Help Them

Whoa what is fair share? What is this amorphous, subjective term that keeps getting thrown around? At what point is fair share going to be satisfactory? In the European countries there doesn’t seem to be a satisfactory amount so taxes are constantly raised, or they realize continuously raising taxes does not help at all with job creation and they are moving right. And why is it moral to give money to a institution that LOST 1 trillion dollars since the movie the hangover was made? If that was a charity we were giving our hard earned money too, we’d be burning that bitch to the ground.

Sure apple didn’t get where they are on their own. And an interesting tidbit is that military innovation is probably the largest driver of innovation and beneficial tech for the public overall. But for that to happen, a country needs to recognize that the standard bureaucracy that politics always seems to breeds is detrimental to their military and its best to keep it out as much as possible (which many countries have). However, do you believe that if apple were in the business of whatever government dept, well say Medicare, it would be hemorrhaging as much money knowing it’s competing with google for Medicare patients and healthcare providers to use their service? If amazon ran the DMV do you think my drivers license photo would like I was ready to cry tears of rage? Faaack no. Did apple get where they are on their own. No. Did they have some help from government, sure. Was a government loan the driving force of their success, nope. What free markets do is crowd source solutions to humanities problems while rewarding the people who solve those problems. It monetizes service to humanity. After all, why are you going to pay for something that you don’t need or want? Is capatialism a perfect system, hell no. No system is, but it’s the best we have come up with. It’s not fair to capatilism to define it by the areas that is has fallen short of (areas perceived in this current tiny timeframe that’s constantly changing and improving)...but then ignore the tremendous leaps and bounds it has improved human life world wide. Read Enlightenment Now please, by Stephen Pinker, a Harvard psychologist (whose on the left so this isn’t a right wing shill propagandist). It’s absolutely nothing short of a miracle to see how far humanity has come even in the past 20 years. You will be blown away by the stats. Also Better Angels is another good one by him in the same sort of vein. Also, look up Bjorn Lomborg, he has a book (I haven’t read) but has Ted Talks, articles and videos talking about prioritizing the worlds problems and analysis and the best ways to solves them. It’s good stuff, and will show you that these free market things work pretty damn well.

It’s also important to note that the countries the likes of AOC and Bernie cite are not socialists countries. They are free market countries, with larger social programs than we have, and also larger tax rates. Real socialism is what we see in Venezuela (like 5 years ago it was heralded as a admirable success by the far left), and Cuba. Both are hell holes, and hopefully the change of leadership will help Venezuela (once a modern 1st world country with immense resources) get back in its feet. So what do you mean when you’re talking about socialism?

I think you’re simplifying world problems with an equation of government + more money = problems solved. But it’s not that simple, and government, pretty much by nature, is like a hanging flower pot where you turn the hose on full power and drench it, but only see droplets coming out of the bottom. I’m not saying government isn’t capable of any good, or doesn’t have a place. Just that you should honestly question if it is the best vessel for solving problems. Once again, it lost 1 trillion dollars. That’s a full 1/3 of what it takes in annually in tax revenue. 5% of the entire national GDP it carelessly lost in the cushions of the couch within 10 years. Is government really the best way to provide the most good? Is that going to give us the best bang for our buck?

Venezuela was never a first world country, idiot. They were an incredibly corrupt oligarchy. The 1% was first world Maybe.

Certainly one of the most developed, and the most resource rich in SA. I’m not going to argue semantics here. I’m pretty sure they meet the threshold of 1st world, but they’re much worse off now. Which is the main point

Sabotaged and sanctioned by the GOP, now Trump pushing in a new president supposedly. It's a GOP mess.

How, asshole? You keep avoiding an answer to that question.

Read about what is going on in Venezuela today, dumbass.

 

[dblack]

So what is your definition of socialism, brainwashed functional moron? Everybody outside your bubble of GOP crap believes that socialism now means always Democratic fair capitalism with a good safety net. ,,, [silly insults removed]

Another non-answer. Democratic fair capitalism with a good safety net is what we have now. How would our dream world be different?

 

[Tehon]

... someone has to decide how we organize labor and allocate resources. In a free market the people do this collaboratively and voluntarily. How would it happen under socialism?

We would organize labor and allocate resources in much the same way we do it in a capitalist system, the market. In a socialist system, collaboratively and voluntarily would be more than just rhetoric.

Well, that's certainly a non-answer. How would it be different?

Baby steps.....

It would be different in that the market wouldn't determine the price of the commodity. The price would be determined by the amount of labor contained in it.

 

[francoHFW]

Communists are dictators, these people were all elected. Iran 1953, Argentina Chile and Venezuela any minute. All sabotaged totally by the GOP. See also Honduras El Salvador Guatemala Mexico etcetera etcetera

You mean they don't become communists until they manage to establish a dictatorship? Somehow I don't find that claim very compelling.

We know it's all America's fault. Isn't everything bad in the world our fault? How did the GOP "sabotage" Chile, Argentina or Venezuela?

Is Fox not mention it? Trump is doing it to Venezuela today. Sanctions and tariffs and covert action everywhere, dumbass. Just like Kissinger did with Argentina and chili and everywhere else. Wake up and smell the coffee. They just wanted to elect their own government. And they were not communist. Democratic Socialist and not Chumps for the GOP. Not America, the GOP piece of s***. Read a history book. The GOP has been grabbing money from people around the world since Teddy Roosevelt and McKinley and Hawaii. Military adventures in the Dominican Republic Cuba Mexico El Salvador Honduras and on and on. Under the GOP. Got it dumbass? And now Trump is doing the worst we've done in sometime, or at least trying to.

And it was the GOP under George W bush that wrecked the world economy in 2008 and made all this stuff worse. It's like the GOP World depression of 1929 that led to chaos and Hitler and Japanese militarists and on and on. Your party is a disgrace and disaster and so are you.

ROFL! What "covert action?" What tariffs did he impost on Venezuela? If socialism is such a superior system, then why does every economic hiccup in the USA wreck it?

It's a wonder how you leftwing idiots rationalize the repeated failure of your schemes. It's always someone else's fault.

No one is fooled.

My left-wing is France Germany Canada New Zealand Australia. Venezuela Argentina Chile are examples of GOP sabotage in the third world or second world at most. Also Obama and ObamaCare. Anything for money for the rich, super duper dupe.

No, they are examples of countries that actually put into practice the policies you endorse. They were, or are, swirling down the socialist toilet bowel. You failed to explain how the US "sabotaged" them.

Germany, Canada, New Zealand and Australia all rank higher one the Heritage Index of Economic Freedom than the United States. They are hardly socialist.

They think they are, brain-washed functional moron.

 

[dblack]

We would organize labor and allocate resources in much the same way we do it in a capitalist system, the market. In a socialist system, collaboratively and voluntarily would be more than just rhetoric.

It would be different in that the market wouldn't determine the price of the commodity. The price would be determined by the amount of labor contained in it.

Yeah. You don't really get this whole "market" concept, do you?

 

[francoHFW]

You should also be willing to ask the question : "What role did government play in the creation of Apple Computers?" Starting with its official corporate charter and extending through decades of taxpayer-funded (government) research and development into revolutionary technologies like the Internet, GPS, and touchscreen display.

Apple received its early stage finance from the US government's small business Investment Company program. Venture capitalists entered only after government funding had gotten Apple to the critical proof of concept stage.

Considering everything government contributed to Apple's current $1 trillion market cap, it is also shameful that Apple refuses to should its fair share of the federal tax burden, imho.

Taxpayers Helped Apple, but Apple Won’t Help Them

Whoa what is fair share? What is this amorphous, subjective term that keeps getting thrown around? At what point is fair share going to be satisfactory? In the European countries there doesn’t seem to be a satisfactory amount so taxes are constantly raised, or they realize continuously raising taxes does not help at all with job creation and they are moving right. And why is it moral to give money to a institution that LOST 1 trillion dollars since the movie the hangover was made? If that was a charity we were giving our hard earned money too, we’d be burning that bitch to the ground.

Sure apple didn’t get where they are on their own. And an interesting tidbit is that military innovation is probably the largest driver of innovation and beneficial tech for the public overall. But for that to happen, a country needs to recognize that the standard bureaucracy that politics always seems to breeds is detrimental to their military and its best to keep it out as much as possible (which many countries have). However, do you believe that if apple were in the business of whatever government dept, well say Medicare, it would be hemorrhaging as much money knowing it’s competing with google for Medicare patients and healthcare providers to use their service? If amazon ran the DMV do you think my drivers license photo would like I was ready to cry tears of rage? Faaack no. Did apple get where they are on their own. No. Did they have some help from government, sure. Was a government loan the driving force of their success, nope. What free markets do is crowd source solutions to humanities problems while rewarding the people who solve those problems. It monetizes service to humanity. After all, why are you going to pay for something that you don’t need or want? Is capatialism a perfect system, hell no. No system is, but it’s the best we have come up with. It’s not fair to capatilism to define it by the areas that is has fallen short of (areas perceived in this current tiny timeframe that’s constantly changing and improving)...but then ignore the tremendous leaps and bounds it has improved human life world wide. Read Enlightenment Now please, by Stephen Pinker, a Harvard psychologist (whose on the left so this isn’t a right wing shill propagandist). It’s absolutely nothing short of a miracle to see how far humanity has come even in the past 20 years. You will be blown away by the stats. Also Better Angels is another good one by him in the same sort of vein. Also, look up Bjorn Lomborg, he has a book (I haven’t read) but has Ted Talks, articles and videos talking about prioritizing the worlds problems and analysis and the best ways to solves them. It’s good stuff, and will show you that these free market things work pretty damn well.

It’s also important to note that the countries the likes of AOC and Bernie cite are not socialists countries. They are free market countries, with larger social programs than we have, and also larger tax rates. Real socialism is what we see in Venezuela (like 5 years ago it was heralded as a admirable success by the far left), and Cuba. Both are hell holes, and hopefully the change of leadership will help Venezuela (once a modern 1st world country with immense resources) get back in its feet. So what do you mean when you’re talking about socialism?

I think you’re simplifying world problems with an equation of government + more money = problems solved. But it’s not that simple, and government, pretty much by nature, is like a hanging flower pot where you turn the hose on full power and drench it, but only see droplets coming out of the bottom. I’m not saying government isn’t capable of any good, or doesn’t have a place. Just that you should honestly question if it is the best vessel for solving problems. Once again, it lost 1 trillion dollars. That’s a full 1/3 of what it takes in annually in tax revenue. 5% of the entire national GDP it carelessly lost in the cushions of the couch within 10 years. Is government really the best way to provide the most good? Is that going to give us the best bang for our buck?

Venezuela was never a first world country, idiot. They were an incredibly corrupt oligarchy. The 1% was first world Maybe.

Certainly one of the most developed, and the most resource rich in SA. I’m not going to argue semantics here. I’m pretty sure they meet the threshold of 1st world, but they’re much worse off now. Which is the main point

Sabotaged and sanctioned by the GOP, now Trump pushing in a new president supposedly. It's a GOP mess.

How was it "sabotaged" by the GOP? Did they put Chavez in power? Did they make him nationalize the oil industry?

Stop telling everyone how ignorant you are, and read something, I am not your mother. Amazing how ignorant and brainwashed the dupes are...

 

[Tehon]

Government running the printing press is mismanagement of government.
Nothing to do with capitalism.

Of course a mismanagement of capital has everything to do with capitalism.

Money isn't capital, moron, and even socialist countries have to manage capital.

You're an idiot who doesn't understand the most basic facts of economics.

A socialist economy managing capital is an oxymoron.

I guess it depends on how you define capital. Regardless, someone has to decide how we organize labor and allocate resources. In a free market the people do this collaboratively and voluntarily. How would it happen under socialism?

The only definition that matters is the one that economists use. "Capital" is goods that we used to make other goods. It's not money, and it's not stock certificates or bonds.

Capital is an accumulation of money that is used to purchase something with the express intent of selling it again at a profit.

 

[francoHFW]

So what is your definition of socialism, brainwashed functional moron? Everybody outside your bubble of GOP crap believes that socialism now means always Democratic fair capitalism with a good safety net. ,,, [silly insults removed]

Another non-answer. Democratic fair capitalism with a good safety net is what we have now. How would our dream world be different?

Well we would be like every other rich country in the world, with a living wage good vacations Health Care daycare paid parental leave, an ID card to end illegal immigration, cheap college and training, higher taxes on the rich instead of our flat tax. How many times do I have to tell you? Look up brainwashed in the dictionary.

 

[Tehon]

We would organize labor and allocate resources in much the same way we do it in a capitalist system, the market. In a socialist system, collaboratively and voluntarily would be more than just rhetoric.

It would be different in that the market wouldn't determine the price of the commodity. The price would be determined by the amount of labor contained in it.

Yeah. You don't really get this whole "market" concept, do you?

You asked about allocating resources....... We would know how to allocate resources and how to organize labor by seeing what people were consuming in the market.

 

[francoHFW]

So what is your definition of socialism, brainwashed functional moron? Everybody outside your bubble of GOP crap believes that socialism now means always Democratic fair capitalism with a good safety net. ,,, [silly insults removed]

Another non-answer. Democratic fair capitalism with a good safety net is what we have now. How would our dream world be different?

That's why we have the worst upward mobility and worst inequality of any rich country and have basically no benefits. The scumbag greedy idiot Rich GOP and silly brainwashed fools Like you...

 

[francoHFW]

Who knows? That's been screwed up so bad by the GOP World depression of 2008 and Trump's sabotage, who knows? How about leaving other countries alone?

Sabotaged and sanctioned by the GOP, now Trump pushing in a new president supposedly. It's a GOP mess.

Ok please tell me you’re not for Maduro. It really sounds like you are.

I'm against the GOP sabotaging democratically elected governments. Especially since the Cold War has been over for 27 years.

I mean have you seen the streets of Caracas this week? I’ve never seen so many humans fill the streets...ever, honestly. It hasn’t ever crossed your mind that maybe Maduro wasn’t really democratically elected recently, and he might just be a dictator.
View attachment 241788

So because Maduro was “elected” must mean he’s a good guy? And that the new opposition leader is bad...because trump backs him?

Oooorrrr. Maybe socialism is as socialism does. Maybe it’s starts out with the best of intentions (a skeptical maybe), but it winds up sucking. And some guy promises to make it stop sucking. It still sucks, so more socialism, and more suck. Fast forward a little bit and a few hundred uppity citizens get gunned down ironically by the “national guard”. The citizens back off, and then realize the guy who took over is a tyrant but can’t do shit about it, and more suck comes and they start having to eat their pets.

Really, just let me hear you say Maduro is good for Venezuela. No more dancing around it. Is Maduro good or bad for Venezuela? You most certainly didn’t deny it. Stick to your guns, and just say it. The left has made movies and named streets after the how awesome socialist Venezuela is just a mere 5 years ago. You got to stick to your guns.

We should leave other countries alone, as only Republicans can't do that. They're a catastrophe. The GOP screwed up the world's economy in 2008 and Trump has been screwing with Venezuela's since he got in. And the Venezuelan oligarchy are complete assholes. let democracy reign.

You can't blame everything on the 2008 recession, especially not Venezuela. Do you recall the price of gas back them? It went over $4.00/gal. Venezuela was raking in the mazuma. How did the GOP screw up the entire world economy? What has Trump done to Venezuela? Not a thing, as far as I'm aware. He hasn't imposed any tariffs or sanctions on them.

It's obvious that your just spouting off random excuses in the hope that someone will fall for one.

Typical GOP brainwashed functional moron who has no clue about what is going on in the world. Since Fox and Rush never tell you. Or whoever! All the same garbage propaganda. Here, this has GOP sabotaging Chile Argentina and Venezuela, and ObamaCare even. Have you ever considered reading something? LOL
https://www.google.com/search?q=how...roid-motorola&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

You failed to name any specific actions against Venezuela, Argentina or Chile. Furthermore, Venezuela didn't start going South in 2008, and the price of oil was sky high then. It really started tanking about 5 years ago. You know, right in the middle of Obama's miraculous recovery. They were going down while we were going up.

You're excuses for the failure of socialism just don't wash.

They were having a crisis of capital. Their currency was worthless. That is a failure of capitalism.

Their currency was worthless. That is a failure of capitalism.

Capitalism doesn't run the printing presses that's the government (central bank).

Correct, it was a mismanagement of capital(ism).

Government running the printing press is mismanagement of government.
Nothing to do with capitalism.

Of course a mismanagement of capital has everything to do with capitalism.

Government mismanaged the money supply, government mismanaged the state run oil company.
Neither was the fault of capitalism.

 

[Wry Catcher]

They were having a crisis of capital. Their currency was worthless. That is a failure of capitalism.

Their currency was worthless. That is a failure of capitalism.

Capitalism doesn't run the printing presses that's the government (central bank).

Correct, it was a mismanagement of capital(ism).

Government running the printing press is mismanagement of government.
Nothing to do with capitalism.

Of course a mismanagement of capital has everything to do with capitalism.

Government mismanaged the money supply, government mismanaged the state run oil company.
Neither was the fault of capitalism.

Neither was the fault of Capitalism? How do you know? Was the Tea Pot Dome Scandal a product of Socialism?

My concern with Venezuela is Trump has tried everything to obstruct the Mueller Investigation but invade another country. I have no doubt trump's lack of moral integrity would have no reservations in putting our military in harms way as a means to save his ass from Impeachment and conviction.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Their currency was worthless. That is a failure of capitalism.

Capitalism doesn't run the printing presses that's the government (central bank).

Correct, it was a mismanagement of capital(ism).

Government running the printing press is mismanagement of government.
Nothing to do with capitalism.

Of course a mismanagement of capital has everything to do with capitalism.

Government mismanaged the money supply, government mismanaged the state run oil company.
Neither was the fault of capitalism.

Neither was the fault of Capitalism? How do you know? Was the Tea Pot Dome Scandal a product of Socialism?

My concern with Venezuela is Trump has tried everything to obstruct the Mueller Investigation but invade another country. I have no doubt trump's lack of moral integrity would have no reservations in putting our military in harms way as a means to save his ass from Impeachment and conviction.

Neither was the fault of Capitalism?

Did capitalism force them to print so much money that they suffered from hyper-inflation?
How did capitalism manage to do that?

 

[BasicHumanUnit]

Capitalism = Large variety of Corporations & smaller merchants control markets. MUCH LESS chance for corruption affecting entire society. No protection for corruption.

Socialism = Market control centralized in government. Great chance for corruption to affect entire society. Corruption can be protected by armed force.

 

[dblack]

[...silly insults deleted]

But how would it be different. You're trying very hard to pretend that socialism isn't any different that capitalism, which makes one wonder "why bother?" Surely you have something in mind. Why hide it?

 

[dblack]

We would organize labor and allocate resources in much the same way we do it in a capitalist system, the market. In a socialist system, collaboratively and voluntarily would be more than just rhetoric.

It would be different in that the market wouldn't determine the price of the commodity. The price would be determined by the amount of labor contained in it.

Yeah. You don't really get this whole "market" concept, do you?

You asked about allocating resources....... We would know how to allocate resources and how to organize labor by seeing what people were consuming in the market.

And how would that work? Would you have government appointed "investors" who watched market trends and allocated resources in response?