Who is the Liar?

[Indeependent]

Their country they get to decide who gets in. That's how it works.

Yes, unequally. The whole point of the thread.

Yes, they are surrounded by over 700 million Arab Muslims and they already have over two million, with limited space and resources. Plus, the countries they are coming from are extremely hostile to Israel and the Jews.

Yeah that's the price of claiming the most blood-soaked land on Earth as yours alone.

What is it with you that you wish to believe that the Israel, Judea and Samaria are the "most blood-soaked land on the earth" ?

How dare you forget what happened in Europe during WWII?
Or what happened in Armenia during WWI?
Or in Sudan?

And the Land of Israel IS and has always been, according to the Christians and Muslims themselves - a land which belongs to the Jewish People, where Jewish History was born.

The Land does belong to the Jews, you like it or not.

People have been slaughtering each other for millennia over religious nonsense in the "holy" land. So yes, the most blood-soaked land on the planet. I don't care who, of the 3 billion people that claim it, the land belongs to. I care that they've somehow roped the U.S. into their meaningless squabble.

Compared to the blood soaked Europe and Islamic land, Israel is nothing.

 

[Indeependent]

Have the Japanese and Koreans been slaughtering each other for thousands of years because magical beliefs call on them to? Are they currently occupying each other's territories because of some mystical claim they say they have?

You are missing my point. No, they are not. You know why? Because the Japanese never got it in their heads that Korea and Korean culture is actually theirs. They did not try to usurp Korean historical and religious narratives and sites. They recognized themselves as invaders and so did the rest of the world. So when the Korean people liberated themselves from their invaders, the wrong was righted.

The equivalent in the context of the Arab/Israel debate is that there are no such thing as Koreans, that Koreans were all destroyed 2000 years ago. And that the true Koreans are the Japanese.

The people living there before the UN created Israel were not "invaders."

You want to put it in context? Okay, suppose tomorrow the UN tells Alabama they're going to make it a Native American state ruled by Native Americans, and starts flying in millions of Native Americans. Then the Native Americans declare that only Native Americans can move there. Do the people of Alabama have a legitimate grievance?

We are now off topic, btw. For the record, I do not favor the Israeli side, nor the Palestinian side. I just want the U.S. out of the mess.

Like I have said before, oh self-hating assimilated, communist, useless Jew, let's all go back to our original post-Noah lands.

 

[Shusha]

The people living there before the UN created Israel were not "invaders."

1. The UN does not have the power to create States. So, right away I know your understanding of the conflict is limited and incorrect.

2. Current possession does not preclude previous invasion. Cases in point: Many Jewish people are currently in possession of Israel. Therefore they are not invaders. Many Europeans (and their descendants) are currently in possession of the United States. Therefore, they are not invaders.

You want to put it in context? Okay, suppose tomorrow the UN tells Alabama they're going to make it a Native American state ruled by Native Americans, and starts flying in millions of Native Americans. Then the Native Americans declare that only Native Americans can move there. Do the people of Alabama have a legitimate grievance?

Absolutely, unequivocally, NO! The people of Alabama have absolutely no grievance against the rights of the First Nations peoples to be present in the nation of their history and ancestry. Nor do they have the right to grieve against First Nations right to self-determination. I fully, absolutely support the rights of the First Nations peoples around the world.

But THANK YOU for acknowledging, truthfully, that the Jewish people are, in point of fact, equivalent to the First Nations peoples in this context and that the Arabs are the colonizers.

The solution for conflicts between indigenous peoples and people of long term residence is mutual co-operation and failing that, division of territory and mutual recognition.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The people living there before the UN created Israel were not "invaders."

1. The UN does not have the power to create States. So, right away I know your understanding of the conflict is limited and incorrect.

2. Current possession does not preclude previous invasion. Cases in point: Many Jewish people are currently in possession of Israel. Therefore they are not invaders. Many Europeans (and their descendants) are currently in possession of the United States. Therefore, they are not invaders.

You want to put it in context? Okay, suppose tomorrow the UN tells Alabama they're going to make it a Native American state ruled by Native Americans, and starts flying in millions of Native Americans. Then the Native Americans declare that only Native Americans can move there. Do the people of Alabama have a legitimate grievance?

Absolutely, unequivocally, NO! The people of Alabama have absolutely no grievance against the rights of the First Nations peoples to be present in the nation of their history and ancestry. Nor do they have the right to grieve against First Nations right to self-determination. I fully, absolutely support the rights of the First Nations peoples around the world.

But THANK YOU for acknowledging, truthfully, that the Jewish people are, in point of fact, equivalent to the First Nations peoples in this context and that the Arabs are the colonizers.

The solution for conflicts between indigenous peoples and people of long term residence is mutual co-operation and failing that, division of territory and mutual recognition.

1. The UN does not have the power to create States.

100% correct.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Their country they get to decide who gets in. That's how it works.

Yes, unequally. The whole point of the thread.

Yes, they are surrounded by over 700 million Arab Muslims and they already have over two million, with limited space and resources. Plus, the countries they are coming from are extremely hostile to Israel and the Jews.

Yeah that's the price of claiming the most blood-soaked land on Earth as yours alone.

What is it with you that you wish to believe that the Israel, Judea and Samaria are the "most blood-soaked land on the earth" ?

How dare you forget what happened in Europe during WWII?
Or what happened in Armenia during WWI?
Or in Sudan?

And the Land of Israel IS and has always been, according to the Christians and Muslims themselves - a land which belongs to the Jewish People, where Jewish History was born.

The Land does belong to the Jews, you like it or not.

People have been slaughtering each other for millennia over religious nonsense in the "holy" land. So yes, the most blood-soaked land on the planet. I don't care who, of the 3 billion people that claim it, the land belongs to. I care that they've somehow roped the U.S. into their meaningless squabble.

Nonsense.

1) You do not know the history of any cult and religion to consider the Land of Israel the "most blood-soaked land on the planet".

It does not belong to Christians to killed a lot of people, and it does not belong to Muslims who have also killed a lot of people, both of them ALL OVER the world.

The US is in it for its own interests.
The same as it had interests in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Syria, etc.

The US is a big boy who can decide where and if it gets involved in anything. And it is usually for its own interests in the regions, be it
territory, oil, or anything else.

Russia, Iran, Turkey and many other countries follow the same ideology. Whatever interests them, will get them involved into one part of the world or another.

You would have to convince every US government to only mind its own business, and not get involved in any other "squabble" in the world.

Good luck with that.

 

[Roudy]

The Arabs who live in Israel and chosen to become citizens of that country, and more and more of them are choosing to do so, are in total disagreement of what you are saying.

They would tell me they undergo the same process as a Jewish person who wants to move there?

Their country they get to decide who gets in. That's how it works.

Yes, unequally. The whole point of the thread.

Yes, they are surrounded by over 700 million Arab Muslims and they already have over two million, with limited space and resources. Plus, the countries they are coming from are extremely hostile to Israel and the Jews.

Yeah that's the price of claiming the most blood-soaked land on Earth as yours alone.

It is and has always been their land, and the center of their faith and identity as a people for 4000 years.

 

[Roudy]

What's with the "Right? Right?!" thing? it makes you sound weird.

And to answer truthfully, probably not. But that is not to be a mojor problem, because, again, there is a mass community of non-Jews. The exact process? I don't know it, I never had to go through it. But you realize now that you're grasping at straws, don't you? first you hint that living moving to Israel is nearly impossible if you're not Jews, now "Oh, it's possible, but very difficult".

Keep this rate, and you might actually come to the truth at some point.

You are completely dodging the question. This thread is about equal rights. Is the process for non-Jews the same for moving to Israel as it is for Jewish people? Yes or no.

Equal rights do not apply to non citizens, dufus. A country has the right to decide who it wants to allow inside its borders and how many.

According to international law, Palestinian refugees are Israeli citizens. It is not a matter of immigration.

Ha ha ha. Stop making up shit. Are those the same so called Palestinians who after the unsuccessful attempt to destroy the Jewish state in 1948, were kept in concentration camp style conditions in Gaza and West Bank by fellow Arab Jordanians and Egyptians for twenty years?!

OMG what a dipshit.

Deflection.

What do you mean deflection, moron? You claimed the so called Palestinian refugees should automatically be Israeli citizens and I showed how idiotic your claim was when applied to the 20 year occupation of West Bank and Gaza by Jordan and Egypt from 1948 to 1967.

 

[Roudy]

monte, you said that you've been to Israel, unlike Tinmore, Challenger and Eloy who've never been there, and thusly don't know what they're talking about when it comes to Israel and Palestine. But I don't believe you've been there and think you are a liar. Otherwise, how can you compare Israel proper to South Africa and Rhodesia? Anyone who has actually been there knows that Arabs have equal rights in Israel proper. 25 countries in the world have a cross on their flag, 15 have a crescent, so 1 country in the world can have a Star of David. It doesn't mean Israel isn't democratic.

I've never been to Nazi Germany or Communist Russia, or Apartheid Souith Africa but the world knows an awfull lot about all those regimes, Zionist Israel is no different.

Actually you just proved you know jack shit by comparing Israel to Nazi Germany or Communist Russia.

 

[Roudy]

Link?

Quit playing games and get out of the vortex. You know very well what I am going to say because I've said it a hundred times before. And then you run away and ignore it.

Jewish National Home. Its in all the treaties and legal documents of the time. And you can argue all you want that no one intended for the Jewish people to actually have sovereignty over their ancestral and historical homeland (because Jooooos!), but its all so much bullshit because, hey guess what, the entire international community accepted Israel's sovereignty by UN declaration and universal recognition.

The dispute is not about whether the Jewish people are entitled to the territory (they clearly are).

I always get the same response to that question,

And you always abandon the argument at this point. Because you can't address it.

It always ends this way with Tinmore, he starts rambling after his argument is completely demolished.

 

[Roudy]

Have the Japanese and Koreans been slaughtering each other for thousands of years because magical beliefs call on them to? Are they currently occupying each other's territories because of some mystical claim they say they have?

You are missing my point. No, they are not. You know why? Because the Japanese never got it in their heads that Korea and Korean culture is actually theirs. They did not try to usurp Korean historical and religious narratives and sites. They recognized themselves as invaders and so did the rest of the world. So when the Korean people liberated themselves from their invaders, the wrong was righted.

The equivalent in the context of the Arab/Israel debate is that there are no such thing as Koreans, that Koreans were all destroyed 2000 years ago. And that the true Koreans are the Japanese.

The people living there before the UN created Israel were not "invaders."

You want to put it in context? Okay, suppose tomorrow the UN tells Alabama they're going to make it a Native American state ruled by Native Americans, and starts flying in millions of Native Americans. Then the Native Americans declare that only Native Americans can move there. Do the people of Alabama have a legitimate grievance?

We are now off topic, btw. For the record, I do not favor the Israeli side, nor the Palestinian side. I just want the U.S. out of the mess.

There was always a significant Jewish presence and various communities over the millennia. But again, the "people" had no say. It was Ottoman ruled land and then conquered the British and Western powers after WWI. The "people" had no say. If Western powers wanted to gift the conquered territory to the Chinese they could have.

 

[Shusha]

Link?

Quit playing games and get out of the vortex. You know very well what I am going to say because I've said it a hundred times before. And then you run away and ignore it.

Jewish National Home. Its in all the treaties and legal documents of the time. And you can argue all you want that no one intended for the Jewish people to actually have sovereignty over their ancestral and historical homeland (because Jooooos!), but its all so much bullshit because, hey guess what, the entire international community accepted Israel's sovereignty by UN declaration and universal recognition.

The dispute is not about whether the Jewish people are entitled to the territory (they clearly are).

I always get the same response to that question,

And you always abandon the argument at this point. Because you can't address it.

The question must be answered before the discussion can proceed.

Case in point. Into the Vortex we go. What question has not been answered.

 

[P F Tinmore]

You are completely dodging the question. This thread is about equal rights. Is the process for non-Jews the same for moving to Israel as it is for Jewish people? Yes or no.

Equal rights do not apply to non citizens, dufus. A country has the right to decide who it wants to allow inside its borders and how many.

According to international law, Palestinian refugees are Israeli citizens. It is not a matter of immigration.

Ha ha ha. Stop making up shit. Are those the same so called Palestinians who after the unsuccessful attempt to destroy the Jewish state in 1948, were kept in concentration camp style conditions in Gaza and West Bank by fellow Arab Jordanians and Egyptians for twenty years?!

OMG what a dipshit.

Deflection.

What do you mean deflection, moron? You claimed the so called Palestinian refugees should automatically be Israeli citizens and I showed how idiotic your claim was when applied to the 20 year occupation of West Bank and Gaza by Jordan and Egypt from 1948 to 1967.

Occupations do not change citizenship.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Link?

Quit playing games and get out of the vortex. You know very well what I am going to say because I've said it a hundred times before. And then you run away and ignore it.

Jewish National Home. Its in all the treaties and legal documents of the time. And you can argue all you want that no one intended for the Jewish people to actually have sovereignty over their ancestral and historical homeland (because Jooooos!), but its all so much bullshit because, hey guess what, the entire international community accepted Israel's sovereignty by UN declaration and universal recognition.

The dispute is not about whether the Jewish people are entitled to the territory (they clearly are).

I always get the same response to that question,

And you always abandon the argument at this point. Because you can't address it.

The question must be answered before the discussion can proceed.

Case in point. Into the Vortex we go. What question has not been answered.

How many of those Zionists went to reclaim their homes or farms that their ancestors lost back when?

 

[Shusha]

How many of those Zionists went to reclaim their homes or farms that their ancestors lost back when?

About six million so far. Would have been more, had not the Jewish people been reduced to half their number in the Shoah.

Are you trying to point out that people who don't return to reclaim their homes have no rights to their homes?

 

[P F Tinmore]

How many of those Zionists went to reclaim their homes or farms that their ancestors lost back when?

About six million so far. Would have been more, had not the Jewish people been reduced to half their number in the Shoah.

Are you trying to point out that people who don't return to reclaim their homes have no rights to their homes?

I didn't see anyone reclaiming his home. They all just lived in colonies.

 

[Roudy]

Equal rights do not apply to non citizens, dufus. A country has the right to decide who it wants to allow inside its borders and how many.

According to international law, Palestinian refugees are Israeli citizens. It is not a matter of immigration.

Ha ha ha. Stop making up shit. Are those the same so called Palestinians who after the unsuccessful attempt to destroy the Jewish state in 1948, were kept in concentration camp style conditions in Gaza and West Bank by fellow Arab Jordanians and Egyptians for twenty years?!

OMG what a dipshit.

Deflection.

What do you mean deflection, moron? You claimed the so called Palestinian refugees should automatically be Israeli citizens and I showed how idiotic your claim was when applied to the 20 year occupation of West Bank and Gaza by Jordan and Egypt from 1948 to 1967.

Occupations do not change citizenship.

So what country were they "citizens" of while under Jordanian and Egyptian occupation?

 

[P F Tinmore]

According to international law, Palestinian refugees are Israeli citizens. It is not a matter of immigration.

Ha ha ha. Stop making up shit. Are those the same so called Palestinians who after the unsuccessful attempt to destroy the Jewish state in 1948, were kept in concentration camp style conditions in Gaza and West Bank by fellow Arab Jordanians and Egyptians for twenty years?!

OMG what a dipshit.

Deflection.

What do you mean deflection, moron? You claimed the so called Palestinian refugees should automatically be Israeli citizens and I showed how idiotic your claim was when applied to the 20 year occupation of West Bank and Gaza by Jordan and Egypt from 1948 to 1967.

Occupations do not change citizenship.

So what country were they "citizens" of while under Jordanian and Egyptian occupation?

Palestine.

 

[Lipush]

Netanyahu was elected democratically. He was elected because his opponent, Hertzog, has as much charisma as a 10 year old comic nerd. His election method was all wrong and that is why he, as well as his camp - lost.

The Arabs don't want to be in the coalition because many of them don't think the Israeli government is legitimate. They want some kind of negative influence on the right.

I remember Netanyahu urging Jews to vote in the last election by saying the filthy Arabs were being bussed in to vote. Not sure he said "filthy," but it's certainly implied.

He didn't say filthy, that's a brutal editing.

And he said so since the right is known to sleep guard and not voting, believing its in their hands. He said that the Arab civilians, who are mostly the left camp, are rushing to vote, and if there is any chance at beating the left the Jews should go too. I don't find anything wrong with what he said. He wanted to urge his own voters to use their democratic rights. It may have sounded a bit bad but the original statement was not racist.

 

[fanger]

How many of those Zionists went to reclaim their homes or farms that their ancestors lost back when?

About six million so far. Would have been more, had not the Jewish people been reduced to half their number in the Shoah.

Are you trying to point out that people who don't return to reclaim their homes have no rights to their homes?

The 'Absentees Property Law'
two million dunams were confiscated and given to the custodian, who later transferred the land to the development authority. This law created the novel citizenship category of "present absentees" (nifkadim nohahim), persons present at the time but considered absent for the purpose of the law. These Israeli Arabs enjoyed all civil rights-including the right to vote in the Knesset elections-except one: the right to use and dispose of their property. About 30,000-35,000 Palestinians became "present absentees"

 

[Lipush]

I thought that according to you, the State of Israel doesn't exist.

That is assuming that Israel is a legitimate state. Nobody has proven that to be true.

Nobody has proven it isn't true.

That is because everybody ducks my questions. Israel could have only acquired land in two ways.

Illegally by force.

Legally by treaty.

Which one was it?

We wanted the second. The enemy forced us to the first.

They wouldn't give you their land so you had to steal it by force.

Gotcha!

How can you steal land? The land existed for thousands of years. It doesn't belong to the Jews or the Arabs. We're fighting for the right to sit on it, but it's not ours or others to steal.

It's like flea fighting over who owns the dog they're sitting on.