Who is the Liar?

[P F Tinmore]

That is assuming that Israel is a legitimate state. Nobody has proven that to be true.

Nobody has proven it isn't true.

That is because everybody ducks my questions. Israel could have only acquired land in two ways.

Illegally by force.

Legally by treaty.

Which one was it?

We wanted the second. The enemy forced us to the first.

They wouldn't give you their land so you had to steal it by force.

Gotcha!

Arabs acquired the partition resolution through riots, violence, murder and expulsion of Jews from 1920 on.

Your history of the area starts always and only in 1948.
The Arabs chose war, rather than partition and peace.
They chose to leave or fight and be expelled once they lost the war they started.

You cannot live with that truth, that is an issue only you need to deal with.

Yes, force is what the Jews had to use to stay alive, to survive the onslaught of 7 different armies, helped by the British themselves, going totally against the Mandate they had to recreate sovereignty for the Jews on the Ancient Jewish Homeland.

By all means, never EVER, deal with that.

The Arabs chose war, rather than partition and peace.

What were they going to partition?

 

[Challenger]

monte, you said that you've been to Israel, unlike Tinmore, Challenger and Eloy who've never been there, and thusly don't know what they're talking about when it comes to Israel and Palestine. But I don't believe you've been there and think you are a liar. Otherwise, how can you compare Israel proper to South Africa and Rhodesia? Anyone who has actually been there knows that Arabs have equal rights in Israel proper. 25 countries in the world have a cross on their flag, 15 have a crescent, so 1 country in the world can have a Star of David. It doesn't mean Israel isn't democratic.

I've never been to Nazi Germany or Communist Russia, or Apartheid Souith Africa but the world knows an awfull lot about all those regimes, Zionist Israel is no different.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Nobody has proven it isn't true.

That is because everybody ducks my questions. Israel could have only acquired land in two ways.

Illegally by force.

Legally by treaty.

Which one was it?

We wanted the second. The enemy forced us to the first.

They wouldn't give you their land so you had to steal it by force.

Gotcha!

Arabs acquired the partition resolution through riots, violence, murder and expulsion of Jews from 1920 on.

Your history of the area starts always and only in 1948.
The Arabs chose war, rather than partition and peace.
They chose to leave or fight and be expelled once they lost the war they started.

You cannot live with that truth, that is an issue only you need to deal with.

Yes, force is what the Jews had to use to stay alive, to survive the onslaught of 7 different armies, helped by the British themselves, going totally against the Mandate they had to recreate sovereignty for the Jews on the Ancient Jewish Homeland.

By all means, never EVER, deal with that.

The Arabs chose war, rather than partition and peace.

What were they going to partition?

Pleaseeeeeee, stop showing your vicious ignorance, which is no ignorance at all , but just viciousness to anything about Jews and their right to their ancient Homeland.

The Land of Israel belongs to the Jews.
The Arabs say so themselves.

It is a laugh the fact that you keep trying to undo a truth which the Arabs themselves have confessed to be uncontested.

 

[P F Tinmore]

That is because everybody ducks my questions. Israel could have only acquired land in two ways.

Illegally by force.

Legally by treaty.

Which one was it?

We wanted the second. The enemy forced us to the first.

They wouldn't give you their land so you had to steal it by force.

Gotcha!

Arabs acquired the partition resolution through riots, violence, murder and expulsion of Jews from 1920 on.

Your history of the area starts always and only in 1948.
The Arabs chose war, rather than partition and peace.
They chose to leave or fight and be expelled once they lost the war they started.

You cannot live with that truth, that is an issue only you need to deal with.

Yes, force is what the Jews had to use to stay alive, to survive the onslaught of 7 different armies, helped by the British themselves, going totally against the Mandate they had to recreate sovereignty for the Jews on the Ancient Jewish Homeland.

By all means, never EVER, deal with that.

The Arabs chose war, rather than partition and peace.

What were they going to partition?

Pleaseeeeeee, stop showing your vicious ignorance, which is no ignorance at all , but just viciousness to anything about Jews and their right to their ancient Homeland.

The Land of Israel belongs to the Jews.
The Arabs say so themselves.

It is a laugh the fact that you keep trying to undo a truth which the Arabs themselves have confessed to be uncontested.

Nice duck.

 

[Sixties Fan]

monte, you said that you've been to Israel, unlike Tinmore, Challenger and Eloy who've never been there, and thusly don't know what they're talking about when it comes to Israel and Palestine. But I don't believe you've been there and think you are a liar. Otherwise, how can you compare Israel proper to South Africa and Rhodesia? Anyone who has actually been there knows that Arabs have equal rights in Israel proper. 25 countries in the world have a cross on their flag, 15 have a crescent, so 1 country in the world can have a Star of David. It doesn't mean Israel isn't democratic.

I've never been to Nazi Germany or Communist Russia, or Apartheid Souith Africa but the world knows an awfull lot about all those regimes, Zionist Israel is no different.

And you are going to prove your saying exactly HOW ???

Zionism (Hebrew: צִיּוֹנוּת‎ Tsiyyonut IPA: [t͡sijo̞ˈnut] after Zion) is the national movement of the Jewish people that supports the re-establishment of a Jewish homeland in the territory defined as the historic Land of Israel (roughly corresponding to Canaan, the Holy Land, or the Roman-named region Palestine)

----------

What does reestablishing one's sovereignty over one's ancient homeland have to do with Naziism, Communism or Apartheid, all of which invaded other people's land, instead of trying to re-establish
sovereignty over their ancient homelands.
None of them had any of their ancient land taken by invaders.
They were the invaders, be it the Germans, the Russians, the British or the Dutch.

Tough understanding something so simple.

 

[Sixties Fan]

We wanted the second. The enemy forced us to the first.

They wouldn't give you their land so you had to steal it by force.

Gotcha!

Arabs acquired the partition resolution through riots, violence, murder and expulsion of Jews from 1920 on.

Your history of the area starts always and only in 1948.
The Arabs chose war, rather than partition and peace.
They chose to leave or fight and be expelled once they lost the war they started.

You cannot live with that truth, that is an issue only you need to deal with.

Yes, force is what the Jews had to use to stay alive, to survive the onslaught of 7 different armies, helped by the British themselves, going totally against the Mandate they had to recreate sovereignty for the Jews on the Ancient Jewish Homeland.

By all means, never EVER, deal with that.

The Arabs chose war, rather than partition and peace.

What were they going to partition?

Pleaseeeeeee, stop showing your vicious ignorance, which is no ignorance at all , but just viciousness to anything about Jews and their right to their ancient Homeland.

The Land of Israel belongs to the Jews.
The Arabs say so themselves.

It is a laugh the fact that you keep trying to undo a truth which the Arabs themselves have confessed to be uncontested.

Nice duck.

You are the only duck wobbling around here

 

[P F Tinmore]

monte, you said that you've been to Israel, unlike Tinmore, Challenger and Eloy who've never been there, and thusly don't know what they're talking about when it comes to Israel and Palestine. But I don't believe you've been there and think you are a liar. Otherwise, how can you compare Israel proper to South Africa and Rhodesia? Anyone who has actually been there knows that Arabs have equal rights in Israel proper. 25 countries in the world have a cross on their flag, 15 have a crescent, so 1 country in the world can have a Star of David. It doesn't mean Israel isn't democratic.

I've never been to Nazi Germany or Communist Russia, or Apartheid Souith Africa but the world knows an awfull lot about all those regimes, Zionist Israel is no different.

And you are going to prove your saying exactly HOW ???

Zionism (Hebrew: צִיּוֹנוּת‎ Tsiyyonut IPA: [t͡sijo̞ˈnut] after Zion) is the national movement of the Jewish people that supports the re-establishment of a Jewish homeland in the territory defined as the historic Land of Israel (roughly corresponding to Canaan, the Holy Land, or the Roman-named region Palestine)

----------

What does reestablishing one's sovereignty over one's ancient homeland have to do with Naziism, Communism or Apartheid, all of which invaded other people's land, instead of trying to re-establish
sovereignty over their ancient homelands.
None of them had any of their ancient land taken by invaders.
They were the invaders, be it the Germans, the Russians, the British or the Dutch.

Tough understanding something so simple.

How many of those Zionists went to reclaim their homes or farms that their ancestors lost back when?

 

[TheOldSchool]

They would tell me they undergo the same process as a Jewish person who wants to move there?

Their country they get to decide who gets in. That's how it works.

Yes, unequally. The whole point of the thread.

Yes, they are surrounded by over 700 million Arab Muslims and they already have over two million, with limited space and resources. Plus, the countries they are coming from are extremely hostile to Israel and the Jews.

Yeah that's the price of claiming the most blood-soaked land on Earth as yours alone.

What is it with you that you wish to believe that the Israel, Judea and Samaria are the "most blood-soaked land on the earth" ?

How dare you forget what happened in Europe during WWII?
Or what happened in Armenia during WWI?
Or in Sudan?

And the Land of Israel IS and has always been, according to the Christians and Muslims themselves - a land which belongs to the Jewish People, where Jewish History was born.

The Land does belong to the Jews, you like it or not.

People have been slaughtering each other for millennia over religious nonsense in the "holy" land. So yes, the most blood-soaked land on the planet. I don't care who, of the 3 billion people that claim it, the land belongs to. I care that they've somehow roped the U.S. into their meaningless squabble.

 

[Shusha]

That is because everybody ducks my questions. Israel could have only acquired land in two ways.

Illegally by force.

Legally by treaty.

Which one was it?

Legally by treaty. Duh.

 

[P F Tinmore]

monte, you said that you've been to Israel, unlike Tinmore, Challenger and Eloy who've never been there, and thusly don't know what they're talking about when it comes to Israel and Palestine. But I don't believe you've been there and think you are a liar. Otherwise, how can you compare Israel proper to South Africa and Rhodesia? Anyone who has actually been there knows that Arabs have equal rights in Israel proper. 25 countries in the world have a cross on their flag, 15 have a crescent, so 1 country in the world can have a Star of David. It doesn't mean Israel isn't democratic.

I've never been to Nazi Germany or Communist Russia, or Apartheid Souith Africa but the world knows an awfull lot about all those regimes, Zionist Israel is no different.

And you are going to prove your saying exactly HOW ???

Zionism (Hebrew: צִיּוֹנוּת‎ Tsiyyonut IPA: [t͡sijo̞ˈnut] after Zion) is the national movement of the Jewish people that supports the re-establishment of a Jewish homeland in the territory defined as the historic Land of Israel (roughly corresponding to Canaan, the Holy Land, or the Roman-named region Palestine)

----------

What does reestablishing one's sovereignty over one's ancient homeland have to do with Naziism, Communism or Apartheid, all of which invaded other people's land, instead of trying to re-establish
sovereignty over their ancient homelands.
None of them had any of their ancient land taken by invaders.
They were the invaders, be it the Germans, the Russians, the British or the Dutch.

Tough understanding something so simple.

How many of those Zionists went to reclaim their homes or farms that their ancestors lost back when?

That is because everybody ducks my questions. Israel could have only acquired land in two ways.

Illegally by force.

Legally by treaty.

Which one was it?

Legally by treaty. Duh.

Link?

 

[MJB12741]

Their country they get to decide who gets in. That's how it works.

Yes, unequally. The whole point of the thread.

Yes, they are surrounded by over 700 million Arab Muslims and they already have over two million, with limited space and resources. Plus, the countries they are coming from are extremely hostile to Israel and the Jews.

Yeah that's the price of claiming the most blood-soaked land on Earth as yours alone.

What is it with you that you wish to believe that the Israel, Judea and Samaria are the "most blood-soaked land on the earth" ?

How dare you forget what happened in Europe during WWII?
Or what happened in Armenia during WWI?
Or in Sudan?

And the Land of Israel IS and has always been, according to the Christians and Muslims themselves - a land which belongs to the Jewish People, where Jewish History was born.

The Land does belong to the Jews, you like it or not.

People have been slaughtering each other for millennia over religious nonsense in the "holy" land. So yes, the most blood-soaked land on the planet. I don't care who, of the 3 billion people that claim it, the land belongs to. I care that they've somehow roped the U.S. into their meaningless squabble.

Face it folks, Israel has the capability to annihilate the Palestinians but lack the desire. The Palestinians have the desire to annihilate Israel but lack the capability. And so it goes, like it or not.

 

[Shusha]

People have been slaughtering each other for millennia over religious nonsense in the "holy" land. So yes, the most blood-soaked land on the planet. I don't care who, of the 3 billion people that claim it, the land belongs to.

People have been slaughtering each other over identity and territory and ethnic belonging or othering all over the planet. I don't think there is much which is 'special' about the 'holy land'. The only thing that sets it apart is the usurption theology.

When the Japanese invaded Korea, as an example, they didn't attempt to claim they were the 'true' Koreans. They didn't try to absorb or claim Korean culture. The Americans of today don't try to claim they are the "true" indigenous peoples of the Americas.

 

[TheOldSchool]

People have been slaughtering each other for millennia over religious nonsense in the "holy" land. So yes, the most blood-soaked land on the planet. I don't care who, of the 3 billion people that claim it, the land belongs to.

People have been slaughtering each other over identity and territory and ethnic belonging or othering all over the planet. I don't think there is much which is 'special' about the 'holy land'. The only thing that sets it apart is the usurption theology.

When the Japanese invaded Korea, as an example, they didn't attempt to claim they were the 'true' Koreans. They didn't try to absorb or claim Korean culture. The Americans of today don't try to claim they are the "true" indigenous peoples of the Americas.

Have the Japanese and Koreans been slaughtering each other for thousands of years because magical beliefs call on them to? Are they currently occupying each other's territories because of some mystical claim they say they have? Is America roped into their nonsense for no discernable reason?

 

[Shusha]

Link?

Quit playing games and get out of the vortex. You know very well what I am going to say because I've said it a hundred times before. And then you run away and ignore it.

Jewish National Home. Its in all the treaties and legal documents of the time. And you can argue all you want that no one intended for the Jewish people to actually have sovereignty over their ancestral and historical homeland (because Jooooos!), but its all so much bullshit because, hey guess what, the entire international community accepted Israel's sovereignty by UN declaration and universal recognition.

The dispute is not about whether the Jewish people are entitled to the territory (they clearly are).

 

[P F Tinmore]

Link?

Quit playing games and get out of the vortex. You know very well what I am going to say because I've said it a hundred times before. And then you run away and ignore it.

Jewish National Home. Its in all the treaties and legal documents of the time. And you can argue all you want that no one intended for the Jewish people to actually have sovereignty over their ancestral and historical homeland (because Jooooos!), but its all so much bullshit because, hey guess what, the entire international community accepted Israel's sovereignty by UN declaration and universal recognition.

The dispute is not about whether the Jewish people are entitled to the territory (they clearly are).

I always get the same response to that question,

 

[Shusha]

Have the Japanese and Koreans been slaughtering each other for thousands of years because magical beliefs call on them to? Are they currently occupying each other's territories because of some mystical claim they say they have?

You are missing my point. No, they are not. You know why? Because the Japanese never got it in their heads that Korea and Korean culture is actually theirs. They did not try to usurp Korean historical and religious narratives and sites. They recognized themselves as invaders and so did the rest of the world. So when the Korean people liberated themselves from their invaders, the wrong was righted.

The equivalent in the context of the Arab/Israel debate is that there are no such thing as Koreans, that Koreans were all destroyed 2000 years ago. And that the true Koreans are the Japanese.

 

[Shusha]

Link?

Quit playing games and get out of the vortex. You know very well what I am going to say because I've said it a hundred times before. And then you run away and ignore it.

Jewish National Home. Its in all the treaties and legal documents of the time. And you can argue all you want that no one intended for the Jewish people to actually have sovereignty over their ancestral and historical homeland (because Jooooos!), but its all so much bullshit because, hey guess what, the entire international community accepted Israel's sovereignty by UN declaration and universal recognition.

The dispute is not about whether the Jewish people are entitled to the territory (they clearly are).

I always get the same response to that question,

And you always abandon the argument at this point. Because you can't address it.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Link?

Quit playing games and get out of the vortex. You know very well what I am going to say because I've said it a hundred times before. And then you run away and ignore it.

Jewish National Home. Its in all the treaties and legal documents of the time. And you can argue all you want that no one intended for the Jewish people to actually have sovereignty over their ancestral and historical homeland (because Jooooos!), but its all so much bullshit because, hey guess what, the entire international community accepted Israel's sovereignty by UN declaration and universal recognition.

The dispute is not about whether the Jewish people are entitled to the territory (they clearly are).

I always get the same response to that question,

And you always abandon the argument at this point. Because you can't address it.

The question must be answered before the discussion can proceed.

 

[TheOldSchool]

Have the Japanese and Koreans been slaughtering each other for thousands of years because magical beliefs call on them to? Are they currently occupying each other's territories because of some mystical claim they say they have?

You are missing my point. No, they are not. You know why? Because the Japanese never got it in their heads that Korea and Korean culture is actually theirs. They did not try to usurp Korean historical and religious narratives and sites. They recognized themselves as invaders and so did the rest of the world. So when the Korean people liberated themselves from their invaders, the wrong was righted.

The equivalent in the context of the Arab/Israel debate is that there are no such thing as Koreans, that Koreans were all destroyed 2000 years ago. And that the true Koreans are the Japanese.

The people living there before the UN created Israel were not "invaders."

You want to put it in context? Okay, suppose tomorrow the UN tells Alabama they're going to make it a Native American state ruled by Native Americans, and starts flying in millions of Native Americans. Then the Native Americans declare that only Native Americans can move there. Do the people of Alabama have a legitimate grievance?

We are now off topic, btw. For the record, I do not favor the Israeli side, nor the Palestinian side. I just want the U.S. out of the mess.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Have the Japanese and Koreans been slaughtering each other for thousands of years because magical beliefs call on them to? Are they currently occupying each other's territories because of some mystical claim they say they have?

You are missing my point. No, they are not. You know why? Because the Japanese never got it in their heads that Korea and Korean culture is actually theirs. They did not try to usurp Korean historical and religious narratives and sites. They recognized themselves as invaders and so did the rest of the world. So when the Korean people liberated themselves from their invaders, the wrong was righted.

The equivalent in the context of the Arab/Israel debate is that there are no such thing as Koreans, that Koreans were all destroyed 2000 years ago. And that the true Koreans are the Japanese.

The people living there before the UN created Israel were not "invaders."

You want to put it in context? Okay, suppose tomorrow the UN tells Alabama they're going to make it a Native American state ruled by Native Americans, and starts flying in millions of Native Americans. Then the Native Americans declare that only Native Americans can move there. Do the people of Alabama have a legitimate grievance?

We are now off topic, btw. For the record, I do not favor the Israeli side, nor the Palestinian side. I just want the U.S. out of the mess.

Fair enough. Trump is all about "America First", and he might end the peace talks before they start, if he figures out it's too complicated to proceed with them.