When is an embryo/fetus a human life?

[Chuz Life]

I'd say it has more to do with mismanaged intelligence. Like you said, it's also educational.

Liberals make the emotional argument. But emotions tell you what you believe, not what is true.

I think what is more likely at fault here is that lack of education and mental illness run rampant through our society.

I think it may have something to do with the micro-plastics.

A large segment of our society has devolved into becoming self-destructive of its own survival.

I'd say it has more to do with mismanaged intelligence. Like you said, it's also educational.

Liberals make the emotional argument. But emotions tell you what you believe, not what is true.

The dumbfuckery is too real and present for there not to be a cause-and-effect relationship.

I seriously hope someone is looking into it, but I will be long gone before it is ever identified and remedied.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Well, they could be made "citizens" if the people through their government wanted them to be citizens.

Legally, corporations are recognized as "legal persons" even though corporations are neither "human" nor "alive."

But that's besides the point that neither a human sperm CELL or an Oocyte CELL is a human being in the sense that any other human being (human ORGANISM) IS.

The current legal definition for what a "natural person" is "a human being."

Un-united sperm CELLS and Egg CELLS are not human "organisms." They are not "human organisms" and they are not "human beings." They are only the reproductive "cells" of a human being.

Un-united human Sperm and egg cells have only the potential to unite and form (become) human organisms (beings / natural persons.)

Conception (NOT PARTURITION) is when that "potential to begin a new human being's life is finally realized.

At CONCEPTION (not parturition) is when the short "life" of a sperm and egg cell are ended, and the life of the new human organism they merged to create, is began.

Facts.

Biological Facts.

Let me make a slightly different argument. Every cell in our body (save viruses and the bacteria in our gut microbiome) contains human DNA. I will go so far as to say that if it contains human DNA, it is human. We are intelligent enough to recognize what happens when a sperm and an egg unite; what they will lead to if the natural process is allowed to occur. Therefore, anytime that process is interrupted, the potential for life is ended. I see that as a form of killing; if you know what it will become, then you know that by stopping it, you are ending a potential life.

The nuances are many. It gives me a headache thinking about it.

 

[Chuz Life]

Let me make a slightly different argument. Every cell in our body (save viruses and the bacteria in our gut microbiome) contains human DNA. I will go so far as to say that if it contains human DNA, it is human. We are intelligent enough to recognize what happens when a sperm and an egg unite; what they will lead to if the natural process is allowed to occur. Therefore, anytime that process is interrupted, the potential for life is ended. I see that as a form of killing; if you know what it will become, then you know that by stopping it, you are ending a potential life.

The nuances are many. It gives me a headache thinking about it.

I can only add (suggest) that preventing conception is (as you said) ending a potential life.

Because cells are not organisms.

An abortion (post conception) kills an actual human life (an existing human organism.)

Agree?

 

[TemplarKormac]

Because cells are not organisms.

What about single-celled organisms?

 

[Chuz Life]

What about single-celled organisms?

I might need more info, to know what you are asking.

A sperm cell is only a haploid cell. As is an Oocyte.

The zygote (of any species) that is formed by the union of a sperm and egg cell, on the other hand, is an organism. Even as it is only one cell in size.

Does this help?

 

[Leo123]

I might need more info, to know what you are asking.

A sperm cell is only a haploid cell. As is an Oocyte.

The zygote (of any species) that is formed by the union of a sperm and egg cell, on the other hand, is an organism. Even as it is only one cell in size.

Does this help?

All functioning cells are life. Each has a life path.

 

[Chuz Life]

All functioning cells are life. Each has a life path.

True, in a biological sense, I suppose.

What is the conclusion you are drawing from that?

 

[TemplarKormac]

I might need more info, to know what you are asking.

I was engaging with Grok 4 on the subject, here is what it said:

"Biological cells, including specialized ones like mature red blood cells, exhibit key hallmarks of life such as metabolism, homeostasis, and environmental responsiveness. For instance, red blood cells actively transport gases, maintain ion balances, and produce ATP through glycolysis, despite lacking a nucleus. This aligns with cell theory and scientific consensus, distinguishing them from non-living remnants like dead skin cells or acellular entities like viruses.

In multicellular organisms, cells specialize for efficiency, prioritizing systemic function over independent reproduction—a trait shared by neurons and muscle cells, which are unquestionably alive. Dismissing such cells as non-living overlooks their integral role in sustaining life and could hinder advancements in fields like medicine and evolution."

 

[Chuz Life]

I was engaging with Grok 4 on the subject, here is what it said:

"Biological cells, including specialized ones like mature red blood cells, exhibit key hallmarks of life such as metabolism, homeostasis, and environmental responsiveness. For instance, red blood cells actively transport gases, maintain ion balances, and produce ATP through glycolysis, despite lacking a nucleus. This aligns with cell theory and scientific consensus, distinguishing them from non-living remnants like dead skin cells or acellular entities like viruses.

In multicellular organisms, cells specialize for efficiency, prioritizing systemic function over independent reproduction—a trait shared by neurons and muscle cells, which are unquestionably alive. Dismissing such cells as non-living overlooks their integral role in sustaining life and could hinder advancements in fields like medicine and evolution."

Pretty much common sense and knowledge but I'm still not clear on what you are concluding from that.

Unless you are trying to make the case that killing any living cell is tantamount to murder or homicide?

 

[TemplarKormac]

Unless you are trying to make the case that killing any living cell is tantamount to murder or homicide?

No. I limit that to human life. And only to cells which are capable of carrying out the process of conception.

 

[Chuz Life]

No. I limit that to human life. And only to cells which are capable of carrying out the process of conception.

Ok, please expound.

How is the killing of a cell (un-united sperm or egg cell) the same thing as killing the actual organism they MIGHT have actually formed, if they weren't killed and MIGHT have been allowed to unite and form?

 

[whutTHEYsay]

4. We all have a right to speak and to petition our government for a redress of our grievances.

What is your grievance against a woman who terminates her own pregnancy ?

there is no way her doing that harms you or society, which means you have no justification to interfere with another American’s right to pursue happiness, to pursue life, to pursue liberty when she does not interfere with yours.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

When a human life is taken

When the killer and the victim are separate individuals we all intervene through our state and federal justice system to take a killer’s liberty away for such a crime. Not one woman who terminates her own pregnancy is no threat to you if she is not arrested tried convicted and incarcerated for killing that which is in her own body.

So Why does it become your duty or business to intervene on behalf of the reproductive function taking place within another persons body in private?

 

[Chuz Life]

What is your grievance against a woman who terminates her own pregnancy ?

there is no way her doing that harms you or society, which means you have no justification to interfere with another American’s right to pursue happiness, to pursue life, to pursue liberty when she does not interfere with yours.

My grievance is not with the woman. My grievance is with the law or laws that fail to provide the woman's child the equal protection of our laws.

 

[Midnight FM]

Even if the most intellectually basic animal can recognize their own species in the womb, then it stands to reason we do too. The problem is that with homo sapiens, we are so intelligent that we can say or do things that manipulate the thoughts or actions of others. Namely, this idea that what's in the womb of a woman is not human, even though it shares human DNA.

Skin cells have human DNA. They aren't a "human being".

If we look at science, I would argue that an entity without a brain or consciousness isn't a "human being".

 

[Midnight FM]

.A large segment of our society has devolved into becoming self-destructive of its own survival.

We don't need a large population in order to "survive". People in better socioeconomic circumstances who have fewer children "survive" just fine, regardless of how many children people in poorer socioeconomic circumstances have.

For most of human history, people lived as hunter-gatherers, and their populations were much smaller than they became after the advent of civilization, and they "survived" just fine for thousands of years.

 

[Chuz Life]

Skin cells have human DNA. They aren't a "human being".

If we look at science, I would argue that an entity without a brain or consciousness isn't a "human being".

Anencephaly

Anencephaly is a birth defect in which a baby is born without parts of the brain and skull.

www.cdc.gov

Florida Court rules against parents in Baby Theresa case - UPI Archives

The Florida Supreme Court said Thursday that organs may not be taken for transplant from infants born without fully developed brains as long as the infants...

www.upi.com

https://x.com/i/grok/share/A8LHtY8rEduouJ8gM0TJFlrle

 

[whutTHEYsay]

My grievance is not with the woman. My grievance is with the law or laws that fail to provide the woman's child the equal protection of our laws.

You have to have a reason to restrict a woman’s liberty involving harm to you and potential harm to society in general if her liberty is not taken from her for willfully terminating her own pregnancy

You cant make a case and if you put it to a simple majority vote the only state that possibly would ban the medical procedure of abortion would be Arkansas

 

[TemplarKormac]

Ok, please expound.

How is the killing of a cell (un-united sperm or egg cell) the same thing as killing the actual organism they MIGHT have actually formed, if they weren't killed and MIGHT have been allowed to unite and form?

Cause and effect.

For example. There are materials to build a fire. If you take away the critical components to build it, there will be no fire.

If you clip a bird's wings, it will die in the wild.

If you have all the components for conception (sperm, egg, etc.), and you sterilize the egg, there will be no life; if you sterilize the sperm, there is no life. Destroying critical components for life is tantamount to taking life.

We have the technology to ensure that conception takes place correctly, so given that, destroying the critical components is tantamount to taking a life...

 

[Midnight FM]

Cause and effect.

For example. There are materials to build a fire. If you take away the critical components to build it, there will be no fire.

If you clip a bird's wings, it will die in the wild.

If you have all the components for conception (sperm, egg, etc.), and you sterilize the egg, there will be no life; if you sterilize the sperm, there is no life. Destroying critical components for life is tantamount to taking life.

No it isn't. It's simply preventing a potential life from coming into existence (which is often a good thing), not taking a life which actually exists.