Abortion Trends Before and After Dobbs

[JoeB131]

And they said Roe would never be overturned.

Until it was.

Well, we didn't think there would be enough stupid people on the court to do that.

So, um, we underestimated human stupidity?

Okay, serious answer time. I freely admit, that Roe wasn't a good decision. It found a "right to privacy" that isn't clearly written into the 14th Amendment (unlike birthright citizenship, which is), without clearly defining when life begins.

Both of these things should have been done by the Legislative branch. Shame on the Democrats for all the times they controlled Congress and didn't codify Roe.

The problem was that the Court at that time probably didn't think it was doing anything that controversial. By 1972, abortion laws had become largely meaningless. Doctors were performing abortions in OB/GYN offices and writing down something else on the chart.

Again, I keep making the comparison to Prohibition. Somehow, that got into the Constitution in the form of the 18th Amendment and was enforced through the Volstead Act. So problem, solved, right. We showed our moral indignation with drinking and put an end to it!

Except, not really. People found ways to break the law. Enforcement was lax because the police had better things to do.

Same problem with Dobbs, you have laws in some states, people are just finding ways to get around them.

 

[JoeB131]

Do explain how overturning Roe increased pregnancies and or the demand for abortions.

Or, admit that coincidence is not proof of causation.

Overturning row was supposed to reduce the demand for abortions, according to you zealots.
Overturning Roe has the opposite effect.

I can tell you exactly how Roe increased the demand for abortion.

The zealots used Dobbs to strangle Planned Parenthood and other providers in underserved neighborhoods. PP and their ilk were the ones providing contraception and other forms of reproductive health to prevent unwanted pregnancies.

More unwanted pregnancies, more abortions.

 

[pknopp]

Well, we didn't think there would be enough stupid people on the court to do that.

So, um, we underestimated human stupidity?

Okay, serious answer time. I freely admit, that Roe wasn't a good decision. It found a "right to privacy" that isn't clearly written into the 14th Amendment (unlike birthright citizenship, which is), without clearly defining when life begins.

But they did define when society should step in. Viability. That time had rolled back since 1973 and a valid argument could be made for benefit of the doubt at 16 weeks.

But now we have expanded abortion access.

Both of these things should have been done by the Legislative branch. Shame on the Democrats for all the times they controlled Congress and didn't codify Roe.

The problem was that the Court at that time probably didn't think it was doing anything that controversial. By 1972, abortion laws had become largely meaningless. Doctors were performing abortions in OB/GYN offices and writing down something else on the chart.

Again, I keep making the comparison to Prohibition. Somehow, that got into the Constitution in the form of the 18th Amendment and was enforced through the Volstead Act. So problem, solved, right. We showed our moral indignation with drinking and put an end to it!

Except, not really. People found ways to break the law. Enforcement was lax because the police had better things to do.

Same problem with Dobbs, you have laws in some states, people are just finding ways to get around them.

Women figured at how easy it is to call 1-800 and the pills arrive at your door. It really isn't all that expensive to drive to another state when it's too late for that.

 

[JoeB131]

But they did define when society should step in. Viability. That time had rolled back since 1973 and a valid argument could be made for benefit of the doubt at 16 weeks.

But now we have expanded abortion access.

Everyone forgets that the viability standard in Roe was immediately nullified by the ruling Doe v. Bolton, which allowed for post-viability abortions if the "woman's health" was impacted, but "Woman's health" was so poorly defined it could mean, "I'm going to be depressed if this pregnancy continues".

Of course, no one gets a third trimester abortion unless something has gone seriously sideways with the pregnancy. Not necessarily because of the woman's health, but because we've found more ways to identify defective fetuses.

Women figured at how easy it is to call 1-800 and the pills arrive at your door. It really isn't all that expensive to drive to another state when it's too late for that.

That's awesome if you have the means like a credit card and a fixed address.

PP was serving the population that didn't have those things. So they didn't have the means to get their pills, but they do find the means to have an abortion, even if it means driving to another state.

 

[Mac1958]

Imagine the impact if we properly directed our energy at the actual solution to the abortion problem.

You mean both ends of the argument working together to sigificantly reduce demand for abortions? And maybe even jointly coming up with a way to effectively streamline adoptions and to come up with all-new ideas together? New, constructive approaches so that everyone has positive skin in the game?

As if they were sincere, intelligent adults not bound and limited by rigid ideologies?

I think you've been drinking.

 

[pknopp]

Everyone forgets that the viability standard in Roe was immediately nullified by the ruling Doe v. Bolton, which allowed for post-viability abortions if the "woman's health" was impacted, but "Woman's health" was so poorly defined it could mean, "I'm going to be depressed if this pregnancy continues".

No, they ruled that if a law had a "health" exemption that meant health could mean just about anything. They did not rule that was the law. They ruled If a law had that wording it would mean any old reason which is why laws with that wording never passed.

The Supreme Court allowed the Intact Dilation and Extraction ban to stand as there was no "health" exemption.

It was the reason why the Hyde Amendment always passed.

Of course, no one gets a third trimester abortion unless something has gone seriously sideways with the pregnancy. Not necessarily because of the woman's health, but because we've found more ways to identify defective fetuses.

Dr Martin Haskell was asked why women got late term abortions (the originator of the I.D&E method). He said the main reason was the age of the female. That is, a teen girl hid her pregnancy until late.

That's awesome if you have the means like a credit card and a fixed address.

PP was serving the population that didn't have those things. So they didn't have the means to get their pills, but they do find the means to have an abortion, even if it means driving to another state.

I support PP contraceptive services.

 

[Chuz Life]

What is a thinking person to conclude from the argument or claim that these poor minority people over here are smart enough and able to find a way to get abortions, even if abortions are banned. . . But they are just too ******* ignorant and don't have a ******* clue on how to get contraceptives or prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place?

I'm not buying the bullshit.

 

[JoeB131]

No, they ruled that if a law had a "health" exemption that meant health could mean just about anything. They did not rule that was the law. They ruled If a law had that wording it would mean any old reason which is why laws with that wording never passed.

Except that's the end result, you can get an abortion if a doctor rules there is a health exemption. The trick is that medical records are covered by HIPAA, so no one can call bullshit.

The Supreme Court allowed the Intact Dilation and Extraction ban to stand as there was no "health" exemption.

Which goes back to my point. The doctor will always find a health exemption.

It was the reason why the Hyde Amendment always passed.

The Hyde Amendment only prevented Federal funds for being used for abortions.

Dr Martin Haskell was asked why women got late term abortions (the originator of the I.D&E method). He said the main reason was the age of the female. That is, a teen girl hid her pregnancy until late.

I don't think a teen girl can hide a pregnancy until the third trimester.

What is a thinking person to conclude from the argument or claim that these poor minority people over here are smart enough and able to find a way to get abortions, even if abortions are banned. . . But they are just too ******* ignorant and don't have a ******* clue on how to get contraceptives or prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place?

I'm not buying the bullshit.

Human nature. People don't seek out doctors until something becomes an emergency.

I ignored my acid reflux issues for years, until they got too serious and I finally got the endoscopy done I should have done the year before.

So, yes, if you are poor and you don't have health insurance and some religious fanatics caused the PP in your inner city to shut down, you aren't making an effort to get birth control (especially if you had no plans for sex that week, but then had it on the spur of the moment.)

But once you have an unplanned pregnancy, this stuff just got real.