What are those evangelical Christians really up to?

[dmp]

The problem with the three major religions, ie Christianity, Judaism and Islam is that they are all militant and bring nothing but heartache and grief to the world with all their killings and torturings.

I fear you suffer from Impenetrable Ignorance. That comment HAS to be in the top 5 'worst, most uneducated, bigoted, un-founded' comments I've read on this board.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

I was exploring the website I pulled the quote from some more. It's a hebraic roots christian organization. They are truly christian. Orthodox jews really have a dislike for organizations like this, because they feel they target jews for conversion, and they do. The thing is, we have free speech and a free press and freedom of religion. SO these groups should be allowed to do what they want.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

I was exploring the website I pulled the quote from some more. It's a hebraic roots christian organization. They are truly christian. Orthodox jews really have a dislike for organizations like this, because they feel they target jews for conversion, and they do. The thing is, we have free speech and a free press and freedom of religion. SO these groups should be allowed to do what they want.

Freedom of speech, press, and religion so long as they don't infringe on other's rights to freedom.

 

[OCA]

I was exploring the website I pulled the quote from some more. It's a hebraic roots christian organization. They are truly christian. Orthodox jews really have a dislike for organizations like this, because they feel they target jews for conversion, and they do. The thing is, we have free speech and a free press and freedom of religion. SO these groups should be allowed to do what they want.

In America rthese groups are allowed to practice as they want, what the **** is your point?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Freedom of speech, press, and religion so long as they don't infringe on other's rights to freedom.

No kidding. WHere have I ever indicate I believe otherwise. Religious freedom does not mean "everyone has to change their religion so jews feel good about it".

 

[Eightball]

This "clay vessels" stuff is gnosticism/noahidism. Just so you all know.

Beg to differ, but Paul who used that metaphor to make a point in his epistle was not a gnostic, and in fact spoke strongly against that movement that was creeping into the early Christian church.

I've done a little investigation of your Noahidism stuff, and it is a cultic, conspiratorial, stuff, that belongs with George Norrey, and Art Bell......type of show-time entertainment.
*
Throughout the ages there have been many folks that have had a little taste of the truth, and then went "bonkers" chasing an exciting, "lead" as though it would all open up and reveal a "them" versus "us" movement, only revealed to the enlightened.

It's the enlightened that have often been the ones that have told the rest of us to "follow me!", I've found the real truth, only to be led down the path of tragedy......ala Jim Jones......Davidians.....Moonies.......Scientology....Unity.... movements......rtwngAvngr....I fear and shudder that you are following a similar direction.

They take a little bit of Judaism, a smidge of Christianity, a teaspoon of hinduism, a little Zorastorianism, and throw in some Rosicrusian stuff too, mix it with some rebellion, and Wa La, you have the "Real Truth", while the rest of us bible thumping, fundies are mislead, single minded, and not "enlightened" as you.....what is it now......Noahidism.....?


.......
God doesn't hide Himself from his creation, so that His creation has to play an exotic game of "Clue" to find out the real truth about Him. That's where you and so many conspiratorial folks want/desire for your creator to be; a hidden, creator that only is revealed to a select few that have the smarts and intellectual pride that the rest of us lack. This is what gives rise to the Da Vinci Code, and so many other anti-Christian delusions. The desire to find the truth, while totally stumbling over the Foundation Block, Jesus Christ.

All along, you're self-deluded by your intellectual pride. The very blinding scales that you think that are on all of us poor Fundies, is the very snare that has you gripped in this delusion of "the real truth".
........

Metaphors about a leaky vessel are absolutely, right from Jesus's teaching, with the Apostle Paul's creative touch added. Throughout the ages, clay was a reference to our humanity being created from the dust.......as Adam was.......dust being clay......Clay vessels meant weak, God-dependent humanity, constantly needing refilling, re-encouraging, re-strengthening from God......as the strength from God possessed by humanity was something that needed a metaphorically speaking, refilling.......

In other words, man needed to stay connected with his creator in order to continue to be replenished, refreshed, and strengthened to continue in his walk of faith.
.....
rtwngAvngr: I've hesitated to say anything about your philosophical/religious comments that I've perused in the past, but when you came up with that Noahid connection with the Apostle Paul's writings, I had to make a comment.

You've got a lot going for you upstairs......I can tell that your a very intelligent person, but I think that you also may want to rethink your obsession with the Noahide thing. After reviewing many websites dedicated to the Noahide topic.....I find it to be very inviting for the conspiratorial minded........

The pitfall of the highly intellectual has often been via the conspiratorial/religious/break-through enlightenment theme, repeated over and over throughout the centuries.

Man not being satisfied with biblical explanations has looked elsewhere, hoping for that elusive Genie, that would add exclusivity a system of belief.

Again, the stumbling block of man is actually the very foundation block.....Jesus Christ. The simplicity of God's message through Christ is too much for many to accept. It tests the sensibilities of those that will not be at peace with anything, but conjecture upon conjecture.

rtwngAvngr: Me thinks that your are obsessed, but I fear that you will take that as an insult......I don't mean it that way. All of us folks have obsessions.......for some it's biting finger nails, others, it's soap operas, sports, money, sex..........but for some......it's conspiratorial things........

Even as a bible Christian, I have my fears and worries and obsessions.........it's a life long battle........

Above all, I want my eyes to not be clouded with misconceptions, misunderstandings, at all. I'm not hoping that the bible is correct, and the Christian message revealed within it's pages is correct, but am confounded by it's simplicity, that reveals an infinitly deep Creator and creative mind.

I'm perplexed by the co-hesiveness of both Old Testament and New Testament Scripture even though thousands of years separates some of these books from others. I'm amazed at the full-filled prophecies that seem to be numbered in the hundreds.........

rtwngAvngr: Why would God want to make Himself elusive and only plain to a few..........such as yourself? Why would you, have the Noahide answer while the rest of us simplistic bible believers are given doomed to stumble along?

I will agree that conspiracies in religion are common place, and well-founded.

Again.....as mentioned earlier.......God is not hidden from some and revealed to others. It's humanity that closes or opens the door of realization of God's existence.

The bible wouldn't have weathered these last few thousand years of near perfect re-translation, as validated by the Dead Sea Scrolls, if there wasn't an omnipotent power/mind watching over it.

Romans Chapter 1 flatly communicates that people will look here and there for God, and totally overlook his obvious presence. Why? Because they want God to be something different that what He really is as revealed in preserved scripture, and creation itself. Romans chapter 1 flatly says that man will bring on his own spiritual blindness by ignoring the obvious, looking for the alleged, "truth" under stones, rocks, ///////and throw in conspiratorial legends, movements......etc.

God is simple to find, if the seeker drops all pre-conditions of what they want Him/God to be.......and will accept, the reality of who He is, and the evidences of his existence/reality.

 

[Nienna]

Would LOVE to rep you 8Ball, but I can't...

Focusing on conspiracies can DISTRACT a person from the RELATIONSHIP God wants to have with each one of us, so a person can "know the truth" yet never be saved.

 

[dmp]

Would LOVE to rep you 8Ball, but I can't...

Took care of that for ya.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Beg to differ, but Paul who used that metaphor to make a point in his epistle was not a gnostic, and in fact spoke strongly against that movement that was creeping into the early Christian church.

I've done a little investigation of your Noahidism stuff, and it is a cultic, conspiratorial, stuff, that belongs with George Norrey, and Art Bell......type of show-time entertainment.
*
Throughout the ages there have been many folks that have had a little taste of the truth, and then went "bonkers" chasing an exciting, "lead" as though it would all open up and reveal a "them" versus "us" movement, only revealed to the enlightened.

It's the enlightened that have often been the ones that have told the rest of us to "follow me!", I've found the real truth, only to be led down the path of tragedy......ala Jim Jones......Davidians.....Moonies.......Scientology....Unity.... movements......rtwngAvngr....I fear and shudder that you are following a similar direction.

They take a little bit of Judaism, a smidge of Christianity, a teaspoon of hinduism, a little Zorastorianism, and throw in some Rosicrusian stuff too, mix it with some rebellion, and Wa La, you have the "Real Truth", while the rest of us bible thumping, fundies are mislead, single minded, and not "enlightened" as you.....what is it now......Noahidism.....?


.......
God doesn't hide Himself from his creation, so that His creation has to play an exotic game of "Clue" to find out the real truth about Him. That's where you and so many conspiratorial folks want/desire for your creator to be; a hidden, creator that only is revealed to a select few that have the smarts and intellectual pride that the rest of us lack. This is what gives rise to the Da Vinci Code, and so many other anti-Christian delusions. The desire to find the truth, while totally stumbling over the Foundation Block, Jesus Christ.

All along, you're self-deluded by your intellectual pride. The very blinding scales that you think that are on all of us poor Fundies, is the very snare that has you gripped in this delusion of "the real truth".
........

Metaphors about a leaky vessel are absolutely, right from Jesus's teaching, with the Apostle Paul's creative touch added. Throughout the ages, clay was a reference to our humanity being created from the dust.......as Adam was.......dust being clay......Clay vessels meant weak, God-dependent humanity, constantly needing refilling, re-encouraging, re-strengthening from God......as the strength from God possessed by humanity was something that needed a metaphorically speaking, refilling.......

In other words, man needed to stay connected with his creator in order to continue to be replenished, refreshed, and strengthened to continue in his walk of faith.
.....
rtwngAvngr: I've hesitated to say anything about your philosophical/religious comments that I've perused in the past, but when you came up with that Noahid connection with the Apostle Paul's writings, I had to make a comment.

You've got a lot going for you upstairs......I can tell that your a very intelligent person, but I think that you also may want to rethink your obsession with the Noahide thing. After reviewing many websites dedicated to the Noahide topic.....I find it to be very inviting for the conspiratorial minded........

The pitfall of the highly intellectual has often been via the conspiratorial/religious/break-through enlightenment theme, repeated over and over throughout the centuries.

Man not being satisfied with biblical explanations has looked elsewhere, hoping for that elusive Genie, that would add exclusivity a system of belief.

Again, the stumbling block of man is actually the very foundation block.....Jesus Christ. The simplicity of God's message through Christ is too much for many to accept. It tests the sensibilities of those that will not be at peace with anything, but conjecture upon conjecture.

rtwngAvngr: Me thinks that your are obsessed, but I fear that you will take that as an insult......I don't mean it that way. All of us folks have obsessions.......for some it's biting finger nails, others, it's soap operas, sports, money, sex..........but for some......it's conspiratorial things........

Even as a bible Christian, I have my fears and worries and obsessions.........it's a life long battle........

Above all, I want my eyes to not be clouded with misconceptions, misunderstandings, at all. I'm not hoping that the bible is correct, and the Christian message revealed within it's pages is correct, but am confounded by it's simplicity, that reveals an infinitly deep Creator and creative mind.

I'm perplexed by the co-hesiveness of both Old Testament and New Testament Scripture even though thousands of years separates some of these books from others. I'm amazed at the full-filled prophecies that seem to be numbered in the hundreds.........

rtwngAvngr: Why would God want to make Himself elusive and only plain to a few..........such as yourself? Why would you, have the Noahide answer while the rest of us simplistic bible believers are given doomed to stumble along?

I will agree that conspiracies in religion are common place, and well-founded.

Again.....as mentioned earlier.......God is not hidden from some and revealed to others. It's humanity that closes or opens the door of realization of God's existence.

The bible wouldn't have weathered these last few thousand years of near perfect re-translation, as validated by the Dead Sea Scrolls, if there wasn't an omnipotent power/mind watching over it.

Romans Chapter 1 flatly communicates that people will look here and there for God, and totally overlook his obvious presence. Why? Because they want God to be something different that what He really is as revealed in preserved scripture, and creation itself. Romans chapter 1 flatly says that man will bring on his own spiritual blindness by ignoring the obvious, looking for the alleged, "truth" under stones, rocks, ///////and throw in conspiratorial legends, movements......etc.

God is simple to find, if the seeker drops all pre-conditions of what they want Him/God to be.......and will accept, the reality of who He is, and the evidences of his existence/reality.

Yet jars of clay is in the talmud. The Noahide Laws are from the talmud, which observant jews value more than the old testament. This is really the stumbling block for christians.

Noahidism is a growing movement all around the nation. The Chabad Lubavitch segment of Judaism fully believe it.

According to the Oral Tradition, or the talmud, The seven laws were given to noah to give to all mankind. According to the Noahide view, ALL humans are noahides and bound to the laws. Like it or not.

Here's a link to a noahide forum where you can peruse the truth of what I'm saying at youre leisure.

http://forums.torah.org/viewforum.php?f=6

 

[dmp]

Yet jars of clay is in the talmud. The Noahide Laws are from the talmud, which observant jews value more than the old testament. This is really the stumbling block for christians.

Noahidism is a growing movement all around the nation. The Chabad Lubavitch segment of Judaism fully believe it.

According to the Oral Tradition, or the talmud, The seven laws were given to noah to give to all mankind. According to the Noahide view, ALL humans are noahides and bound to the laws. Like it or not.

Here's a link to a noahide forum where you can peruse the truth of what I'm saying at youre leisure.

http://forums.torah.org/viewforum.php?f=6

Is it really that much EASIER for you to believe lies and conspiracy that the absolute God-inspired 'truth' of what Eightball wrote?

 

[Abbey Normal]

...
Above all, I want my eyes to not be clouded with misconceptions, misunderstandings, at all. I'm not hoping that the bible is correct, and the Christian message revealed within it's pages is correct, but am confounded by it's simplicity, that reveals an infinitly deep Creator and creative mind.
...
Romans Chapter 1 flatly communicates that people will look here and there for God, and totally overlook his obvious presence. Why? Because they want God to be something different that what He really is as revealed in preserved scripture, and creation itself. Romans chapter 1 flatly says that man will bring on his own spiritual blindness by ignoring the obvious, looking for the alleged, "truth" under stones, rocks, ///////and throw in conspiratorial legends, movements......etc.
...

I believe it is important to pray regularly for discernment, as it is too easy to be misled.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Is it really that much EASIER for you to believe lies and conspiracy that the absolute God-inspired 'truth' of what Eightball wrote?

What lie do I believe?

Just tell me.

 

[Nienna]

Took care of that for ya.

I had a feeling you would!

 

[Nienna]

Yet jars of clay is in the talmud. The Noahide Laws are from the talmud, which observant jews value more than the old testament. This is really the stumbling block for christians.

What is the stumbling block, J? That there are common elements in the books? Or that Jews value the talmud more than the OT?

And why would it be a stumbling block for Christians? Christians don't follow the Talmud.

Noahidism is a growing movement all around the nation. The Chabad Lubavitch segment of Judaism fully believe it.

According to the Oral Tradition, or the talmud, The seven laws were given to noah to give to all mankind. According to the Noahide view, ALL humans are noahides and bound to the laws. Like it or not.

I guess I'm just having a hard time understanding why you are so very caught up in this. It seems like more than just something "interesting" to be concerned about to you.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

What lie do I believe?

Just tell me.

I think something similar to what you're saying is actually in the New Testament. Having trouble finding it right now--but I know it's there because I've read it before. -Nevermind, I found it in Acts- When the disciples are discussing whether or not gentiles have to convert to Judaism before they can become Christian, they decide that gentiles do not have to follow Jewish Laws--including the ten commandments--with four exceptions:

Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, [and said], Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Act 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

Act 15:3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.

Act 15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and [of] the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command [them] to keep the law of Moses.

Act 15:6 ¶ And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men [and] brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as [he did] unto us;

Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Act 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

Act 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men [and] brethren, hearken unto me:

Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.

I'm guilty of fornicating and the blood thing--I like my steaks pretty rare. Other than that I'm a good gentile. :bj2:

 

[Eightball]

Hagbard Celine: Excellent choice of scripture with your point.

Seems that word, "grace" really throws folks for a loop, even nowadays. There's this thing in us humans that makes us want to have some responsibility or credit for the good gifts that have been freely given to us.

"Unmerited Favor = Grace"

Our only involvement in this wonderful bestowment is our willing, "wills" to submit to and accept that we are weak and miniscule in the presence of our Creator.

I've yet to find the verse, "God helps those that help themselves.". We do need to cooperate, but often this quote is the "doer Christian's" mantra. It also often means that the Christian who lives by this motto, also doesn't wait on or surrender to, or ask for intervention from God before going, "head long, and head strong" into evangelism and other "brownie point" earning actions to get an "ata-boy" or "ata-girl" from God and their fellow Christian peers.

Relinquishing external and internal control:
This soulic position allows us to be fillable vessels, yet still leaky, and in need of refilling constantly at the altar of God through Christ our intermediator(prayer/submission/surrender).

I still find my most intriguing "read" is Romans of the N.T.. Paul really gets down to the nitty gritty of what it means to be a Christian. He systematically explains our new life in Christ, as a function of our total immersion into the crucified, ressurrected, and glorified life of Jesus. Our Old Man or Adamic life is left at the cross, and now we have this new life.

One small battle, yet it seems big.....we still have a very unredeemed body of flesh that still works against the very new nature that was given to us at our conversion. Paul goes into some very good first-hand detail in Romans chapter 7, as he referrs to himself as "Oh wretched man that I am....."......Yes the flesh is still a harbinger and propagator of sin if it ain't kept in restraint through constant reckoning of the truth of who we now are in Christ. Our inner man is safe, our outer man(flesh) is a battle ground.

How is it that we can yet be seated in the heavenlies yet still be physically on earth? Simple.......Christ's life seated at God's right hand in heaven is also the indwelling life(Holy Spirit/Comforter) that is in us as a gift, and pledge from God that we will not walk alone here on planet earth, even before we go to heaven.
*
Wonderful book by a Multnomah Bible College, Portland, Ore., Professor by the name of David C. Needham. Title.. "Birthright: Christian, Do You Know Who You Are?".
*
Hagbard Celine: Again, an excellent choice of scripture(Acts) in your response.

 

[Nienna]

I think something similar to what you're saying is actually in the New Testament. Having trouble finding it right now--but I know it's there because I've read it before. -Nevermind, I found it in Acts- When the disciples are discussing whether or not gentiles have to convert to Judaism before they can become Christian, they decide that gentiles do not have to follow Jewish Laws--including the ten commandments--with four exceptions:

Good scripture reference, HC. It shows that it is not necessary for gentiles to convert to Judaism before they will be accepted by the Jewish Messiah. They just need to accept Christ, and that's all.

However, what I think RWA is concerned about is that certain sects of Jews want Christians to renounce Christianity all together as well as go backward in accepting the rule of the Law.

Do I have that right, RWA?

 

[Eightball]

Good scripture reference, HC. It shows that it is not necessary for gentiles to convert to Judaism before they will be accepted by the Jewish Messiah. They just need to accept Christ, and that's all.

However, what I think RWA is concerned about is that certain sects of Jews want Christians to renounce Christianity all together as well as go backward in accepting the rule of the Law.

Do I have that right, RWA?

About the closest I can find in the N.T. to this is when the Galatians were be coerced by some Jews to be circumcized and Paul was really giving them "what to" about drifting from "grace" back into "works" or legalism.

To adopt Jewish, Talmud/O.T. customs on the part of gentiles is a non-issue, if salvation is by grace through faith, then it's God's work, not ours.

Only thing is that I guess we are talking about a person relinquishing Christianity for Judaism. That's a new one.

I do adhere to the "once truly saved" you can't become unsaved. Notice that I put in "truly" in the disclaimer?

There are those that will say, "Lord, Lord!" yet will not be identified or found in the Lamb's book of life. That's pretty scarey. That should make all folks shudder, with the seriousness of their live's futures.

I know that there have been Christians that have been duped into joining organizations, fraternal groups, clubs, Christian, and non-Christian cults, etc, that really have unchristian values at their cores, but did it in total ignorance. Ignorance, as in not filling their new lives with God's scriptures, as a guide in their life's journeys. Romans chapter 12 emphatically tells all believers to renew their minds with scripture. The Berean believers were so ever-watchful of this, that whenever a person came to preach a "gospel" to them, Paul said they would immediately go to their scripture to make sure that this alleged messenger was not leading them away into a different gospel, not brought by God.

Anyway, to say that we must return to the Jewish religion, is an "anathem". Actually Paul said that all believers are circumcized with a circumcision in the heart, but not external. In other words, we are branded from within; bought with a price, and sealed, in the transaction. External stuff doesn't make us more spiritual, or more saved, or gain salvation.

 

[Nienna]

About the closest I can find in the N.T. to this is when the Galatians were be coerced by some Jews to be circumcized and Paul was really giving them "what to" about drifting from "grace" back into "works" or legalism.

To adopt Jewish, Talmud/O.T. customs on the part of gentiles is a non-issue, if salvation is by grace through faith, then it's God's work, not ours.

Only thing is that I guess we are talking about a person relinquishing Christianity for Judaism. That's a new one.

I do adhere to the "once truly saved" you can't become unsaved. Notice that I put in "truly" in the disclaimer?

There are those that will say, "Lord, Lord!" yet will not be identified or found in the Lamb's book of life. That's pretty scarey. That should make all folks shudder, with the seriousness of their live's futures.

I know that there have been Christians that have been duped into joining organizations, fraternal groups, clubs, Christian, and non-Christian cults, etc, that really have unchristian values at their cores, but did it in total ignorance. Ignorance, as in not filling their new lives with God's scriptures, as a guide in their life's journeys. Romans chapter 12 emphatically tells all believers to renew their minds with scripture. The Berean believers were so ever-watchful of this, that whenever a person came to preach a "gospel" to them, Paul said they would immediately go to their scripture to make sure that this alleged messenger was not leading them away into a different gospel, not brought by God.

Anyway, to say that we must return to the Jewish religion, is an "anathem". Actually Paul said that all believers are circumcized with a circumcision in the heart, but not external. In other words, we are branded from within; bought with a price, and sealed, in the transaction. External stuff doesn't make us more spiritual, or more saved, or gain salvation.

Right on!

I think there's also something (in Corinthians?) about Paul's dream, how all different kinds of animals were "clean" to eat, meaning that the old Jewish customs of "clean" & "unclean" foods were null & void.

 

[glockmail]

.....

The problem with the three major religions, ie Christianity, Judaism and Islam is that they are all militant and bring nothing but heartache and grief to the world with all their killings and torturings.

Care to lump all religious people into your grief fantasy? You must be a Democrat, as no sensible person would make such a broad-based assumption.