USA was really really dumb to move so much manufacturing to China

[Jarlaxle]

Yes, I am aware of this, and I would do the same. You have to make products at a profit, or there is no point in making them. If you can not make something profitably in the US, then you make it elsewhere. That's how life works.

My point was the MAGA hat (which is exactly what the other poster said) is not made outside the US. The MAGA hats are made domestically.

The real ones are...but there are many knockoffs available that are made in China.

 

[luchitociencia]

Yes, I am aware of this, and I would do the same. You have to make products at a profit, or there is no point in making them. If you can not make something profitably in the US, then you make it elsewhere. That's how life works.

My point was the MAGA hat (which is exactly what the other poster said) is not made outside the US. The MAGA hats are made domestically.

The real ones are...but there are many knockoffs available that are made in China.

Today I also found out, public schools for students lunch my State buys Dole can fruit "made in China".

This is really the limit!

China is known for ignoring safety rules, how in the world State governments have put at risk the health of children this way?

 

[Andylusion]

[Andylusion, you don’t know what the “unintentional consequences would be, but your objection to the proposal is you don’t know what?
Annual trade deficits are always net detrimental to their nation’s annual production and they’re particularly net detrimental to their jobs and payrolls. That we do know.

Your contention is that if we don’t try to do better, things won’t worsen? You contend that if we due to government regulations, we better enabled Comcast and Monsanto? We should not have attempted to reign in the “military-industrial complex”? You believe that government is always the problem and is never at least part of solutions? Commercial corporations are generally superior to government agencies? My experience dealing and/or functioning within schools, corporations, hospitals, and the military is that that none in aggregate are more or less likely to screw-up, and individuals are often harmed.

If you find specific faults with the Import Certificates proposal as described within the Wikipedia article, I’m prepared to discuss them. I cannot respond to the sky may fall or other unknown or unintentional consequences. You advocate a policy to never attempt improvement because change is always of some risk? Yesterday was good enough, “don’t rock the boat”?

Respectfully, Supposn

Your contention is that if we don’t try to do better, things won’t worsen? You contend that if we due to government regulations, we better enabled Comcast and Monsanto? We should not have attempted to reign in the “military-industrial complex”? You believe that government is always the problem and is never at least part of solutions? Commercial corporations are generally superior to government agencies? My experience dealing and/or functioning within schools, corporations, hospitals, and the military is that that none in aggregate are more or less likely to screw-up, and individuals are often harmed.

Well my contention is, trying to do better has made things worse. That's backed by empirical evidence. There is a reason we have tru-isms like "the path to hell is paved with good intentions".

Regulations just in general, benefit the big companies at the harm of everyone else.
You can call it trying to do better, but the results were predictable. In fact, I think somewhere on this forum, is a post saying that when the new Net Neutrality regulations are put in place, that Comcast would greatly increase in market dominance, and consumer choice would be reduced.

And of course, I was right. As with Monsantos, there is a podcast on EconTalk where regulations promoted by activists to control Monsanto, resulted in competitors being pushed out, and Monsanto increasing market share.

So... which is more important? Trying to improve things, or empirically determining that your "trying" is doing directly the opposite?

The reality is, de-regulation is what brings more competition in the market, and reduces the ability of the largest companies from shutting out competition.

The key difference between commercial corporations vs government run systems, is that when a government system screws up, it is far more likely to be covered up, and additionally, it ends up costing the entire country.

When Enron failed, it damaged people who invested in Enron. When Sylondra went under, it cost the entire country, in millions of tax dollars.

And I guarantee that if the government could have covered up the failure of Sylondra, they would have. How do I know this?

Fannie and Freddie. That's how I know. Similar to government run systems around the world, when the government is involved, they are far more interested in keep up appearances, than doing what is best for the country.

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, are perfect examples of this. Franklin Raines, appointed by Bill Clinton, and supported by the Democrats, was not just presiding over the worst sub-prime mortgage implosion.... no, Franklin Raines actively worked to cook the books at Fannie Mae, and engaged in clear undeniable fraud. This was clearly documented by OFHEO and the Republicans in 2004.

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac went on to be the largest bank failures of the entire sub-prime crash.

Let me ask you... given clearly... CLEARLY.. documented fraud by Fannie Mae by the leadership of Fannie Mae.... how much time did any of them, let alone Franklin Raines spend in prison?

The CEO of Enron spent time in prison... but of course that's a private non-government company, where the government has no political risk for enforcing the laws. But a government run enterprise, where the leadership is appointed by congress and the executive branch?

Of course none spent even a day in prison.
In fact, the government defended all of these fraudulent fools.


You can watch the video yourself.

 

[Andylusion]

Yes, I am aware of this, and I would do the same. You have to make products at a profit, or there is no point in making them. If you can not make something profitably in the US, then you make it elsewhere. That's how life works.

My point was the MAGA hat (which is exactly what the other poster said) is not made outside the US. The MAGA hats are made domestically.

The real ones are...but there are many knockoffs available that are made in China.

Today I also found out, public schools for students lunch my State buys Dole can fruit "made in China".

This is really the limit!

China is known for ignoring safety rules, how in the world State governments have put at risk the health of children this way?

I think we have had enough outbreaks of food poisoning in domestically produced food, that I don't think the dangers from China are significantly worse.

 

[Andylusion]

Yes, I am aware of this, and I would do the same. You have to make products at a profit, or there is no point in making them. If you can not make something profitably in the US, then you make it elsewhere. That's how life works.

My point was the MAGA hat (which is exactly what the other poster said) is not made outside the US. The MAGA hats are made domestically.

The real ones are...but there are many knockoffs available that are made in China.

Well of course. China makes a knock off of literally everything. Nothing new about that.

 

[luchitociencia]

I think we have had enough outbreaks of food poisoning in domestically produced food, that I don't think the dangers from China are significantly worse.

Oh, what a relief.

Thank you for such a positive reply.

 

[SavannahMann]

You're NOT this stupid. Just not possible.

And yet you are not able to do anything to back your claim. We still have large cars today.One of the most popular vehicles on the road today is the huge trucks. Overall trucks are even larger than they were in the past.

TRUCKS are not cars, you blithering idiot!

You still haven't backed up your position.

CAFE standards. Taxes on cars that USD more gas. (Trucks do not lay these taxes.)

Game, set, match. You lose.

Yes, we increased CAFE standards. That didn't ban big cars like you said so what are you saying? That you miss the days of smog filled cities?

For nearly generations ships produced steam by burning coal. Then after World War One, those ships went away quickly. It wasn’t the result of legislation. It wasn’t the result of requirements. It was the result of economic reality. Oil was better than coal. A new and more reliable system was developed. The market developed a newer and better system that was embraced by the world. Military, Private, and Commercial ships all used this new system.

Oil fired ships have gone the way of the Dodo too. Why? Diesel. Newer, more reliable Diesel engines were produced. Oil became too expensive to maintain, and it went away. Again, not the result of legislation, or requirements.

You say smog filled cities. Before the cars, those cities were awash with disease and the stench of horse droppings. The horses were not legislated away. Sure we have legislation now, but it came long after the fact that the Cars had replaced the horses. Cars were better. Faster, more reliable, and without the problems associated with horses.

Progress will get there. It takes time, and patience. Those smog filled cities were not good, but they were infinitely better than the disease ridden cesspools that existed when horses were the main source of transportation.

Coal fired steam engines driving trains are gone. Oh there are a few left around more for those souls who love the romance of the things. But they are more for tourists than true use as commercial engines.

That is the truth of the world. When you develop something better, you don’t need to legislate it. It will be adapted by the world quickly. Airplanes? No one legislated that they must be used. But after World War II the days of the large Ocean Liners, like the ill fated Titanic, were numbered, and everyone knew it. Why spend days crossing the Atlantic if you could do it in hours? Why spend weeks crossing the Pacific if you could do it in a couple days?

Time and again, progress has eradicated something that was used. Until this century, it was never by Legislation.

The Royal Navy of the United Kingdom. The creators of Pax Britannia in history. They resisted the switch from Sail to Steam for a long time. But once they made the first steam powered iron sided ship, everyone was going to. HMS Warrior was built, and instantly every other ship on the oceans of the world was obsolete. No legislation required it. No international agreements were hammered out. Either you had a steam powered armored ship, or you were not an ocean going sea power.

That has happened many many times in history. Progress happens like that. Warrior was replaced by other newer and improved ships. HMS Dreadnaught, and against instantly all other ships were obsolete. In another decade, Dreadnaught was obsolete by the newer standards foisted upon the world by progress and development.

Aircraft Carriers replaced the big gun battleships, and then missiles replaced bombs.

Cars? You say that Cafe Standards were just to fix a small problem. Nonsense. What CAFE standards have done is make it impossible for the people to fix their own cars. People could learn to tear down a carburetor and fix it. Nobody knows how to fix a computer component. All we can do is replace the thing. Creating more waste, hazardous waste I might add.

Electric Cars are coming, and when they are an improvement over the existing systems, you won’t need to legislate them. People will buy them because they are better. Nobody sells a computer with a paltry 8088 chip anymore. Why? Was it legislated out? No, it was superseded by Pentiums.

Legislation is used when Progress isn’t going fast enough for the impatient Progressives among us. People who don’t want to wait. People who don’t want to let the Market develop new and improved items. They want to force the progress.

The most recent increase to those CAFE standards you are so proud of. They require technology that does not yet exist. Now, it was one thing for Kennedy to call on the nation to go to the moon, and the nation to invest in that non existent technology. But to demand that private companies fund the research, out of their own pockets, while decrying the expense of their products, is ridiculous.

Ford responded to those new standards by developing a new transmission. Ten speed transmission. Ten speed. Seriously? The idea is that with those transmissions, the car can always use the lowest possible RPM’s to maintain speed. But to do so you have to have a computer talking to other computers, and that means more of that hazardous waste you don’t seem to care about.

The biggest problem with Progressives, is that they can’t agree among themselves. The Solar advocates are opposed to wind farms. Why? The wind farms kill birds and that is bad. The Wind guys think Solar folks are idiots. Solar panels only last about twenty years, and then they are nothing but landfill fodder. The Solar folks point out the fiberglass blades on the wind mills are huge problems when they wear out and point to the expense and pollution to get the items shipped to Wyoming where they are similarly landfill fodder.

Electric, Fuel Cell, Partridge in a Pear Tree. Everyone is convinced only they are right, and the rest of the world must be forced to go along with them.

Want to change the world? Develop an engine that gets a hundred miles to a gallon of gas. You won’t need legislation to force it on the people. You won’t need to mandate that the companies adapt their cars to that engine. All you will have to do is hire a lot of security to keep those pounding on your doors for an engine like that from breaking the doors down.

Why don’t we have a ton of Nuclear Reactors providing electricity to the nation? Why are we still building Natural Gas plants? And we are. Whenever one of those awesome solar plants are built, a natural gas plant is also built. You see, they can’t rely on the solar, so they need the natural gas plant to back it up, and the backup becomes the primary. Same thing with wind farms. building a wind farm? Guess what is also being built. Why not build nuclear plants and have greenhouse gas free electrical production going on?

Nah. We’re going to focus on the cars, because CAFE will save us, or something.

 

[luchitociencia]

Nah. We’re going to focus on the cars, because CAFE will save us, or something.

Very informative post. Thanks.

CAFE standards were legislated as emergency measurements, not as environmental purposes.

Reviewing history, the whole mess was originated by a revolutionary military government in Peru. This military government took control of Peru because the democratic government was excessively corrupt., this was at the end of the 60's.

One of the most corrupt actions made by the democratic government of Belaunde administration was the "lost" of a "page 11" of a contract of the government with the International Petroleum Company. Besides the disappearance of the page, the Peruvian government was practically selling the richness of that country to foreign companies.

A few days after the military coup, the main action became to take control of the oil wells which were the reason for the contract with the missing page.

The US took the place of mediator. After several offers and discussions claiming indemnification for the investments made by the International Petroleum Company, the offer was for the military government to let private petroleum companies to look for petroleum in the jungle zone at the north of Peru.

The new government leaded by Velasco Alvarado rejected such proposal and decided to pay the indemnification in several payments. After the deal, the Peruvian government by itself went to the jungle... and "discovered oil"! Lol.

Definitively the oil companies already knew about those oil wells under ground. Those were already marked with iron taps visible from helicopters. Even an Ecuadorian political man traveling over the jungle area in Ecuador saw those iron caps and started to investigate about them. Suddenly he was took from his political position and was declared "mentally ill". Lol.

Well, in those years the car manufacturing didn't care at all about energy saving engines for cars.

But, as the Arab countries observed a small insignificant country like Peru confronting face to face to such powers as the US government and the private oil corporation, they put dynamite in all their wells and demanded a higher price for crude oil, and if any military action was initiated by the US or any other foreign government, then they will fire up the wells and the worldwide economy will go down as a complete disaster without recovery for decades.

The economical impact of higher price for crude oil was felt everywhere. In third world countries the inflation was double, a gallon of gasoline was twice the price per gallon from one day to another, Countries were forced to made schedules so car owners can only drive their cars on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays, other group on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays, and stickers were posted in windshields to identify their schedule by police.

Here is when CAFE standards were created and applied.

No more eight cylinder "boats" being the kings of the roads, six and four cylinder cars in the US and everywhere were the new kings of the streets.

The car industry was forced to become more energy saving friend.

Years later, slowly but surely, the private oil companies managed to send troops from US and Europe to destroy Arab governments in order to take control of their oil again.

Still, the CAFE standards were kept, you know... just in case...

 

[Bobob]

I'm talking about reasons for moving to China.

They moved to China and India.
Indians are 100% compliant, they take shit from MBAs, work 24/7, receive no health benefits or vacation time.
The H1-Bs in America send most of their paycheck to India so the US loses discretionary spending dollars.

China is a totalitarian nation, so most of their workers are slaves.
Our trade deals include work conditions, hours and wages; all of which are violated by China.

Regardless, I am referring to their reasons for moving.

I just posted why...greed.

Wrong. Not greed, but the need to show the profit margin that investors demand and are entitled to. Also when business takes a dive, they heed lots of capital to survive the storm. Manufacturing in our country is now in a recession and 20% of farmers have gone bankrupt
due to trump's trade wars. Of course, they are going to look for better markets because it will be a struggle to survive here. That is the reason why our manufacturing has moved abroad.

The need to show profit margin...
Greed.
I have spoken with many a RWer who cares nothing about new products, just the need to see their assets increase on their smart devices.
It’s called avarice.

Some, like you, call it avarice. Others, like me (35 yrs in business) call it survival. When a company cannot compete in the marketplace,
it closes its doors or moves to a place where it can compete. This is why many of our companies have left our shores over the decades.

 

[pknopp]

You still haven't backed up your position.

CAFE standards. Taxes on cars that USD more gas. (Trucks do not lay these taxes.)

Game, set, match. You lose.

Yes, we increased CAFE standards. That didn't ban big cars like you said so what are you saying? That you miss the days of smog filled cities?

Boy, you are NOT this thick. Just isn't possible. Fuel consumption has nothing to do with emissions. (Offhand, the Charger paid a gas guzzler tax...and is a tier 2 ULEV.)

Since you were unable to provide any laws that banned big cars I had to assume you had another motive and took a guess.

Now, do you have an example of these laws or not?

One more time, shit for brains: corporate average fuel economy laws.

That made big cars more efficient. But I don't expect much less from those who think name calling is a valid rebuttal.

 

[pknopp]

And yet you are not able to do anything to back your claim. We still have large cars today.One of the most popular vehicles on the road today is the huge trucks. Overall trucks are even larger than they were in the past.

TRUCKS are not cars, you blithering idiot!

You still haven't backed up your position.

CAFE standards. Taxes on cars that USD more gas. (Trucks do not lay these taxes.)

Game, set, match. You lose.

Yes, we increased CAFE standards. That didn't ban big cars like you said so what are you saying? That you miss the days of smog filled cities?

For nearly generations ships produced steam by burning coal. Then after World War One, those ships went away quickly. It wasn’t the result of legislation. It wasn’t the result of requirements. It was the result of economic reality. Oil was better than coal. A new and more reliable system was developed. The market developed a newer and better system that was embraced by the world. Military, Private, and Commercial ships all used this new system.

Oil fired ships have gone the way of the Dodo too. Why? Diesel. Newer, more reliable Diesel engines were produced. Oil became too expensive to maintain, and it went away. Again, not the result of legislation, or requirements.

You say smog filled cities. Before the cars, those cities were awash with disease and the stench of horse droppings. The horses were not legislated away. Sure we have legislation now, but it came long after the fact that the Cars had replaced the horses. Cars were better. Faster, more reliable, and without the problems associated with horses.

Progress will get there. It takes time, and patience. Those smog filled cities were not good, but they were infinitely better than the disease ridden cesspools that existed when horses were the main source of transportation.

Coal fired steam engines driving trains are gone. Oh there are a few left around more for those souls who love the romance of the things. But they are more for tourists than true use as commercial engines.

That is the truth of the world. When you develop something better, you don’t need to legislate it. It will be adapted by the world quickly. Airplanes? No one legislated that they must be used. But after World War II the days of the large Ocean Liners, like the ill fated Titanic, were numbered, and everyone knew it. Why spend days crossing the Atlantic if you could do it in hours? Why spend weeks crossing the Pacific if you could do it in a couple days?

Time and again, progress has eradicated something that was used. Until this century, it was never by Legislation.

The Royal Navy of the United Kingdom. The creators of Pax Britannia in history. They resisted the switch from Sail to Steam for a long time. But once they made the first steam powered iron sided ship, everyone was going to. HMS Warrior was built, and instantly every other ship on the oceans of the world was obsolete. No legislation required it. No international agreements were hammered out. Either you had a steam powered armored ship, or you were not an ocean going sea power.

That has happened many many times in history. Progress happens like that. Warrior was replaced by other newer and improved ships. HMS Dreadnaught, and against instantly all other ships were obsolete. In another decade, Dreadnaught was obsolete by the newer standards foisted upon the world by progress and development.

Aircraft Carriers replaced the big gun battleships, and then missiles replaced bombs.

Cars? You say that Cafe Standards were just to fix a small problem. Nonsense. What CAFE standards have done is make it impossible for the people to fix their own cars. People could learn to tear down a carburetor and fix it. Nobody knows how to fix a computer component. All we can do is replace the thing. Creating more waste, hazardous waste I might add.

Electric Cars are coming, and when they are an improvement over the existing systems, you won’t need to legislate them. People will buy them because they are better. Nobody sells a computer with a paltry 8088 chip anymore. Why? Was it legislated out? No, it was superseded by Pentiums.

Legislation is used when Progress isn’t going fast enough for the impatient Progressives among us. People who don’t want to wait. People who don’t want to let the Market develop new and improved items. They want to force the progress.

The most recent increase to those CAFE standards you are so proud of. They require technology that does not yet exist. Now, it was one thing for Kennedy to call on the nation to go to the moon, and the nation to invest in that non existent technology. But to demand that private companies fund the research, out of their own pockets, while decrying the expense of their products, is ridiculous.

Ford responded to those new standards by developing a new transmission. Ten speed transmission. Ten speed. Seriously? The idea is that with those transmissions, the car can always use the lowest possible RPM’s to maintain speed. But to do so you have to have a computer talking to other computers, and that means more of that hazardous waste you don’t seem to care about.

The biggest problem with Progressives, is that they can’t agree among themselves. The Solar advocates are opposed to wind farms. Why? The wind farms kill birds and that is bad. The Wind guys think Solar folks are idiots. Solar panels only last about twenty years, and then they are nothing but landfill fodder. The Solar folks point out the fiberglass blades on the wind mills are huge problems when they wear out and point to the expense and pollution to get the items shipped to Wyoming where they are similarly landfill fodder.

Electric, Fuel Cell, Partridge in a Pear Tree. Everyone is convinced only they are right, and the rest of the world must be forced to go along with them.

Want to change the world? Develop an engine that gets a hundred miles to a gallon of gas. You won’t need legislation to force it on the people. You won’t need to mandate that the companies adapt their cars to that engine. All you will have to do is hire a lot of security to keep those pounding on your doors for an engine like that from breaking the doors down.

Why don’t we have a ton of Nuclear Reactors providing electricity to the nation? Why are we still building Natural Gas plants? And we are. Whenever one of those awesome solar plants are built, a natural gas plant is also built. You see, they can’t rely on the solar, so they need the natural gas plant to back it up, and the backup becomes the primary. Same thing with wind farms. building a wind farm? Guess what is also being built. Why not build nuclear plants and have greenhouse gas free electrical production going on?

Nah. We’re going to focus on the cars, because CAFE will save us, or something.

LOL, CAFE ratings helped save the American car industry. For some odd reason they refused to deliver what people wanted. Higher efficient cars. It's why people turned to Toyota and Honda. GM had the arrogant belief that people would simply buy that they produced.

Choosing a Corolla over a Vega was an easy choice.

Trump brags about how we are now oil independent. That's great but we don't get there without the push of higher CAFE ratings.

 

[Indeependent]

They moved to China and India.
Indians are 100% compliant, they take shit from MBAs, work 24/7, receive no health benefits or vacation time.
The H1-Bs in America send most of their paycheck to India so the US loses discretionary spending dollars.

China is a totalitarian nation, so most of their workers are slaves.
Our trade deals include work conditions, hours and wages; all of which are violated by China.

Regardless, I am referring to their reasons for moving.

I just posted why...greed.

Wrong. Not greed, but the need to show the profit margin that investors demand and are entitled to. Also when business takes a dive, they heed lots of capital to survive the storm. Manufacturing in our country is now in a recession and 20% of farmers have gone bankrupt
due to trump's trade wars. Of course, they are going to look for better markets because it will be a struggle to survive here. That is the reason why our manufacturing has moved abroad.

The need to show profit margin...
Greed.
I have spoken with many a RWer who cares nothing about new products, just the need to see their assets increase on their smart devices.
It’s called avarice.

Some, like you, call it avarice. Others, like me (35 yrs in business) call it survival. When a company cannot compete in the marketplace,
it closes its doors or moves to a place where it can compete. This is why many of our companies have left our shores over the decades.

If we didn’t off-shore everything, everybody would be on an even playing field, which renders your greed and avarice exposed.

 

[Jarlaxle]

LOL, CAFE ratings helped save the American car industry. For some odd reason they refused to deliver what people wanted. Higher efficient cars. It's why people turned to Toyota and Honda. GM had the arrogant belief that people would simply buy that they produced.

Choosing a Corolla over a Vega was an easy choice.

Trump brags about how we are now oil independent. That's great but we don't get there without the push of higher CAFE ratings.

And yet...the best selling vehicles in the country for forty years have been, without exception, TRUCKS. One reason trucks are popular...they are not subject to the same CAFE rules, and are exempt from the gas guzzler tax.

 

[pknopp]

LOL, CAFE ratings helped save the American car industry. For some odd reason they refused to deliver what people wanted. Higher efficient cars. It's why people turned to Toyota and Honda. GM had the arrogant belief that people would simply buy that they produced.

Choosing a Corolla over a Vega was an easy choice.

Trump brags about how we are now oil independent. That's great but we don't get there without the push of higher CAFE ratings.

And yet...the best selling vehicles in the country for forty years have been, without exception, TRUCKS. One reason trucks are popular...they are not subject to the same CAFE rules, and are exempt from the gas guzzler tax.

Trucks still are subjected to Cafe standards.

 

[Andylusion]

I think we have had enough outbreaks of food poisoning in domestically produced food, that I don't think the dangers from China are significantly worse.

Oh, what a relief.

Thank you for such a positive reply.

Point being, screaming about imported food, when you have a much greater chance of getting an illness from domestic food, is a bit ridiculous.

 

[Jarlaxle]

LOL, CAFE ratings helped save the American car industry. For some odd reason they refused to deliver what people wanted. Higher efficient cars. It's why people turned to Toyota and Honda. GM had the arrogant belief that people would simply buy that they produced.

Choosing a Corolla over a Vega was an easy choice.

Trump brags about how we are now oil independent. That's great but we don't get there without the push of higher CAFE ratings.

And yet...the best selling vehicles in the country for forty years have been, without exception, TRUCKS. One reason trucks are popular...they are not subject to the same CAFE rules, and are exempt from the gas guzzler tax.

Trucks still are subjected to Cafe standards.

No shit. But they are LOWER...and again, TRUCKS don't pay the gas guzzler tax.

HD trucks are 100% exempt.

 

[pknopp]

LOL, CAFE ratings helped save the American car industry. For some odd reason they refused to deliver what people wanted. Higher efficient cars. It's why people turned to Toyota and Honda. GM had the arrogant belief that people would simply buy that they produced.

Choosing a Corolla over a Vega was an easy choice.

Trump brags about how we are now oil independent. That's great but we don't get there without the push of higher CAFE ratings.

And yet...the best selling vehicles in the country for forty years have been, without exception, TRUCKS. One reason trucks are popular...they are not subject to the same CAFE rules, and are exempt from the gas guzzler tax.

Trucks still are subjected to Cafe standards.

No shit. But they are LOWER...and again, TRUCKS don't pay the gas guzzler tax.

HD trucks are 100% exempt.

Minivans aren't either but really, this is all a minor point.

 

[Invisibleflash]

OP...it is just capitalism. Most profit wins.

And capitalism is what sold control of CA to Mehico.

...and it will eventually take down America.

 

[Jarlaxle]

LOL, CAFE ratings helped save the American car industry. For some odd reason they refused to deliver what people wanted. Higher efficient cars. It's why people turned to Toyota and Honda. GM had the arrogant belief that people would simply buy that they produced.

Choosing a Corolla over a Vega was an easy choice.

Trump brags about how we are now oil independent. That's great but we don't get there without the push of higher CAFE ratings.

And yet...the best selling vehicles in the country for forty years have been, without exception, TRUCKS. One reason trucks are popular...they are not subject to the same CAFE rules, and are exempt from the gas guzzler tax.

Trucks still are subjected to Cafe standards.

No shit. But they are LOWER...and again, TRUCKS don't pay the gas guzzler tax.

HD trucks are 100% exempt.

Minivans aren't either but really, this is all a minor point.

For CAFE purposes, minivans and SUVs are trucks!

 

[SavannahMann]

TRUCKS are not cars, you blithering idiot!

You still haven't backed up your position.

CAFE standards. Taxes on cars that USD more gas. (Trucks do not lay these taxes.)

Game, set, match. You lose.

Yes, we increased CAFE standards. That didn't ban big cars like you said so what are you saying? That you miss the days of smog filled cities?

For nearly generations ships produced steam by burning coal. Then after World War One, those ships went away quickly. It wasn’t the result of legislation. It wasn’t the result of requirements. It was the result of economic reality. Oil was better than coal. A new and more reliable system was developed. The market developed a newer and better system that was embraced by the world. Military, Private, and Commercial ships all used this new system.

Oil fired ships have gone the way of the Dodo too. Why? Diesel. Newer, more reliable Diesel engines were produced. Oil became too expensive to maintain, and it went away. Again, not the result of legislation, or requirements.

You say smog filled cities. Before the cars, those cities were awash with disease and the stench of horse droppings. The horses were not legislated away. Sure we have legislation now, but it came long after the fact that the Cars had replaced the horses. Cars were better. Faster, more reliable, and without the problems associated with horses.

Progress will get there. It takes time, and patience. Those smog filled cities were not good, but they were infinitely better than the disease ridden cesspools that existed when horses were the main source of transportation.

Coal fired steam engines driving trains are gone. Oh there are a few left around more for those souls who love the romance of the things. But they are more for tourists than true use as commercial engines.

That is the truth of the world. When you develop something better, you don’t need to legislate it. It will be adapted by the world quickly. Airplanes? No one legislated that they must be used. But after World War II the days of the large Ocean Liners, like the ill fated Titanic, were numbered, and everyone knew it. Why spend days crossing the Atlantic if you could do it in hours? Why spend weeks crossing the Pacific if you could do it in a couple days?

Time and again, progress has eradicated something that was used. Until this century, it was never by Legislation.

The Royal Navy of the United Kingdom. The creators of Pax Britannia in history. They resisted the switch from Sail to Steam for a long time. But once they made the first steam powered iron sided ship, everyone was going to. HMS Warrior was built, and instantly every other ship on the oceans of the world was obsolete. No legislation required it. No international agreements were hammered out. Either you had a steam powered armored ship, or you were not an ocean going sea power.

That has happened many many times in history. Progress happens like that. Warrior was replaced by other newer and improved ships. HMS Dreadnaught, and against instantly all other ships were obsolete. In another decade, Dreadnaught was obsolete by the newer standards foisted upon the world by progress and development.

Aircraft Carriers replaced the big gun battleships, and then missiles replaced bombs.

Cars? You say that Cafe Standards were just to fix a small problem. Nonsense. What CAFE standards have done is make it impossible for the people to fix their own cars. People could learn to tear down a carburetor and fix it. Nobody knows how to fix a computer component. All we can do is replace the thing. Creating more waste, hazardous waste I might add.

Electric Cars are coming, and when they are an improvement over the existing systems, you won’t need to legislate them. People will buy them because they are better. Nobody sells a computer with a paltry 8088 chip anymore. Why? Was it legislated out? No, it was superseded by Pentiums.

Legislation is used when Progress isn’t going fast enough for the impatient Progressives among us. People who don’t want to wait. People who don’t want to let the Market develop new and improved items. They want to force the progress.

The most recent increase to those CAFE standards you are so proud of. They require technology that does not yet exist. Now, it was one thing for Kennedy to call on the nation to go to the moon, and the nation to invest in that non existent technology. But to demand that private companies fund the research, out of their own pockets, while decrying the expense of their products, is ridiculous.

Ford responded to those new standards by developing a new transmission. Ten speed transmission. Ten speed. Seriously? The idea is that with those transmissions, the car can always use the lowest possible RPM’s to maintain speed. But to do so you have to have a computer talking to other computers, and that means more of that hazardous waste you don’t seem to care about.

The biggest problem with Progressives, is that they can’t agree among themselves. The Solar advocates are opposed to wind farms. Why? The wind farms kill birds and that is bad. The Wind guys think Solar folks are idiots. Solar panels only last about twenty years, and then they are nothing but landfill fodder. The Solar folks point out the fiberglass blades on the wind mills are huge problems when they wear out and point to the expense and pollution to get the items shipped to Wyoming where they are similarly landfill fodder.

Electric, Fuel Cell, Partridge in a Pear Tree. Everyone is convinced only they are right, and the rest of the world must be forced to go along with them.

Want to change the world? Develop an engine that gets a hundred miles to a gallon of gas. You won’t need legislation to force it on the people. You won’t need to mandate that the companies adapt their cars to that engine. All you will have to do is hire a lot of security to keep those pounding on your doors for an engine like that from breaking the doors down.

Why don’t we have a ton of Nuclear Reactors providing electricity to the nation? Why are we still building Natural Gas plants? And we are. Whenever one of those awesome solar plants are built, a natural gas plant is also built. You see, they can’t rely on the solar, so they need the natural gas plant to back it up, and the backup becomes the primary. Same thing with wind farms. building a wind farm? Guess what is also being built. Why not build nuclear plants and have greenhouse gas free electrical production going on?

Nah. We’re going to focus on the cars, because CAFE will save us, or something.

LOL, CAFE ratings helped save the American car industry. For some odd reason they refused to deliver what people wanted. Higher efficient cars. It's why people turned to Toyota and Honda. GM had the arrogant belief that people would simply buy that they produced.

Choosing a Corolla over a Vega was an easy choice.

Trump brags about how we are now oil independent. That's great but we don't get there without the push of higher CAFE ratings.

It was not CAFE that saved the car industry. It was the adaptation of foreign manufacturing techniques. Robots as one example. Today the bodies of the cars are welded and painted by robots. An assembly line was more efficient than a single mechanic building something. Robots are more efficient than a line of workers.

If you want proof look at the history of the English car companies. They all went belly up despite making fuel efficient cars. Now the brands are owned by foreign companies and building using those same techniques they resisted in the 1970’s. The Government did not legislate those companies into receivership. The market picked the better product.

The amount of ignorance in your replies is often difficult to grasp.