The value of slavery?

[Montrovant]

Because I have no say in the matter. And they are being paid for land mismanagement, not for being NA.

That's only the Cobell case and those reparations extend from the Dawes Act of the 1800's. How about the rest of the annual payments to Native American tribes? And blacks are not asking for reparations for being black.

Agreed.. but why do you want to be paid from people that never participated in slavery for something that never happened to you ?

We missed 200 plus years of income that would have dramatically changed things today for blacks because of slavery. It has happened to us. You benefit from it because of the additional wealth whites have been able to gather during that same time period. There are things resulting from slavery that you guys refuse to consider because whites did not have to live with the negative consequences of not being paid for work for over 200 years. To you guys it's simple. you were not slaves why are you asking for reparations for slavery?

So the next time your white ass drives by a black slum, ask yourself, "would this slum exist had blacks been able to earn the trillions they the lost over the 223 years blacks were slaves?"

You make it sound as if wages would have made everything better. The laws and attitudes of the population would still have been a huge problem, wages or not. You've argued that reparations are about far more than just slavery before and I think it sounds more sensible when taken as that whole. Couching it in terms of only the wages slaves did not receive isn't nearly as convincing.

I do understand that this thread is based specifically on slavery and reparations for that.

It's not going to matter what we say to you about this issue. No matter what we show you or the other whites here, you are going to have excuses.

WTF? Did you even read what I posted?

Do you think that if black slaves had been paid wages it would have overcome the racist laws and attitudes of the majority?

Even when someone agrees with you, you try to make it seem like that person is making some sort of excuse.

 

[Asclepias]

That's only the Cobell case and those reparations extend from the Dawes Act of the 1800's. How about the rest of the annual payments to Native American tribes? And blacks are not asking for reparations for being black.

Agreed.. but why do you want to be paid from people that never participated in slavery for something that never happened to you ?

We missed 200 plus years of income that would have dramatically changed things today for blacks because of slavery. It has happened to us. You benefit from it because of the additional wealth whites have been able to gather during that same time period. There are things resulting from slavery that you guys refuse to consider because whites did not have to live with the negative consequences of not being paid for work for over 200 years. To you guys it's simple. you were not slaves why are you asking for reparations for slavery?

So the next time your white ass drives by a black slum, ask yourself, "would this slum exist had blacks been able to earn the trillions they the lost over the 223 years blacks were slaves?"

You make it sound as if wages would have made everything better. The laws and attitudes of the population would still have been a huge problem, wages or not. You've argued that reparations are about far more than just slavery before and I think it sounds more sensible when taken as that whole. Couching it in terms of only the wages slaves did not receive isn't nearly as convincing.

I do understand that this thread is based specifically on slavery and reparations for that.

It's not going to matter what we say to you about this issue. No matter what we show you or the other whites here, you are going to have excuses.

WTF? Did you even read what I posted?

Do you think that if black slaves had been paid wages it would have overcome the racist laws and attitudes of the majority?

Even when someone agrees with you, you try to make it seem like that person is making some sort of excuse.

I dont think you quite get the point. No one cares what some random racist white boy thinks or even the majority. Money/economic power is what enabled Blacks to build thriving communities. I dont give shit about what some white boy thinks of my lifestyle. I'm going to do me and teach other Blacks how its done. Economic power is the tool we would use to level the playing field.

 

[gallantwarrior]

Truth is, reparations were already provided for freed slaves immediately following the conclusion of the Civil War. A large swath of real estate was confiscated from Southern landowners and earmarked for distribution to any freed slave who applied for a designated portion thereof. The apportioned land, and subsequent mule, was intended for the freed slave to establish himself and provide for his family. So, the opportunity for economic stability was available. Since the original freed slaves were already provided opportunity to claim some portion of real property "provided" by those assumed to have owned slaves, there is no need to pay descendants of slaves any amount of money, regardless of source.

"Today, we commonly use the phrase "40 acres and a mule," but few of us have read the Order itself. Three of its parts are relevant here. Section one bears repeating in full: "The islands from Charleston, south, the abandoned rice fields along the rivers for thirty miles back from the sea, and the country bordering the St. Johns river, Florida, are reserved and set apart for the settlement of the negroes [sic] now made free by the acts of war and the proclamation of the President of the United States."

Section two specifies that these new communities, moreover, would be governed entirely by black people themselves: " … on the islands, and in the settlements hereafter to be established, no white person whatever, unless military officers and soldiers detailed for duty, will be permitted to reside; and the sole and exclusive management of affairs will be left to the freed people themselves … By the laws of war, and orders of the President of the United States, the negro [sic] is free and must be dealt with as such."

Finally, section three specifies the allocation of land: " … each family shall have a plot of not more than (40) acres of tillable ground, and when it borders on some water channel, with not more than 800 feet water front, in the possession of which land the military authorities will afford them protection, until such time as they can protect themselves, or until Congress shall regulate their title."

With this Order, 400,000 acres of land — "a strip of coastline stretching from Charleston, South Carolina, to the St. John's River in Florida, including Georgia's Sea Islands and the mainland thirty miles in from the coast," as Barton Myers reports — would be redistributed to the newly freed slaves. The extent of this Order and its larger implications are mind-boggling, actually."
https://www.theroot.com/the-truth-behind-40-acres-and-a-mule-1790894780

The one problem with that is in reality very few got the acres and mules in the end.

The offer was there and available to any who would claim it.

 

[Asclepias]

Truth is, reparations were already provided for freed slaves immediately following the conclusion of the Civil War. A large swath of real estate was confiscated from Southern landowners and earmarked for distribution to any freed slave who applied for a designated portion thereof. The apportioned land, and subsequent mule, was intended for the freed slave to establish himself and provide for his family. So, the opportunity for economic stability was available. Since the original freed slaves were already provided opportunity to claim some portion of real property "provided" by those assumed to have owned slaves, there is no need to pay descendants of slaves any amount of money, regardless of source.

"Today, we commonly use the phrase "40 acres and a mule," but few of us have read the Order itself. Three of its parts are relevant here. Section one bears repeating in full: "The islands from Charleston, south, the abandoned rice fields along the rivers for thirty miles back from the sea, and the country bordering the St. Johns river, Florida, are reserved and set apart for the settlement of the negroes [sic] now made free by the acts of war and the proclamation of the President of the United States."

Section two specifies that these new communities, moreover, would be governed entirely by black people themselves: " … on the islands, and in the settlements hereafter to be established, no white person whatever, unless military officers and soldiers detailed for duty, will be permitted to reside; and the sole and exclusive management of affairs will be left to the freed people themselves … By the laws of war, and orders of the President of the United States, the negro [sic] is free and must be dealt with as such."

Finally, section three specifies the allocation of land: " … each family shall have a plot of not more than (40) acres of tillable ground, and when it borders on some water channel, with not more than 800 feet water front, in the possession of which land the military authorities will afford them protection, until such time as they can protect themselves, or until Congress shall regulate their title."

With this Order, 400,000 acres of land — "a strip of coastline stretching from Charleston, South Carolina, to the St. John's River in Florida, including Georgia's Sea Islands and the mainland thirty miles in from the coast," as Barton Myers reports — would be redistributed to the newly freed slaves. The extent of this Order and its larger implications are mind-boggling, actually."
https://www.theroot.com/the-truth-behind-40-acres-and-a-mule-1790894780

The one problem with that is in reality very few got the acres and mules in the end.

The offer was there and available to any who would claim it.

Many claimed it but it was stolen later by whites. Specifically Johnson who rescinded the order made by Sherman. Kind of helps to know your history before making claims you obviously have no knowledge about.

Forty Acres and a Mule | The Black Past: Remembered and Reclaimed

"Less than a year after Sherman’s order, President Andrew Johnson intervened, and ordered that the vast majority of confiscated land be returned to its former owners. This included most of land that the freedmen had settled. The Federal government dispossessed tens of thousands of black landholders. In Georgia and South Carolina, some blacks fought back, driving away former owners with guns. Federal troops sometimes evicted blacks by force. In the end only some 2,000 blacks retained land they had won and worked after the war."

 

[gallantwarrior]

Most whites aren't millionaires, either. So you have some point? Are you suggesting that the US taxpayer be dunned to make instant millionaires out of the previously identified group of blacks? Before blacks were brought to this country as slaves, Native Americans were used as slave labor. Any suggestions? (Blacks were considered superior slaves because Native Americans were more likely to let themselves die than be chattel labor or be denied their freedom.)

My point is what I wrote. If most Blacks are millionaires then the economic wealth gap whites enjoy goes away.
No. I am suggesting the US pay what is owed to the descendants of those enslaved due to the US allowing chattel slavery. Isnt that what we are talking about?
Not all Native Americans were Black so I dont understand the deflection?

What makes you think it would be reinvested into

Herein lies the crux of our dispute: Two specific problems I can see with your proposal to dun modern day taxpayers: Millions of people today who were not participants in nor responsible for the actions of thie government at a time when slavery was an acceptable practice worldwide. (Slavery is still rampant in some places on this planet, even to this day.) The same government that worked to criminalize and eliminate the practice of slavery, even to the point of destroying the nation through armed conflict, if necessary. Do you disregard the lives of whites sacrificed in the bid to eliminate slavery and negate their sacrifices?
The second is: you are not asking for fair and equitable payments made by the descendants of those who owned slaves to those descendants of slaves held in this country. What you are asking for is a big KaChing! payout funded by big government coffers filled by totally innocent persons in sums to be determined by anyone "qualified" for retribution for a condition that ceased to exist, legally, in this country well over 100 years ago. Even if it were equitable for the sons to pay for the sins of their fathers, where is there any justification to force payment for anyone's sins by the innocent?
I am sorry if your great- or great-great-grandparents suffered slavery. But I will offer no personal apology because my forebears played no part in holding or trading slaves.
But supposing such reparations were to be paid to qualified persons, please explain how you believe that money would serve to improve the economy of the black community?

Doesnt matter if modern day people are responsible or not. Again its the US's debt to pay and they pay that with tax dollars. Slavery existing or having existed elsewhere has absolutely nothing to do with this. The US didnt go to war to end slavery. It went to war to keep the south from leaving. We know this because the enslaved were not freed in the Union states until later.

Its our right to go after direct descendants at a later date and time we determine. Whites dont dictate to us when and in what order we should sue for reparations.

The justification is that they are part of the US that benefited from and legalized chattel slavery.

You dont have to offer any apology. Any apology would be hollow and condescending in light of the economic gap that you dont want to address and refuse to believe in.

That money would instantly close the economic gap if paid. Not only that it could go to fund Black K-12 schools and bolster the HBCU's currently in existence. Basically it would be another Black Wall Street before jealous whites burned it to the ground. If you need to understand how money can change a community look at the history of Black Wall Street and other like Black communities before whites destroyed them.

So people should be forced to pay for the crimes of their forbears?

In your last paragraph why do you think reparations would go to any of that? Look at what happens with the typical lottery winner.

Yes they should if they profited from those crimes and others suffered because of those crimes. However, thats not what we are talking about. The US is paying the debt not those individuals. The US is responsible and complicit in those crimes due to the legalizing of chattel slavery.

Not sure what lotto winners have to do with my point? I think it would go that way because its been discussed in the Black community and the consensus is exactly what I stated.

There probably isn't a single person living who doesn't have ancestors who committed 'crimes' which caused others to suffer. Whether or not they have profited from the crimes of their ancestors is debatable, of course.

Is there a point at which reparations for slavery would no longer be valid, because too much time/too many generations would have passed? It's currently about 5 generations since the abolition of slavery, if you judge a generation by 30-year increments. At this point, you would have people getting reparations for things done to their great-great-great grandparents. Perhaps that is perfectly acceptable. Would it be fine after 10 generations? 20? Is the time limit (if any) the same for any crimes worthy of reparations, or is it different for each circumstance?

Lottery winners would be a similar situation in which individuals come into a large sum of money suddenly. I assume that is the comparison Coyote was making.

There is a consensus in the black community about how reparations would be used? There are something like 40-50 million blacks living in the US, how many would you say have agreed on how reparations given to individuals would be spent?

I think thats a false equivalency. The closest any other group of people come to experiencing the horrors and atrocities committed by the US are probably the NA's. They are currently getting some reparations. Blacks experienced the atrocity and horrors of slavery for multiple generations without pay.

No. I dont see there being a point where reparations would be invalid. Its pretty much coded in the word reparations. Nowhere is a time limit specified. I know thats what most whites would like. For Blacks to pretend it never happened. The problem is only going to get worse and larger with time. Whites should learn that its not clever or cool to welch on their debts. Whites in the US profited from slavery either directly or indirectly and now theyre against making things right.

Pretty much. We understand as a group that the only way to fight racism is to invest in our own communities. I have never taken an official count. It doesnt work that way with us.

So, the best way to fight racism is with racism. Yet you rail against whites wishing to invest in white communities in order to ensure the economic, social, and intellectual success of those communities.

 

[gallantwarrior]

Most whites aren't millionaires, either. So you have some point? Are you suggesting that the US taxpayer be dunned to make instant millionaires out of the previously identified group of blacks? Before blacks were brought to this country as slaves, Native Americans were used as slave labor. Any suggestions? (Blacks were considered superior slaves because Native Americans were more likely to let themselves die than be chattel labor or be denied their freedom.)

My point is what I wrote. If most Blacks are millionaires then the economic wealth gap whites enjoy goes away.
No. I am suggesting the US pay what is owed to the descendants of those enslaved due to the US allowing chattel slavery. Isnt that what we are talking about?
Not all Native Americans were Black so I dont understand the deflection?

What makes you think it would be reinvested into

Herein lies the crux of our dispute: Two specific problems I can see with your proposal to dun modern day taxpayers: Millions of people today who were not participants in nor responsible for the actions of thie government at a time when slavery was an acceptable practice worldwide. (Slavery is still rampant in some places on this planet, even to this day.) The same government that worked to criminalize and eliminate the practice of slavery, even to the point of destroying the nation through armed conflict, if necessary. Do you disregard the lives of whites sacrificed in the bid to eliminate slavery and negate their sacrifices?
The second is: you are not asking for fair and equitable payments made by the descendants of those who owned slaves to those descendants of slaves held in this country. What you are asking for is a big KaChing! payout funded by big government coffers filled by totally innocent persons in sums to be determined by anyone "qualified" for retribution for a condition that ceased to exist, legally, in this country well over 100 years ago. Even if it were equitable for the sons to pay for the sins of their fathers, where is there any justification to force payment for anyone's sins by the innocent?
I am sorry if your great- or great-great-grandparents suffered slavery. But I will offer no personal apology because my forebears played no part in holding or trading slaves.
But supposing such reparations were to be paid to qualified persons, please explain how you believe that money would serve to improve the economy of the black community?

Doesnt matter if modern day people are responsible or not. Again its the US's debt to pay and they pay that with tax dollars. Slavery existing or having existed elsewhere has absolutely nothing to do with this. The US didnt go to war to end slavery. It went to war to keep the south from leaving. We know this because the enslaved were not freed in the Union states until later.

Its our right to go after direct descendants at a later date and time we determine. Whites dont dictate to us when and in what order we should sue for reparations.

The justification is that they are part of the US that benefited from and legalized chattel slavery.

You dont have to offer any apology. Any apology would be hollow and condescending in light of the economic gap that you dont want to address and refuse to believe in.

That money would instantly close the economic gap if paid. Not only that it could go to fund Black K-12 schools and bolster the HBCU's currently in existence. Basically it would be another Black Wall Street before jealous whites burned it to the ground. If you need to understand how money can change a community look at the history of Black Wall Street and other like Black communities before whites destroyed them.

So people should be forced to pay for the crimes of their forbears?

In your last paragraph why do you think reparations would go to any of that? Look at what happens with the typical lottery winner.

Yes they should if they profited from those crimes and others suffered because of those crimes. However, thats not what we are talking about. The US is paying the debt not those individuals. The US is responsible and complicit in those crimes due to the legalizing of chattel slavery.

Not sure what lotto winners have to do with my point? I think it would go that way because its been discussed in the Black community and the consensus is exactly what I stated.

Lottery is an example of what people do when the win large sums of money. Same with rhose who got tax rebates as stimulus. People think individually first, family second..and then tribe or community. I dont see why this would be any different.

Alot of Blacks understand the fallacy of thinking individually in this country. If the Black population here in the US knew most Blacks were getting a large sum of money then they would agree to start working on the community. We know this because this is how we built successful communities in the past.

That was the past. You're dealing with a whole different breed nowadays, as we all are.

 

[gallantwarrior]

What makes you think it would be reinvested into
So people should be forced to pay for the crimes of their forbears?

In your last paragraph why do you think reparations would go to any of that? Look at what happens with the typical lottery winner.

Yes they should if they profited from those crimes and others suffered because of those crimes. However, thats not what we are talking about. The US is paying the debt not those individuals. The US is responsible and complicit in those crimes due to the legalizing of chattel slavery.

Not sure what lotto winners have to do with my point? I think it would go that way because its been discussed in the Black community and the consensus is exactly what I stated.

Lottery is an example of what people do when the win large sums of money. Same with rhose who got tax rebates as stimulus. People think individually first, family second..and then tribe or community. I dont see why this would be any different.

Alot of Blacks understand the fallacy of thinking individually in this country. If the Black population here in the US knew most Blacks were getting a large sum of money then they would agree to start working on the community. We know this because this is how we built successful communities in the past.

I think you severely underate human nature here. People are individuals first. That is why communism was such a flop, it ignored the "what is in it for me" aspect.

No. People (at least Black people) are by nature social animals. They go crazy without human companionship. Thats why solitary confinement is used as a punishment. Like I was saying. Its not like we are guessing about this. We have proof because we did it in the past.

https://www.theroot.com/the-other-black-wall-streets-1823010812


Communism was massively successful. Its the basis of the first civilizations. Without it the human species would not have survived.

All normal people, black or otherwise, are social animals. But they also tend to be fiercely tribal and insular to a specific group.

 

[Asclepias]

My point is what I wrote. If most Blacks are millionaires then the economic wealth gap whites enjoy goes away.
No. I am suggesting the US pay what is owed to the descendants of those enslaved due to the US allowing chattel slavery. Isnt that what we are talking about?
Not all Native Americans were Black so I dont understand the deflection?

What makes you think it would be reinvested into

Doesnt matter if modern day people are responsible or not. Again its the US's debt to pay and they pay that with tax dollars. Slavery existing or having existed elsewhere has absolutely nothing to do with this. The US didnt go to war to end slavery. It went to war to keep the south from leaving. We know this because the enslaved were not freed in the Union states until later.

Its our right to go after direct descendants at a later date and time we determine. Whites dont dictate to us when and in what order we should sue for reparations.

The justification is that they are part of the US that benefited from and legalized chattel slavery.

You dont have to offer any apology. Any apology would be hollow and condescending in light of the economic gap that you dont want to address and refuse to believe in.

That money would instantly close the economic gap if paid. Not only that it could go to fund Black K-12 schools and bolster the HBCU's currently in existence. Basically it would be another Black Wall Street before jealous whites burned it to the ground. If you need to understand how money can change a community look at the history of Black Wall Street and other like Black communities before whites destroyed them.

So people should be forced to pay for the crimes of their forbears?

In your last paragraph why do you think reparations would go to any of that? Look at what happens with the typical lottery winner.

Yes they should if they profited from those crimes and others suffered because of those crimes. However, thats not what we are talking about. The US is paying the debt not those individuals. The US is responsible and complicit in those crimes due to the legalizing of chattel slavery.

Not sure what lotto winners have to do with my point? I think it would go that way because its been discussed in the Black community and the consensus is exactly what I stated.

Lottery is an example of what people do when the win large sums of money. Same with rhose who got tax rebates as stimulus. People think individually first, family second..and then tribe or community. I dont see why this would be any different.

Alot of Blacks understand the fallacy of thinking individually in this country. If the Black population here in the US knew most Blacks were getting a large sum of money then they would agree to start working on the community. We know this because this is how we built successful communities in the past.

That was the past. You're dealing with a whole different breed nowadays, as we all are.

Its not just the past. Its the present and future. There are plenty of Blacks like myself that patronize Black businesses before ever going outside our community.

 

[Asclepias]

Yes they should if they profited from those crimes and others suffered because of those crimes. However, thats not what we are talking about. The US is paying the debt not those individuals. The US is responsible and complicit in those crimes due to the legalizing of chattel slavery.

Not sure what lotto winners have to do with my point? I think it would go that way because its been discussed in the Black community and the consensus is exactly what I stated.

Lottery is an example of what people do when the win large sums of money. Same with rhose who got tax rebates as stimulus. People think individually first, family second..and then tribe or community. I dont see why this would be any different.

Alot of Blacks understand the fallacy of thinking individually in this country. If the Black population here in the US knew most Blacks were getting a large sum of money then they would agree to start working on the community. We know this because this is how we built successful communities in the past.

I think you severely underate human nature here. People are individuals first. That is why communism was such a flop, it ignored the "what is in it for me" aspect.

No. People (at least Black people) are by nature social animals. They go crazy without human companionship. Thats why solitary confinement is used as a punishment. Like I was saying. Its not like we are guessing about this. We have proof because we did it in the past.

https://www.theroot.com/the-other-black-wall-streets-1823010812


Communism was massively successful. Its the basis of the first civilizations. Without it the human species would not have survived.

All normal people, black or otherwise, are social animals. But they also tend to be fiercely tribal and insular to a specific group.

Not sure how that means communism was a failure but OK.

 

[Toro]

Is this stupid thread still going on?

 

[Asclepias]

My point is what I wrote. If most Blacks are millionaires then the economic wealth gap whites enjoy goes away.
No. I am suggesting the US pay what is owed to the descendants of those enslaved due to the US allowing chattel slavery. Isnt that what we are talking about?
Not all Native Americans were Black so I dont understand the deflection?

What makes you think it would be reinvested into

Doesnt matter if modern day people are responsible or not. Again its the US's debt to pay and they pay that with tax dollars. Slavery existing or having existed elsewhere has absolutely nothing to do with this. The US didnt go to war to end slavery. It went to war to keep the south from leaving. We know this because the enslaved were not freed in the Union states until later.

Its our right to go after direct descendants at a later date and time we determine. Whites dont dictate to us when and in what order we should sue for reparations.

The justification is that they are part of the US that benefited from and legalized chattel slavery.

You dont have to offer any apology. Any apology would be hollow and condescending in light of the economic gap that you dont want to address and refuse to believe in.

That money would instantly close the economic gap if paid. Not only that it could go to fund Black K-12 schools and bolster the HBCU's currently in existence. Basically it would be another Black Wall Street before jealous whites burned it to the ground. If you need to understand how money can change a community look at the history of Black Wall Street and other like Black communities before whites destroyed them.

So people should be forced to pay for the crimes of their forbears?

In your last paragraph why do you think reparations would go to any of that? Look at what happens with the typical lottery winner.

Yes they should if they profited from those crimes and others suffered because of those crimes. However, thats not what we are talking about. The US is paying the debt not those individuals. The US is responsible and complicit in those crimes due to the legalizing of chattel slavery.

Not sure what lotto winners have to do with my point? I think it would go that way because its been discussed in the Black community and the consensus is exactly what I stated.

There probably isn't a single person living who doesn't have ancestors who committed 'crimes' which caused others to suffer. Whether or not they have profited from the crimes of their ancestors is debatable, of course.

Is there a point at which reparations for slavery would no longer be valid, because too much time/too many generations would have passed? It's currently about 5 generations since the abolition of slavery, if you judge a generation by 30-year increments. At this point, you would have people getting reparations for things done to their great-great-great grandparents. Perhaps that is perfectly acceptable. Would it be fine after 10 generations? 20? Is the time limit (if any) the same for any crimes worthy of reparations, or is it different for each circumstance?

Lottery winners would be a similar situation in which individuals come into a large sum of money suddenly. I assume that is the comparison Coyote was making.

There is a consensus in the black community about how reparations would be used? There are something like 40-50 million blacks living in the US, how many would you say have agreed on how reparations given to individuals would be spent?

I think thats a false equivalency. The closest any other group of people come to experiencing the horrors and atrocities committed by the US are probably the NA's. They are currently getting some reparations. Blacks experienced the atrocity and horrors of slavery for multiple generations without pay.

No. I dont see there being a point where reparations would be invalid. Its pretty much coded in the word reparations. Nowhere is a time limit specified. I know thats what most whites would like. For Blacks to pretend it never happened. The problem is only going to get worse and larger with time. Whites should learn that its not clever or cool to welch on their debts. Whites in the US profited from slavery either directly or indirectly and now theyre against making things right.

Pretty much. We understand as a group that the only way to fight racism is to invest in our own communities. I have never taken an official count. It doesnt work that way with us.

So, the best way to fight racism is with racism. Yet you rail against whites wishing to invest in white communities in order to ensure the economic, social, and intellectual success of those communities.

No the best way to fight racism is concentrate on your own community and build it together. Youve never seen me rail against what whites spend their money on. I could give a shit.

 

[IM2]

Truth is, reparations were already provided for freed slaves immediately following the conclusion of the Civil War. A large swath of real estate was confiscated from Southern landowners and earmarked for distribution to any freed slave who applied for a designated portion thereof. The apportioned land, and subsequent mule, was intended for the freed slave to establish himself and provide for his family. So, the opportunity for economic stability was available. Since the original freed slaves were already provided opportunity to claim some portion of real property "provided" by those assumed to have owned slaves, there is no need to pay descendants of slaves any amount of money, regardless of source.

"Today, we commonly use the phrase "40 acres and a mule," but few of us have read the Order itself. Three of its parts are relevant here. Section one bears repeating in full: "The islands from Charleston, south, the abandoned rice fields along the rivers for thirty miles back from the sea, and the country bordering the St. Johns river, Florida, are reserved and set apart for the settlement of the negroes [sic] now made free by the acts of war and the proclamation of the President of the United States."

Section two specifies that these new communities, moreover, would be governed entirely by black people themselves: " … on the islands, and in the settlements hereafter to be established, no white person whatever, unless military officers and soldiers detailed for duty, will be permitted to reside; and the sole and exclusive management of affairs will be left to the freed people themselves … By the laws of war, and orders of the President of the United States, the negro [sic] is free and must be dealt with as such."

Finally, section three specifies the allocation of land: " … each family shall have a plot of not more than (40) acres of tillable ground, and when it borders on some water channel, with not more than 800 feet water front, in the possession of which land the military authorities will afford them protection, until such time as they can protect themselves, or until Congress shall regulate their title."

With this Order, 400,000 acres of land — "a strip of coastline stretching from Charleston, South Carolina, to the St. John's River in Florida, including Georgia's Sea Islands and the mainland thirty miles in from the coast," as Barton Myers reports — would be redistributed to the newly freed slaves. The extent of this Order and its larger implications are mind-boggling, actually."
https://www.theroot.com/the-truth-behind-40-acres-and-a-mule-1790894780

The one problem with that is in reality very few got the acres and mules in the end.

The offer was there and available to any who would claim it.

Why do some of you whites feel so inclined make shit up? Gallantwarrior is a liar and it's proven by the statement below.

And what happened to this astonishingly visionary program, which would have fundamentally altered the course of American race relations? Andrew Johnson, Lincoln's successor and a sympathizer with the South, overturned the Order in the fall of 1865, and, as Barton Myers sadly concludes, "returned the land along the South Carolina, Georgia and Florida coasts to the planters who had originally owned it" — to the very people who had declared war on the United States of America.

https://www.theroot.com/the-truth-behind-40-acres-and-a-mule-1790894780

 

[gallantwarrior]

What makes you think it would be reinvested into
So people should be forced to pay for the crimes of their forbears?

In your last paragraph why do you think reparations would go to any of that? Look at what happens with the typical lottery winner.

Yes they should if they profited from those crimes and others suffered because of those crimes. However, thats not what we are talking about. The US is paying the debt not those individuals. The US is responsible and complicit in those crimes due to the legalizing of chattel slavery.

Not sure what lotto winners have to do with my point? I think it would go that way because its been discussed in the Black community and the consensus is exactly what I stated.

Lottery is an example of what people do when the win large sums of money. Same with rhose who got tax rebates as stimulus. People think individually first, family second..and then tribe or community. I dont see why this would be any different.

Alot of Blacks understand the fallacy of thinking individually in this country. If the Black population here in the US knew most Blacks were getting a large sum of money then they would agree to start working on the community. We know this because this is how we built successful communities in the past.

That was the past. You're dealing with a whole different breed nowadays, as we all are.

Its not just the past. Its the present and future. There are plenty of Blacks like myself that patronize Black businesses before ever going outside our community.

Understandable, if there are black businesses able to address you needs within the community. I also prefer to patronize local businesses but do not limit myself. Fortunately, I live in a community that includes representatives of many nationalities, races, social groups, etc. I select the businesses I patronize based on references or personal experience, not solely one specific identifier. Unless the community within you reside is predominantly black and you have no other choice, you might be missing better service or products if you use only the skin color of the proprietor as the sole determining factor of your patronage.

 

[gallantwarrior]

What makes you think it would be reinvested into
So people should be forced to pay for the crimes of their forbears?

In your last paragraph why do you think reparations would go to any of that? Look at what happens with the typical lottery winner.

Yes they should if they profited from those crimes and others suffered because of those crimes. However, thats not what we are talking about. The US is paying the debt not those individuals. The US is responsible and complicit in those crimes due to the legalizing of chattel slavery.

Not sure what lotto winners have to do with my point? I think it would go that way because its been discussed in the Black community and the consensus is exactly what I stated.

There probably isn't a single person living who doesn't have ancestors who committed 'crimes' which caused others to suffer. Whether or not they have profited from the crimes of their ancestors is debatable, of course.

Is there a point at which reparations for slavery would no longer be valid, because too much time/too many generations would have passed? It's currently about 5 generations since the abolition of slavery, if you judge a generation by 30-year increments. At this point, you would have people getting reparations for things done to their great-great-great grandparents. Perhaps that is perfectly acceptable. Would it be fine after 10 generations? 20? Is the time limit (if any) the same for any crimes worthy of reparations, or is it different for each circumstance?

Lottery winners would be a similar situation in which individuals come into a large sum of money suddenly. I assume that is the comparison Coyote was making.

There is a consensus in the black community about how reparations would be used? There are something like 40-50 million blacks living in the US, how many would you say have agreed on how reparations given to individuals would be spent?

I think thats a false equivalency. The closest any other group of people come to experiencing the horrors and atrocities committed by the US are probably the NA's. They are currently getting some reparations. Blacks experienced the atrocity and horrors of slavery for multiple generations without pay.

No. I dont see there being a point where reparations would be invalid. Its pretty much coded in the word reparations. Nowhere is a time limit specified. I know thats what most whites would like. For Blacks to pretend it never happened. The problem is only going to get worse and larger with time. Whites should learn that its not clever or cool to welch on their debts. Whites in the US profited from slavery either directly or indirectly and now theyre against making things right.

Pretty much. We understand as a group that the only way to fight racism is to invest in our own communities. I have never taken an official count. It doesnt work that way with us.

So, the best way to fight racism is with racism. Yet you rail against whites wishing to invest in white communities in order to ensure the economic, social, and intellectual success of those communities.

No the best way to fight racism is concentrate on your own community and build it together. Youve never seen me rail against what whites spend their money on. I could give a shit.

Then we agree on this point, also. I much prefer spending my money where I live than supporting Amazon and similar entities. I don't much care who owns, runs, or is employed by a business, as long as I obtain the best service and value for my hard-earned dollar. Up here, building and supporting Native Alaskan communities is a priority among many who live in those communities.

 

[IM2]

That's only the Cobell case and those reparations extend from the Dawes Act of the 1800's. How about the rest of the annual payments to Native American tribes? And blacks are not asking for reparations for being black.

Agreed.. but why do you want to be paid from people that never participated in slavery for something that never happened to you ?

We missed 200 plus years of income that would have dramatically changed things today for blacks because of slavery. It has happened to us. You benefit from it because of the additional wealth whites have been able to gather during that same time period. There are things resulting from slavery that you guys refuse to consider because whites did not have to live with the negative consequences of not being paid for work for over 200 years. To you guys it's simple. you were not slaves why are you asking for reparations for slavery?

So the next time your white ass drives by a black slum, ask yourself, "would this slum exist had blacks been able to earn the trillions they the lost over the 223 years blacks were slaves?"

You make it sound as if wages would have made everything better. The laws and attitudes of the population would still have been a huge problem, wages or not. You've argued that reparations are about far more than just slavery before and I think it sounds more sensible when taken as that whole. Couching it in terms of only the wages slaves did not receive isn't nearly as convincing.

I do understand that this thread is based specifically on slavery and reparations for that.

It's not going to matter what we say to you about this issue. No matter what we show you or the other whites here, you are going to have excuses.

WTF? Did you even read what I posted?

Do you think that if black slaves had been paid wages it would have overcome the racist laws and attitudes of the majority?

Even when someone agrees with you, you try to make it seem like that person is making some sort of excuse.

I read what you posted. Why wouldn't I? Wages would have made a difference and it gets old being told by whites that everything you say can't be only because they think it can't be.

 

[IM2]

Yes they should if they profited from those crimes and others suffered because of those crimes. However, thats not what we are talking about. The US is paying the debt not those individuals. The US is responsible and complicit in those crimes due to the legalizing of chattel slavery.

Not sure what lotto winners have to do with my point? I think it would go that way because its been discussed in the Black community and the consensus is exactly what I stated.

Lottery is an example of what people do when the win large sums of money. Same with rhose who got tax rebates as stimulus. People think individually first, family second..and then tribe or community. I dont see why this would be any different.

Alot of Blacks understand the fallacy of thinking individually in this country. If the Black population here in the US knew most Blacks were getting a large sum of money then they would agree to start working on the community. We know this because this is how we built successful communities in the past.

That was the past. You're dealing with a whole different breed nowadays, as we all are.

Its not just the past. Its the present and future. There are plenty of Blacks like myself that patronize Black businesses before ever going outside our community.

Understandable, if there are black businesses able to address you needs within the community. I also prefer to patronize local businesses but do not limit myself. Fortunately, I live in a community that includes representatives of many nationalities, races, social groups, etc. I select the businesses I patronize based on references or personal experience, not solely one specific identifier. Unless the community within you reside is predominantly black and you have no other choice, you might be missing better service or products if you use only the skin color of the proprietor as the sole determining factor of your patronage.

The same can be said to whites living in white communities that only utilize white businesses.

 

[Montrovant]

Agreed.. but why do you want to be paid from people that never participated in slavery for something that never happened to you ?

We missed 200 plus years of income that would have dramatically changed things today for blacks because of slavery. It has happened to us. You benefit from it because of the additional wealth whites have been able to gather during that same time period. There are things resulting from slavery that you guys refuse to consider because whites did not have to live with the negative consequences of not being paid for work for over 200 years. To you guys it's simple. you were not slaves why are you asking for reparations for slavery?

So the next time your white ass drives by a black slum, ask yourself, "would this slum exist had blacks been able to earn the trillions they the lost over the 223 years blacks were slaves?"

You make it sound as if wages would have made everything better. The laws and attitudes of the population would still have been a huge problem, wages or not. You've argued that reparations are about far more than just slavery before and I think it sounds more sensible when taken as that whole. Couching it in terms of only the wages slaves did not receive isn't nearly as convincing.

I do understand that this thread is based specifically on slavery and reparations for that.

It's not going to matter what we say to you about this issue. No matter what we show you or the other whites here, you are going to have excuses.

WTF? Did you even read what I posted?

Do you think that if black slaves had been paid wages it would have overcome the racist laws and attitudes of the majority?

Even when someone agrees with you, you try to make it seem like that person is making some sort of excuse.

I dont think you quite get the point. No one cares what some random racist white boy thinks or even the majority. Money/economic power is what enabled Blacks to build thriving communities. I dont give shit about what some white boy thinks of my lifestyle. I'm going to do me and teach other Blacks how its done. Economic power is the tool we would use to level the playing field.

I honestly do not understand why you or IM2 are arguing with me on this. My point is that, even if slaves in the US had been paid wages, the legal and social barriers still existed to prevent many or most of them from realizing economic success. I'm not saying it wouldn't have helped, I'm pointing out that when someone is limited in where they can live, work, what they can purchase and where, or who they can associate with based on their skin color, even having money may not be enough.

Arguing with me here seems to be saying that the racist laws and attitudes of the past were not that significant of factors in holding back the advancement and success of blacks; instead, the real factor keeping blacks down has been a lack of capital. That is an...unusual take.

 

[Montrovant]

What makes you think it would be reinvested into
So people should be forced to pay for the crimes of their forbears?

In your last paragraph why do you think reparations would go to any of that? Look at what happens with the typical lottery winner.

Yes they should if they profited from those crimes and others suffered because of those crimes. However, thats not what we are talking about. The US is paying the debt not those individuals. The US is responsible and complicit in those crimes due to the legalizing of chattel slavery.

Not sure what lotto winners have to do with my point? I think it would go that way because its been discussed in the Black community and the consensus is exactly what I stated.

There probably isn't a single person living who doesn't have ancestors who committed 'crimes' which caused others to suffer. Whether or not they have profited from the crimes of their ancestors is debatable, of course.

Is there a point at which reparations for slavery would no longer be valid, because too much time/too many generations would have passed? It's currently about 5 generations since the abolition of slavery, if you judge a generation by 30-year increments. At this point, you would have people getting reparations for things done to their great-great-great grandparents. Perhaps that is perfectly acceptable. Would it be fine after 10 generations? 20? Is the time limit (if any) the same for any crimes worthy of reparations, or is it different for each circumstance?

Lottery winners would be a similar situation in which individuals come into a large sum of money suddenly. I assume that is the comparison Coyote was making.

There is a consensus in the black community about how reparations would be used? There are something like 40-50 million blacks living in the US, how many would you say have agreed on how reparations given to individuals would be spent?

I think thats a false equivalency. The closest any other group of people come to experiencing the horrors and atrocities committed by the US are probably the NA's. They are currently getting some reparations. Blacks experienced the atrocity and horrors of slavery for multiple generations without pay.

No. I dont see there being a point where reparations would be invalid. Its pretty much coded in the word reparations. Nowhere is a time limit specified. I know thats what most whites would like. For Blacks to pretend it never happened. The problem is only going to get worse and larger with time. Whites should learn that its not clever or cool to welch on their debts. Whites in the US profited from slavery either directly or indirectly and now theyre against making things right.

Pretty much. We understand as a group that the only way to fight racism is to invest in our own communities. I have never taken an official count. It doesnt work that way with us.

So, the best way to fight racism is with racism. Yet you rail against whites wishing to invest in white communities in order to ensure the economic, social, and intellectual success of those communities.

No the best way to fight racism is concentrate on your own community and build it together. Youve never seen me rail against what whites spend their money on. I could give a shit.

That doesn't seem to be fighting racism so much as ignoring it.

There's no requirement for anyone to fight racism, I'm not denigrating the idea of building a person's community, it just doesn't seem to be fighting racism.

 

[Montrovant]

Agreed.. but why do you want to be paid from people that never participated in slavery for something that never happened to you ?

We missed 200 plus years of income that would have dramatically changed things today for blacks because of slavery. It has happened to us. You benefit from it because of the additional wealth whites have been able to gather during that same time period. There are things resulting from slavery that you guys refuse to consider because whites did not have to live with the negative consequences of not being paid for work for over 200 years. To you guys it's simple. you were not slaves why are you asking for reparations for slavery?

So the next time your white ass drives by a black slum, ask yourself, "would this slum exist had blacks been able to earn the trillions they the lost over the 223 years blacks were slaves?"

You make it sound as if wages would have made everything better. The laws and attitudes of the population would still have been a huge problem, wages or not. You've argued that reparations are about far more than just slavery before and I think it sounds more sensible when taken as that whole. Couching it in terms of only the wages slaves did not receive isn't nearly as convincing.

I do understand that this thread is based specifically on slavery and reparations for that.

It's not going to matter what we say to you about this issue. No matter what we show you or the other whites here, you are going to have excuses.

WTF? Did you even read what I posted?

Do you think that if black slaves had been paid wages it would have overcome the racist laws and attitudes of the majority?

Even when someone agrees with you, you try to make it seem like that person is making some sort of excuse.

I read what you posted. Why wouldn't I? Wages would have made a difference and it gets old being told by whites that everything you say can't be only because they think it can't be.

Certainly wages would have made a difference, but how much of one, in the face of racist laws and racist attitudes by a large portion of the majority? I'm not saying wages would have been meaningless, I'm just questioning whether they could have overcome the other factors involved.

There's also the question of just what the wages would have entailed, but that's a separate issue in large part.

Oh, and I didn't say anything "can't be." You do that a lot, though, telling people the way things are, that they don't know what they are talking about, can't know this or that, etc.

 

[Montrovant]

Lottery is an example of what people do when the win large sums of money. Same with rhose who got tax rebates as stimulus. People think individually first, family second..and then tribe or community. I dont see why this would be any different.

Alot of Blacks understand the fallacy of thinking individually in this country. If the Black population here in the US knew most Blacks were getting a large sum of money then they would agree to start working on the community. We know this because this is how we built successful communities in the past.

That was the past. You're dealing with a whole different breed nowadays, as we all are.

Its not just the past. Its the present and future. There are plenty of Blacks like myself that patronize Black businesses before ever going outside our community.

Understandable, if there are black businesses able to address you needs within the community. I also prefer to patronize local businesses but do not limit myself. Fortunately, I live in a community that includes representatives of many nationalities, races, social groups, etc. I select the businesses I patronize based on references or personal experience, not solely one specific identifier. Unless the community within you reside is predominantly black and you have no other choice, you might be missing better service or products if you use only the skin color of the proprietor as the sole determining factor of your patronage.

The same can be said to whites living in white communities that only utilize white businesses.

Yep, the same could be said of anyone living in a community made up primarily of a particular race.

I've never used or purchased from a business, or not done so, based on the race of the owner(s). The vast majority of the time, I have no clue who owns a business I deal with, let alone their race.