The value of slavery?

[IM2]

We missed 200 plus years of income that would have dramatically changed things today for blacks because of slavery. It has happened to us. You benefit from it because of the additional wealth whites have been able to gather during that same time period. There are things resulting from slavery that you guys refuse to consider because whites did not have to live with the negative consequences of not being paid for work for over 200 years. To you guys it's simple. you were not slaves why are you asking for reparations for slavery?

So the next time your white ass drives by a black slum, ask yourself, "would this slum exist had blacks been able to earn the trillions they the lost over the 223 years blacks were slaves?"

You make it sound as if wages would have made everything better. The laws and attitudes of the population would still have been a huge problem, wages or not. You've argued that reparations are about far more than just slavery before and I think it sounds more sensible when taken as that whole. Couching it in terms of only the wages slaves did not receive isn't nearly as convincing.

I do understand that this thread is based specifically on slavery and reparations for that.

It's not going to matter what we say to you about this issue. No matter what we show you or the other whites here, you are going to have excuses.

WTF? Did you even read what I posted?

Do you think that if black slaves had been paid wages it would have overcome the racist laws and attitudes of the majority?

Even when someone agrees with you, you try to make it seem like that person is making some sort of excuse.

I dont think you quite get the point. No one cares what some random racist white boy thinks or even the majority. Money/economic power is what enabled Blacks to build thriving communities. I dont give shit about what some white boy thinks of my lifestyle. I'm going to do me and teach other Blacks how its done. Economic power is the tool we would use to level the playing field.

I honestly do not understand why you or IM2 are arguing with me on this. My point is that, even if slaves in the US had been paid wages, the legal and social barriers still existed to prevent many or most of them from realizing economic success. I'm not saying it wouldn't have helped, I'm pointing out that when someone is limited in where they can live, work, what they can purchase and where, or who they can associate with based on their skin color, even having money may not be enough.

Arguing with me here seems to be saying that the racist laws and attitudes of the past were not that significant of factors in holding back the advancement and success of blacks; instead, the real factor keeping blacks down has been a lack of capital. That is an...unusual take.

It was both, and the fact that laws were made so blacks could not earn money seems to be part of he equation you miss. Why is it that whites want to always try telling us about these things? In order for a person to have earned an income it would have meant that whites did not consider blacks as property but as humans. That's a change in attitude that would have existed.

 

[IM2]

Yes they should if they profited from those crimes and others suffered because of those crimes. However, thats not what we are talking about. The US is paying the debt not those individuals. The US is responsible and complicit in those crimes due to the legalizing of chattel slavery.

Not sure what lotto winners have to do with my point? I think it would go that way because its been discussed in the Black community and the consensus is exactly what I stated.

There probably isn't a single person living who doesn't have ancestors who committed 'crimes' which caused others to suffer. Whether or not they have profited from the crimes of their ancestors is debatable, of course.

Is there a point at which reparations for slavery would no longer be valid, because too much time/too many generations would have passed? It's currently about 5 generations since the abolition of slavery, if you judge a generation by 30-year increments. At this point, you would have people getting reparations for things done to their great-great-great grandparents. Perhaps that is perfectly acceptable. Would it be fine after 10 generations? 20? Is the time limit (if any) the same for any crimes worthy of reparations, or is it different for each circumstance?

Lottery winners would be a similar situation in which individuals come into a large sum of money suddenly. I assume that is the comparison Coyote was making.

There is a consensus in the black community about how reparations would be used? There are something like 40-50 million blacks living in the US, how many would you say have agreed on how reparations given to individuals would be spent?

I think thats a false equivalency. The closest any other group of people come to experiencing the horrors and atrocities committed by the US are probably the NA's. They are currently getting some reparations. Blacks experienced the atrocity and horrors of slavery for multiple generations without pay.

No. I dont see there being a point where reparations would be invalid. Its pretty much coded in the word reparations. Nowhere is a time limit specified. I know thats what most whites would like. For Blacks to pretend it never happened. The problem is only going to get worse and larger with time. Whites should learn that its not clever or cool to welch on their debts. Whites in the US profited from slavery either directly or indirectly and now theyre against making things right.

Pretty much. We understand as a group that the only way to fight racism is to invest in our own communities. I have never taken an official count. It doesnt work that way with us.

So, the best way to fight racism is with racism. Yet you rail against whites wishing to invest in white communities in order to ensure the economic, social, and intellectual success of those communities.

No the best way to fight racism is concentrate on your own community and build it together. Youve never seen me rail against what whites spend their money on. I could give a shit.

That doesn't seem to be fighting racism so much as ignoring it.

There's no requirement for anyone to fight racism, I'm not denigrating the idea of building a person's community, it just doesn't seem to be fighting racism.

Actually building the black communiy is fighting racism because of the opportunities that open up for blacks if these communities are fully developed.

 

[Unkotare]

I want restitution from every Black who has ever received public assistance.

Another dumb comment.

Why?
Blacks get my tax dollars for decades and use it at the bar and to buy knives and guns and you want another income stream?

Another dumb comment.

You got your education from Community Meetings and Black websites and you’re calling me dumb?

Actually I have a bachelors and masters degree......

You've mentioned that before, Prime Time.

 

[Montrovant]

There probably isn't a single person living who doesn't have ancestors who committed 'crimes' which caused others to suffer. Whether or not they have profited from the crimes of their ancestors is debatable, of course.

Is there a point at which reparations for slavery would no longer be valid, because too much time/too many generations would have passed? It's currently about 5 generations since the abolition of slavery, if you judge a generation by 30-year increments. At this point, you would have people getting reparations for things done to their great-great-great grandparents. Perhaps that is perfectly acceptable. Would it be fine after 10 generations? 20? Is the time limit (if any) the same for any crimes worthy of reparations, or is it different for each circumstance?

Lottery winners would be a similar situation in which individuals come into a large sum of money suddenly. I assume that is the comparison Coyote was making.

There is a consensus in the black community about how reparations would be used? There are something like 40-50 million blacks living in the US, how many would you say have agreed on how reparations given to individuals would be spent?

I think thats a false equivalency. The closest any other group of people come to experiencing the horrors and atrocities committed by the US are probably the NA's. They are currently getting some reparations. Blacks experienced the atrocity and horrors of slavery for multiple generations without pay.

No. I dont see there being a point where reparations would be invalid. Its pretty much coded in the word reparations. Nowhere is a time limit specified. I know thats what most whites would like. For Blacks to pretend it never happened. The problem is only going to get worse and larger with time. Whites should learn that its not clever or cool to welch on their debts. Whites in the US profited from slavery either directly or indirectly and now theyre against making things right.

Pretty much. We understand as a group that the only way to fight racism is to invest in our own communities. I have never taken an official count. It doesnt work that way with us.

So, the best way to fight racism is with racism. Yet you rail against whites wishing to invest in white communities in order to ensure the economic, social, and intellectual success of those communities.

No the best way to fight racism is concentrate on your own community and build it together. Youve never seen me rail against what whites spend their money on. I could give a shit.

That doesn't seem to be fighting racism so much as ignoring it.

There's no requirement for anyone to fight racism, I'm not denigrating the idea of building a person's community, it just doesn't seem to be fighting racism.

Actually building the black communiy is fighting racism because of the opportunities that open up for blacks if these communities are fully developed.

By fighting racism, do you mean fighting the affect of racism on blacks? I think there may be a bit of a definition disconnect here, once again.

 

[Montrovant]

You make it sound as if wages would have made everything better. The laws and attitudes of the population would still have been a huge problem, wages or not. You've argued that reparations are about far more than just slavery before and I think it sounds more sensible when taken as that whole. Couching it in terms of only the wages slaves did not receive isn't nearly as convincing.

I do understand that this thread is based specifically on slavery and reparations for that.

It's not going to matter what we say to you about this issue. No matter what we show you or the other whites here, you are going to have excuses.

WTF? Did you even read what I posted?

Do you think that if black slaves had been paid wages it would have overcome the racist laws and attitudes of the majority?

Even when someone agrees with you, you try to make it seem like that person is making some sort of excuse.

I dont think you quite get the point. No one cares what some random racist white boy thinks or even the majority. Money/economic power is what enabled Blacks to build thriving communities. I dont give shit about what some white boy thinks of my lifestyle. I'm going to do me and teach other Blacks how its done. Economic power is the tool we would use to level the playing field.

I honestly do not understand why you or IM2 are arguing with me on this. My point is that, even if slaves in the US had been paid wages, the legal and social barriers still existed to prevent many or most of them from realizing economic success. I'm not saying it wouldn't have helped, I'm pointing out that when someone is limited in where they can live, work, what they can purchase and where, or who they can associate with based on their skin color, even having money may not be enough.

Arguing with me here seems to be saying that the racist laws and attitudes of the past were not that significant of factors in holding back the advancement and success of blacks; instead, the real factor keeping blacks down has been a lack of capital. That is an...unusual take.

It was both, and the fact that laws were made so blacks could not earn money seems to be part of he equation you miss. Why is it that whites want to always try telling us about these things? In order for a person to have earned an income it would have meant that whites did not consider blacks as property but as humans. That's a change in attitude that would have existed.

There's certainly an interconnection involved. If the point is that wages being paid also would include a lack of racist laws and attitudes, that's a different proposition. Of course if wages had been paid to slaves, and if the laws were not oppressive, and if the populace at large had a less denigrating opinion of those who were slaves, things would be different. The way it's been presented in recent posts, it sounded as if the big issue that caused problems was simply money, separate from the other issues.

Whites constantly want to try telling blacks about what things? The way blacks were mistreated and oppressed? I thought whites wanted to ignore those things or pretend they didn't happen?

 

[gallantwarrior]

Alot of Blacks understand the fallacy of thinking individually in this country. If the Black population here in the US knew most Blacks were getting a large sum of money then they would agree to start working on the community. We know this because this is how we built successful communities in the past.

That was the past. You're dealing with a whole different breed nowadays, as we all are.

Its not just the past. Its the present and future. There are plenty of Blacks like myself that patronize Black businesses before ever going outside our community.

Understandable, if there are black businesses able to address you needs within the community. I also prefer to patronize local businesses but do not limit myself. Fortunately, I live in a community that includes representatives of many nationalities, races, social groups, etc. I select the businesses I patronize based on references or personal experience, not solely one specific identifier. Unless the community within you reside is predominantly black and you have no other choice, you might be missing better service or products if you use only the skin color of the proprietor as the sole determining factor of your patronage.

The same can be said to whites living in white communities that only utilize white businesses.

Yep, the same could be said of anyone living in a community made up primarily of a particular race.

I've never used or purchased from a business, or not done so, based on the race of the owner(s). The vast majority of the time, I have no clue who owns a business I deal with, let alone their race.

Nor do I care what race, or other PC identifier, the owner or employees of a business may claim. I confess I try to do as much business locally as possible in an attempt to support my community.

 

[IM2]

We missed 200 plus years of income that would have dramatically changed things today for blacks because of slavery. It has happened to us. You benefit from it because of the additional wealth whites have been able to gather during that same time period. There are things resulting from slavery that you guys refuse to consider because whites did not have to live with the negative consequences of not being paid for work for over 200 years. To you guys it's simple. you were not slaves why are you asking for reparations for slavery?

So the next time your white ass drives by a black slum, ask yourself, "would this slum exist had blacks been able to earn the trillions they the lost over the 223 years blacks were slaves?"

You make it sound as if wages would have made everything better. The laws and attitudes of the population would still have been a huge problem, wages or not. You've argued that reparations are about far more than just slavery before and I think it sounds more sensible when taken as that whole. Couching it in terms of only the wages slaves did not receive isn't nearly as convincing.

I do understand that this thread is based specifically on slavery and reparations for that.

It's not going to matter what we say to you about this issue. No matter what we show you or the other whites here, you are going to have excuses.

WTF? Did you even read what I posted?

Do you think that if black slaves had been paid wages it would have overcome the racist laws and attitudes of the majority?

Even when someone agrees with you, you try to make it seem like that person is making some sort of excuse.

I read what you posted. Why wouldn't I? Wages would have made a difference and it gets old being told by whites that everything you say can't be only because they think it can't be.

Certainly wages would have made a difference, but how much of one, in the face of racist laws and racist attitudes by a large portion of the majority? I'm not saying wages would have been meaningless, I'm just questioning whether they could have overcome the other factors involved.

There's also the question of just what the wages would have entailed, but that's a separate issue in large part.

Oh, and I didn't say anything "can't be." You do that a lot, though, telling people the way things are, that they don't know what they are talking about, can't know this or that, etc.

Yes I do say those things because what is said to me shows this is the case. You white people here aren't arguing this issue based on reality. Reparations have been paid. Like A says, there is precedent for it. You continue paying NA descendants for things that happened before you were born. Some of the people here talk about Africans selling each other as an excuse to oppose reparations but say nothing about the Native Americans who helped whites find others to capture and help whites defeat Native Americans tribes. So when you guys oppose our claims based on these arguments you show the lack of knowledge on the issue from whites here.

The attitudes of those times aren't relevant here, the fact blacks lost a huge amount of money is. There were the few free blacks then who had businesses. So if all blacks had been able to earn money, or were given headrights and the same economic assistance whites got, things would have been different.

There are things blacks have endured only for being black that whites haven't had to. So how would you know about how it feels or what it can do to a person? You guys consistently make comments about blacks that I know from being black that just are not so. So that's why I say you don't know what you are talking about. You have questioned everything we have presented as if only your opinion can be correct, when in fact your opinion is the least correct between the 3 of us, meaning A, me and you. So until you and the rest here can understand blacks are fully capable of understanding and presenting causes and solutions for issues affecting us and that we aren't always challenged with comments about how we don't represent all blacks because we don't have your opinion on issues as if your opinions are the ones most blacks will agree with, or get the 20 questions game you whites don't do to each other on this or anything else as it pertains to issues confronting blacks, this is what you are going to get from me.

 

[IM2]

It's not going to matter what we say to you about this issue. No matter what we show you or the other whites here, you are going to have excuses.

WTF? Did you even read what I posted?

Do you think that if black slaves had been paid wages it would have overcome the racist laws and attitudes of the majority?

Even when someone agrees with you, you try to make it seem like that person is making some sort of excuse.

I dont think you quite get the point. No one cares what some random racist white boy thinks or even the majority. Money/economic power is what enabled Blacks to build thriving communities. I dont give shit about what some white boy thinks of my lifestyle. I'm going to do me and teach other Blacks how its done. Economic power is the tool we would use to level the playing field.

I honestly do not understand why you or IM2 are arguing with me on this. My point is that, even if slaves in the US had been paid wages, the legal and social barriers still existed to prevent many or most of them from realizing economic success. I'm not saying it wouldn't have helped, I'm pointing out that when someone is limited in where they can live, work, what they can purchase and where, or who they can associate with based on their skin color, even having money may not be enough.

Arguing with me here seems to be saying that the racist laws and attitudes of the past were not that significant of factors in holding back the advancement and success of blacks; instead, the real factor keeping blacks down has been a lack of capital. That is an...unusual take.

It was both, and the fact that laws were made so blacks could not earn money seems to be part of he equation you miss. Why is it that whites want to always try telling us about these things? In order for a person to have earned an income it would have meant that whites did not consider blacks as property but as humans. That's a change in attitude that would have existed.

There's certainly an interconnection involved. If the point is that wages being paid also would include a lack of racist laws and attitudes, that's a different proposition. Of course if wages had been paid to slaves, and if the laws were not oppressive, and if the populace at large had a less denigrating opinion of those who were slaves, things would be different. The way it's been presented in recent posts, it sounded as if the big issue that caused problems was simply money, separate from the other issues.

Whites constantly want to try telling blacks about what things? The way blacks were mistreated and oppressed? I thought whites wanted to ignore those things or pretend they didn't happen?

Montrovant, just as you are trying to tell us about wages being paid including the lack of racist laws, this us an example of how you whites here think you can tell us about everything. You saw what you wanted to see in this because you are looking for reasons to oppose reparations. The reason lost wages was bought up was to allow you to understand why we have a fucking valid case for reparations. The other stuff you present are even further validations of the human rights violations associated with the request for reparations.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Why should people who weren't around back then be held responsible for something? Aren't Africans who enslaved Africans and then sold them into slavery responsible?

Why are you still paying Native Americans for shit you weren't around for? Study how things really happened in Africa in detail for a few years then come back and ask that last question.

Because I have no say in the matter. And they are being paid for land mismanagement, not for being NA.

That's only the Cobell case and those reparations extend from the Dawes Act of the 1800's. How about the rest of the annual payments to Native American tribes? And blacks are not asking for reparations for being black.

Agreed.. but why do you want to be paid from people that never participated in slavery for something that never happened to you ?

We missed 200 plus years of income that would have dramatically changed things today for blacks because of slavery. It has happened to us. You benefit from it because of the additional wealth whites have been able to gather during that same time period. There are things resulting from slavery that you guys refuse to consider because whites did not have to live with the negative consequences of not being paid for work for over 200 years. To you guys it's simple. you were not slaves why are you asking for reparations for slavery?

So the next time your white ass drives by a black slum, ask yourself, "would this slum exist had blacks been able to earn the trillions they the lost over the 223 years blacks were slaves?"

B.S. My family came here from England in the late 19th century with NOTHING. And we've all done fairly well.

 

[Montrovant]

WTF? Did you even read what I posted?

Do you think that if black slaves had been paid wages it would have overcome the racist laws and attitudes of the majority?

Even when someone agrees with you, you try to make it seem like that person is making some sort of excuse.

I dont think you quite get the point. No one cares what some random racist white boy thinks or even the majority. Money/economic power is what enabled Blacks to build thriving communities. I dont give shit about what some white boy thinks of my lifestyle. I'm going to do me and teach other Blacks how its done. Economic power is the tool we would use to level the playing field.

I honestly do not understand why you or IM2 are arguing with me on this. My point is that, even if slaves in the US had been paid wages, the legal and social barriers still existed to prevent many or most of them from realizing economic success. I'm not saying it wouldn't have helped, I'm pointing out that when someone is limited in where they can live, work, what they can purchase and where, or who they can associate with based on their skin color, even having money may not be enough.

Arguing with me here seems to be saying that the racist laws and attitudes of the past were not that significant of factors in holding back the advancement and success of blacks; instead, the real factor keeping blacks down has been a lack of capital. That is an...unusual take.

It was both, and the fact that laws were made so blacks could not earn money seems to be part of he equation you miss. Why is it that whites want to always try telling us about these things? In order for a person to have earned an income it would have meant that whites did not consider blacks as property but as humans. That's a change in attitude that would have existed.

There's certainly an interconnection involved. If the point is that wages being paid also would include a lack of racist laws and attitudes, that's a different proposition. Of course if wages had been paid to slaves, and if the laws were not oppressive, and if the populace at large had a less denigrating opinion of those who were slaves, things would be different. The way it's been presented in recent posts, it sounded as if the big issue that caused problems was simply money, separate from the other issues.

Whites constantly want to try telling blacks about what things? The way blacks were mistreated and oppressed? I thought whites wanted to ignore those things or pretend they didn't happen?

Montrovant, just as you are trying to tell us about wages being paid including the lack of racist laws, this us an example of how you whites here think you can tell us about everything. You saw what you wanted to see in this because you are looking for reasons to oppose reparations. The reason lost wages was bought up was to allow you to understand why we have a fucking valid case for reparations. The other stuff you present are even further validations of the human rights violations associated with the request for reparations.

I'm not looking for a reason to oppose reparations for slavery.

All I was doing was pointing out that wages alone likely would not have been enough to allow blacks to have an equal, or even a positive, footing in the country. You for some reason found that offensive or inaccurate. You seem to have a habit of taking any sort of disagreement with any point as disagreement with the entirety of your position.

 

[Asclepias]

Yes they should if they profited from those crimes and others suffered because of those crimes. However, thats not what we are talking about. The US is paying the debt not those individuals. The US is responsible and complicit in those crimes due to the legalizing of chattel slavery.

Not sure what lotto winners have to do with my point? I think it would go that way because its been discussed in the Black community and the consensus is exactly what I stated.

Lottery is an example of what people do when the win large sums of money. Same with rhose who got tax rebates as stimulus. People think individually first, family second..and then tribe or community. I dont see why this would be any different.

Alot of Blacks understand the fallacy of thinking individually in this country. If the Black population here in the US knew most Blacks were getting a large sum of money then they would agree to start working on the community. We know this because this is how we built successful communities in the past.

That was the past. You're dealing with a whole different breed nowadays, as we all are.

Its not just the past. Its the present and future. There are plenty of Blacks like myself that patronize Black businesses before ever going outside our community.

Understandable, if there are black businesses able to address you needs within the community. I also prefer to patronize local businesses but do not limit myself. Fortunately, I live in a community that includes representatives of many nationalities, races, social groups, etc. I select the businesses I patronize based on references or personal experience, not solely one specific identifier. Unless the community within you reside is predominantly black and you have no other choice, you might be missing better service or products if you use only the skin color of the proprietor as the sole determining factor of your patronage.

I disagree. I dont have a problem with spending more money to get an item from a Black business even if its all the way across the country. The internet has given me access to products created by Black people and owned by Black people. My money is held in a Black bank. All of my personal care items are provided by Black businesses even my toilet paper. I understand what you are saying about service or quality of product. So far I havent had any issues. If I had a problem with service or quality I would try to work with the Black business instead of just dropping it like I would a non Black business. I understand as other Black people should understand that in some instances we may need to take a few steps and sacrifice so we can move ahead as a group.

 

[Asclepias]

We missed 200 plus years of income that would have dramatically changed things today for blacks because of slavery. It has happened to us. You benefit from it because of the additional wealth whites have been able to gather during that same time period. There are things resulting from slavery that you guys refuse to consider because whites did not have to live with the negative consequences of not being paid for work for over 200 years. To you guys it's simple. you were not slaves why are you asking for reparations for slavery?

So the next time your white ass drives by a black slum, ask yourself, "would this slum exist had blacks been able to earn the trillions they the lost over the 223 years blacks were slaves?"

You make it sound as if wages would have made everything better. The laws and attitudes of the population would still have been a huge problem, wages or not. You've argued that reparations are about far more than just slavery before and I think it sounds more sensible when taken as that whole. Couching it in terms of only the wages slaves did not receive isn't nearly as convincing.

I do understand that this thread is based specifically on slavery and reparations for that.

It's not going to matter what we say to you about this issue. No matter what we show you or the other whites here, you are going to have excuses.

WTF? Did you even read what I posted?

Do you think that if black slaves had been paid wages it would have overcome the racist laws and attitudes of the majority?

Even when someone agrees with you, you try to make it seem like that person is making some sort of excuse.

I dont think you quite get the point. No one cares what some random racist white boy thinks or even the majority. Money/economic power is what enabled Blacks to build thriving communities. I dont give shit about what some white boy thinks of my lifestyle. I'm going to do me and teach other Blacks how its done. Economic power is the tool we would use to level the playing field.

I honestly do not understand why you or IM2 are arguing with me on this. My point is that, even if slaves in the US had been paid wages, the legal and social barriers still existed to prevent many or most of them from realizing economic success. I'm not saying it wouldn't have helped, I'm pointing out that when someone is limited in where they can live, work, what they can purchase and where, or who they can associate with based on their skin color, even having money may not be enough.

Arguing with me here seems to be saying that the racist laws and attitudes of the past were not that significant of factors in holding back the advancement and success of blacks; instead, the real factor keeping blacks down has been a lack of capital. That is an...unusual take.

We built thriving communities even with those racist laws and attitudes is what I am trying to point out to you. In spite of all the white AA, in spite of all the racist laws, in spite of everything whites did to hold us down we still came up to the point they got jealous and burned these communities to the ground. I'm not arguing with you. I am opening your eyes to the fallacy of what you are saying.

 

[Asclepias]

Yes they should if they profited from those crimes and others suffered because of those crimes. However, thats not what we are talking about. The US is paying the debt not those individuals. The US is responsible and complicit in those crimes due to the legalizing of chattel slavery.

Not sure what lotto winners have to do with my point? I think it would go that way because its been discussed in the Black community and the consensus is exactly what I stated.

There probably isn't a single person living who doesn't have ancestors who committed 'crimes' which caused others to suffer. Whether or not they have profited from the crimes of their ancestors is debatable, of course.

Is there a point at which reparations for slavery would no longer be valid, because too much time/too many generations would have passed? It's currently about 5 generations since the abolition of slavery, if you judge a generation by 30-year increments. At this point, you would have people getting reparations for things done to their great-great-great grandparents. Perhaps that is perfectly acceptable. Would it be fine after 10 generations? 20? Is the time limit (if any) the same for any crimes worthy of reparations, or is it different for each circumstance?

Lottery winners would be a similar situation in which individuals come into a large sum of money suddenly. I assume that is the comparison Coyote was making.

There is a consensus in the black community about how reparations would be used? There are something like 40-50 million blacks living in the US, how many would you say have agreed on how reparations given to individuals would be spent?

I think thats a false equivalency. The closest any other group of people come to experiencing the horrors and atrocities committed by the US are probably the NA's. They are currently getting some reparations. Blacks experienced the atrocity and horrors of slavery for multiple generations without pay.

No. I dont see there being a point where reparations would be invalid. Its pretty much coded in the word reparations. Nowhere is a time limit specified. I know thats what most whites would like. For Blacks to pretend it never happened. The problem is only going to get worse and larger with time. Whites should learn that its not clever or cool to welch on their debts. Whites in the US profited from slavery either directly or indirectly and now theyre against making things right.

Pretty much. We understand as a group that the only way to fight racism is to invest in our own communities. I have never taken an official count. It doesnt work that way with us.

So, the best way to fight racism is with racism. Yet you rail against whites wishing to invest in white communities in order to ensure the economic, social, and intellectual success of those communities.

No the best way to fight racism is concentrate on your own community and build it together. Youve never seen me rail against what whites spend their money on. I could give a shit.

That doesn't seem to be fighting racism so much as ignoring it.

There's no requirement for anyone to fight racism, I'm not denigrating the idea of building a person's community, it just doesn't seem to be fighting racism.

I cant convince people to not support racism. I am of the opinion that whites will always support racism simply because it gives them an advantage. This is the same thing Drumpf knows. While white people make all this noise about him you have to remember that the vast majority of people that voted for him were whites.

Making sure Black people are economically empowered fights the effects of racism. Until Blacks control the system that pretty much all the fighting one can do.

 

[IM2]

There probably isn't a single person living who doesn't have ancestors who committed 'crimes' which caused others to suffer. Whether or not they have profited from the crimes of their ancestors is debatable, of course.

Is there a point at which reparations for slavery would no longer be valid, because too much time/too many generations would have passed? It's currently about 5 generations since the abolition of slavery, if you judge a generation by 30-year increments. At this point, you would have people getting reparations for things done to their great-great-great grandparents. Perhaps that is perfectly acceptable. Would it be fine after 10 generations? 20? Is the time limit (if any) the same for any crimes worthy of reparations, or is it different for each circumstance?

Lottery winners would be a similar situation in which individuals come into a large sum of money suddenly. I assume that is the comparison Coyote was making.

There is a consensus in the black community about how reparations would be used? There are something like 40-50 million blacks living in the US, how many would you say have agreed on how reparations given to individuals would be spent?

I think thats a false equivalency. The closest any other group of people come to experiencing the horrors and atrocities committed by the US are probably the NA's. They are currently getting some reparations. Blacks experienced the atrocity and horrors of slavery for multiple generations without pay.

No. I dont see there being a point where reparations would be invalid. Its pretty much coded in the word reparations. Nowhere is a time limit specified. I know thats what most whites would like. For Blacks to pretend it never happened. The problem is only going to get worse and larger with time. Whites should learn that its not clever or cool to welch on their debts. Whites in the US profited from slavery either directly or indirectly and now theyre against making things right.

Pretty much. We understand as a group that the only way to fight racism is to invest in our own communities. I have never taken an official count. It doesnt work that way with us.

So, the best way to fight racism is with racism. Yet you rail against whites wishing to invest in white communities in order to ensure the economic, social, and intellectual success of those communities.

No the best way to fight racism is concentrate on your own community and build it together. Youve never seen me rail against what whites spend their money on. I could give a shit.

That doesn't seem to be fighting racism so much as ignoring it.

There's no requirement for anyone to fight racism, I'm not denigrating the idea of building a person's community, it just doesn't seem to be fighting racism.

I cant convince people to not support racism. I am of the opinion that whites will always support racism simply because it gives them an advantage. This is the same thing Drumpf knows. While white people make all this noise about him you have to remember that the vast majority of people that voted for him were whites.

Making sure Black people are economically empowered fights the effects of racism. Until Blacks control the system that pretty much all the fighting one can do.

Here lies the problem with whites. The never ending excuses. You can convince people not to support racism. Whites were convinced to be racists. If you read Lerone Bennetts "The Road Not Taken", you see how whites were convinced to support racsim. In the same way, they can be unconvinced.

 

[IM2]

Against the deliberate evasion and enshrouding of the truth, Lerone Bennett, Jr. was among the first scholars to survey Black history and lay bare the roots of racism. This Black historian and longtime editor of Ebony magazine spent a lifetime fighting the racist rewrite of history. In his landmark The Shaping of Black America, he wrote:

In the beginning, as we have seen, there was no race problem in America. The race problem in America was a deliberate invention of men who systematically separated blacks and whites in order to make money. Back there, before Jim Crow, before the invention of the Negro or the white man or the words and concepts to describe them, the Colonial population consisted largely of a great mass of white and black bondsmen, who occupied roughly the same economic category and were treated with equal contempt by the lords of the plantations and legislatures. Curiously unconcerned about their color, these people worked together and relaxed together. They had essentially the same interests, the same aspirations, and the same grievances. They conspired together and waged a common struggle against their common enemy – the big planter apparatus and a social system that legalized terror against black and white bondsmen.

In “The Road Not Taken,” a groundbreaking chapter from this book, Bennett demonstrates that race and racism were created by a vulnerable and outnumbered ruling class elite facing the prospect of multiracial working class rebellion. He chronicles over a century of deliberate use of state power, both legislative and violent, to define and separate Black and white.

Lerone Bennett, Jr., 1928-2018 A lifetime of anti-racist myth-busting - Challenge Newspaper - The Revolutionary Communist Progressive Labor Party

 

[Coyote]

Lottery is an example of what people do when the win large sums of money. Same with rhose who got tax rebates as stimulus. People think individually first, family second..and then tribe or community. I dont see why this would be any different.

Alot of Blacks understand the fallacy of thinking individually in this country. If the Black population here in the US knew most Blacks were getting a large sum of money then they would agree to start working on the community. We know this because this is how we built successful communities in the past.

That was the past. You're dealing with a whole different breed nowadays, as we all are.

Its not just the past. Its the present and future. There are plenty of Blacks like myself that patronize Black businesses before ever going outside our community.

Understandable, if there are black businesses able to address you needs within the community. I also prefer to patronize local businesses but do not limit myself. Fortunately, I live in a community that includes representatives of many nationalities, races, social groups, etc. I select the businesses I patronize based on references or personal experience, not solely one specific identifier. Unless the community within you reside is predominantly black and you have no other choice, you might be missing better service or products if you use only the skin color of the proprietor as the sole determining factor of your patronage.

I disagree. I dont have a problem with spending more money to get an item from a Black business even if its all the way across the country. The internet has given me access to products created by Black people and owned by Black people. My money is held in a Black bank. All of my personal care items are provided by Black businesses even my toilet paper. I understand what you are saying about service or quality of product. So far I havent had any issues. If I had a problem with service or quality I would try to work with the Black business instead of just dropping it like I would a non Black business. I understand as other Black people should understand that in some instances we may need to take a few steps and sacrifice so we can move ahead as a group.

That's the great thing about this country. We're free to support what we wish - whether it's minority owned business', green business' or local economies.

But are they are group? Isn't that the mistake the Dems make? Assuming they are one voting block? Don't their needs and goals vary like white people? What I support is completely different than what whites in rural Alabama support.

The Diversity Of Black Political Views

 

[Coyote]

I think thats a false equivalency. The closest any other group of people come to experiencing the horrors and atrocities committed by the US are probably the NA's. They are currently getting some reparations. Blacks experienced the atrocity and horrors of slavery for multiple generations without pay.

No. I dont see there being a point where reparations would be invalid. Its pretty much coded in the word reparations. Nowhere is a time limit specified. I know thats what most whites would like. For Blacks to pretend it never happened. The problem is only going to get worse and larger with time. Whites should learn that its not clever or cool to welch on their debts. Whites in the US profited from slavery either directly or indirectly and now theyre against making things right.

Pretty much. We understand as a group that the only way to fight racism is to invest in our own communities. I have never taken an official count. It doesnt work that way with us.

So, the best way to fight racism is with racism. Yet you rail against whites wishing to invest in white communities in order to ensure the economic, social, and intellectual success of those communities.

No the best way to fight racism is concentrate on your own community and build it together. Youve never seen me rail against what whites spend their money on. I could give a shit.

That doesn't seem to be fighting racism so much as ignoring it.

There's no requirement for anyone to fight racism, I'm not denigrating the idea of building a person's community, it just doesn't seem to be fighting racism.

I cant convince people to not support racism. I am of the opinion that whites will always support racism simply because it gives them an advantage. This is the same thing Drumpf knows. While white people make all this noise about him you have to remember that the vast majority of people that voted for him were whites.

Making sure Black people are economically empowered fights the effects of racism. Until Blacks control the system that pretty much all the fighting one can do.

Here lies the problem with whites. The never ending excuses. You can convince people not to support racism. Whites were convinced to be racists. If you read Lerone Bennetts "The Road Not Taken", you see how whites were convinced to support racsim. In the same way, they can be unconvinced.

Which whites are those?

 

[Coyote]

There probably isn't a single person living who doesn't have ancestors who committed 'crimes' which caused others to suffer. Whether or not they have profited from the crimes of their ancestors is debatable, of course.

Is there a point at which reparations for slavery would no longer be valid, because too much time/too many generations would have passed? It's currently about 5 generations since the abolition of slavery, if you judge a generation by 30-year increments. At this point, you would have people getting reparations for things done to their great-great-great grandparents. Perhaps that is perfectly acceptable. Would it be fine after 10 generations? 20? Is the time limit (if any) the same for any crimes worthy of reparations, or is it different for each circumstance?

Lottery winners would be a similar situation in which individuals come into a large sum of money suddenly. I assume that is the comparison Coyote was making.

There is a consensus in the black community about how reparations would be used? There are something like 40-50 million blacks living in the US, how many would you say have agreed on how reparations given to individuals would be spent?

I think thats a false equivalency. The closest any other group of people come to experiencing the horrors and atrocities committed by the US are probably the NA's. They are currently getting some reparations. Blacks experienced the atrocity and horrors of slavery for multiple generations without pay.

No. I dont see there being a point where reparations would be invalid. Its pretty much coded in the word reparations. Nowhere is a time limit specified. I know thats what most whites would like. For Blacks to pretend it never happened. The problem is only going to get worse and larger with time. Whites should learn that its not clever or cool to welch on their debts. Whites in the US profited from slavery either directly or indirectly and now theyre against making things right.

Pretty much. We understand as a group that the only way to fight racism is to invest in our own communities. I have never taken an official count. It doesnt work that way with us.

So, the best way to fight racism is with racism. Yet you rail against whites wishing to invest in white communities in order to ensure the economic, social, and intellectual success of those communities.

No the best way to fight racism is concentrate on your own community and build it together. Youve never seen me rail against what whites spend their money on. I could give a shit.

That doesn't seem to be fighting racism so much as ignoring it.

There's no requirement for anyone to fight racism, I'm not denigrating the idea of building a person's community, it just doesn't seem to be fighting racism.

I cant convince people to not support racism. I am of the opinion that whites will always support racism simply because it gives them an advantage. This is the same thing Drumpf knows. While white people make all this noise about him you have to remember that the vast majority of people that voted for him were whites.

Making sure Black people are economically empowered fights the effects of racism. Until Blacks control the system that pretty much all the fighting one can do.

When you say whites will always support racism...are you any different than those who spout off crime stats whenever race comes up? Aren't you lumping all whites together as if race is the only meaningful issue?

 

[Coyote]

Bullshit comparison. You compate slavery to wage labor?

Then conduct a seance and discuss the matter with their ancestors.

Why? Comparing slavery to free labor is like comparing concentration camps to immigrsnt detainment centers. False moral equivalency.

Who said the labor was free?
Does your local Walmat feed, clothe and house their employees?

Substandard food, forced breeding, brutal whippings, substandard housing and white male right to rape...sounds like the owners took far more than labor. I had no idea thete were slavery deniers like there are holocast deniers. That is a new one.

Just like most Black areas today with all of their freedoms going to waste.
I’m not denying slavery; I’m denying the revisionist view of it lying only on all White people and asking why they haven’t taken advantage of the opportunity to catch up.

Exactly what "revisionist view" are you talking about? You're comparing it to wage labor...disregarding the very elemental fact of liberty.

 

[Asclepias]

Alot of Blacks understand the fallacy of thinking individually in this country. If the Black population here in the US knew most Blacks were getting a large sum of money then they would agree to start working on the community. We know this because this is how we built successful communities in the past.

That was the past. You're dealing with a whole different breed nowadays, as we all are.

Its not just the past. Its the present and future. There are plenty of Blacks like myself that patronize Black businesses before ever going outside our community.

Understandable, if there are black businesses able to address you needs within the community. I also prefer to patronize local businesses but do not limit myself. Fortunately, I live in a community that includes representatives of many nationalities, races, social groups, etc. I select the businesses I patronize based on references or personal experience, not solely one specific identifier. Unless the community within you reside is predominantly black and you have no other choice, you might be missing better service or products if you use only the skin color of the proprietor as the sole determining factor of your patronage.

I disagree. I dont have a problem with spending more money to get an item from a Black business even if its all the way across the country. The internet has given me access to products created by Black people and owned by Black people. My money is held in a Black bank. All of my personal care items are provided by Black businesses even my toilet paper. I understand what you are saying about service or quality of product. So far I havent had any issues. If I had a problem with service or quality I would try to work with the Black business instead of just dropping it like I would a non Black business. I understand as other Black people should understand that in some instances we may need to take a few steps and sacrifice so we can move ahead as a group.

That's the great thing about this country. We're free to support what we wish - whether it's minority owned business', green business' or local economies.

But are they are group? Isn't that the mistake the Dems make? Assuming they are one voting block? Don't their needs and goals vary like white people? What I support is completely different than what whites in rural Alabama support.

The Diversity Of Black Political Views

The mistake the Dems have made is not fulfilling their promises in a speedy manner or sometimes not at all. I dont have a problem with Blacks being one voting bloc. Thats how you concentrate and wield political power. Not all Blacks have the same view just like any other race. However if they wish to see real significant change some of those views have to be put to the side in order to concentrate power.