The Rise of the Liberal Hawks

[pknopp]

I asked you why you gave him no credibility on the issue. Why did you not answer the question?

I'm still waiting on him to release the birth certificate he said he had. As I noted, back then I didn't give Trump much thought.

 

[Hellokitty]

I suspect..as a veteran..that the military never thought that we were anything BUT great.
The military rejects the idea of turning back the clock to 1960.
Just saying...some think that if there is a civil war the military would be a MAGA asset...and they are simply wrong~

Right the US military lead by democrats would be no different than the Russian/Ukrainian military in shooting their own, I think we all can acknowledge that.

 

[Correll]

I'm still waiting on him to release the birth certificate he said he had. As I noted, back then I didn't give Trump much thought.

Yes, you said that. I asked why.

 

[pknopp]

Yes, you said that. I asked why.

I don't give TV personalities much thought.

I put Trump in the same category as Vermin Supreme.

 

[Correll]

I don't give TV personalities much thought.

I put Trump in the same category as Vermin Supreme.

So, you are refusing to answer. You started this back and forth, and continue to response but refuse to answer a simple questtion.

Seriously. We have now derailed the thread. Thanks buddy. I actually WANTED to move the discussion forward, I had a point to make, but you stonewalled.


We are done here.

 

[pknopp]

So, you are refusing to answer. You started this back and forth, and continue to response but refuse to answer a simple questtion.

Seriously. We have now derailed the thread. Thanks buddy. I actually WANTED to move the discussion forward, I had a point to make, but you stonewalled.


We are done here.

LOL............you asked why I gave Trump no credibility on his birtherism?

I gave a clear answer. I thought as much on it as I do Vermin Supreme promising everyone a pony.

 

[Indeependent]

Actually dufus..the Atlantic--not that you think it's any better.,or that you would actually read it first before jerking your knee...LOL!

Based on what I see on YouTube, Quora and TikTok, which are no less valid than the Left Wing Press, they couldn't be more full of crap.

 

[Indeependent]

Actually dufus..the Atlantic--not that you think it's any better.,or that you would actually read it first before jerking your knee...LOL!

I suggest you look at the entire Link.

 

[EvilEyeFleegle]

I suggest you look at the entire Link.

I suggest that you read the ENTIRE article--I used the MSN link to avoid the Atlantic paywall.

But, for you, knowing how you'll just leap to read it

The Rise of the Liberal Hawks

They picked the right side.

www.theatlantic.com

 

[Indeependent]

I suggest that you read the ENTIRE article--I used the MSN link to avoid the Atlantic paywall.

I don't need to.
People join the military for one of two reasons.
1 joins because he loves the US and can kick this shit of the 100 who joined the military for an education or a pension.

 

[Mushroom]

Excellent article detailing the military's shift to the Left after Trump. It's long and i imagine that most won't actually read the whole thing--but it clearly shows why MAGA has no influence in our armed forces.

It is an opinion piece.

And by and large, the military has never really cared who was in office. So long as they can still train and get their equipment fixed, it almost never makes any difference no matter what individual or party is in office.

 

[Mushroom]

We were already involved in Syria when Trump took office. Does no one pay any attention to anything?

Of course not, they are too busy trying to push a political agenda to bother with something as silly as "facts".

Like how we are still in former Yugoslavia, three decades after we first went in under President Bush.

But for some reason, nobody seems to give a damn about the "exit strategy" from there. Yet another meaningless political statement.

 

[whitehall]

As usual the left has it backwards. The Military doesn't shift to the left during democrat administrations, the left shifts to the Military and the military is stuck with it.. The concept is not unusual when you consider the hundred year old relationship between the democrat party and the media. Every military conflict in the 20th century from WW1 to Vietnam happened during a democrat administration and was overwhelmingly supported by the media until it went bad and they blamed it on republicans.

 

[pknopp]

As usual the left has it backwards. The Military doesn't shift to the left during democrat administrations, the left shifts to the Military and the military is stuck with it.. The concept is not unusual when you consider the hundred year old relationship between the democrat party and the media. Every military conflict in the 20th century from WW1 to Vietnam happened during a democrat administration and was overwhelmingly supported by the media until it went bad and they blamed it on republicans.

Eisenhower got us involved in Vietnam.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Once again, people conflate the terms liberal, left and democrat.

I do not respect any article so severely lacking in political acumen that it does just that.

 

[Mushroom]

Eisenhower got us involved in Vietnam.

Under the 1954 Geneva Conference, where the US agreed to aid and support South Vietnam, and the USSR agreed to aid and support North Vietnam.

And that "involvement" was training, and some surplus equipment from WWII. During his entire time in office, the number of US military personnel in South Vietnam was never more than 900 people.

It was Kennedy then later Johnson that turned it into a full scale war.

Vietnam War Allied Troop Levels 1960-73

It ballooned to over 16,000 under Kennedy, then over 53,000 under Johnson.

Prior to 1961, it was known as MAAGV, or "Military Assistance Advisory Group - Vietnam". And we had dozens of such operations at the time. Ranging from Greece and Philippines to South Korea, ROC and Thailand. Generally a few hundred subject matter experts who's job it was to train the other nation how to organize their military, fight, and use the equipment we gave or sold them.

It was under President Kennedy that the mission changed from just advising to actual fighting. And in recognition, it was changed from MAAGV to MACV, or "Military Assistance Command - Vietnam".

 

[pknopp]

Under the 1954 Geneva Conference, where the US agreed to aid and support South Vietnam, and the USSR agreed to aid and support North Vietnam.

And that "involvement" was training, and some surplus equipment from WWII. During his entire time in office, the number of US military personnel in South Vietnam was never more than 900 people.

It was Kennedy then later Johnson that turned it into a full scale war.

Vietnam War Allied Troop Levels 1960-73

It ballooned to over 16,000 under Kennedy, then over 53,000 under Johnson.

Prior to 1961, it was known as MAAGV, or "Military Assistance Advisory Group - Vietnam". And we had dozens of such operations at the time. Ranging from Greece and Philippines to South Korea, ROC and Thailand. Generally a few hundred subject matter experts who's job it was to train the other nation how to organize their military, fight, and use the equipment we gave or sold them.

It was under President Kennedy that the mission changed from just advising to actual fighting. And in recognition, it was changed from MAAGV to MACV, or "Military Assistance Command - Vietnam".

It always starts with "training" and "advising".

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Excellent article detailing the military's shift to the Left after Trump. It's long and i imagine that most won't actually read the whole thing--but it clearly shows why MAGA has no influence in our armed forces.

MSN

Brief quote:

In 1967, Martin Luther King Jr. spoke at Harlem’s Riverside Church to a crowd of thousands that flowed out the door as far as 120th Street. King publicly condemned the Vietnam War because it had “broken and eviscerated” the civil-rights and anti-poverty movements at home. The American government was “the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today.”
In 2022, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky invoked another MLK speech while asking Congress to help his country repel the Russian invasion. “‘I have a dream.’ These words are known to each of you today. I can say, ‘I have a need: I need to protect our sky.’” Two months later, Democrats voted unanimously in favor of a $40 billion package of arms and other assistance to Kyiv.
These two moments capture an important shift in how the American left thinks about the U.S. military and war more generally. Progressives typically see war as inherently murderous and dehumanizing—sapping progress, curtailing free expression, and channeling resources into the “military-industrial complex.” The left led the opposition to the Vietnam War and the Iraq War and condemned American war crimes from the My Lai massacre to Abu Ghraib. Historically, progressive critics have charged the military with a litany of sins, including discrimination against LGBTQ soldiers and a reliance on recruiting in poor communities.
Meanwhile, for decades, the right embraced America’s warriors. Defense hawks were one of the three legs of the “Reagan stool,” along with social and fiscal conservatives. The military itself leaned right. One study found that from 1976 to 1996, the number of Army officers who identified as Republican increased from one-third to two-thirds. In 2016, according to a poll in the Military Times, active service members favored Donald Trump over Hillary Clinton by a margin of nearly two to one.

In the past few years, however, these views have started to change. From 2021 to 2022, the share of Republicans who had “a great deal” or “quite a lot of confidence” in the military fell from 81 to 71 percent, whereas for Democrats, the number increased from 63 to 67 percent—cutting the gap from 18 points to four. And the military’s views shifted in tandem. In 2020, dozens of former Republican national-security officials endorsed President Joe Biden because Trump had “gravely damaged America’s role as a world leader.” In one poll before the 2020 election, more active service members backed Biden than Trump (41 to 37 percent).

Why has this happened? Two big reasons are Trump and Ukraine.

Trump saw the military as a symbol of power and surrounded himself with a phalanx of generals. But when he realized they were not a Praetorian Guard that would do his bidding, defend him against all enemies foreign and domestic, and keep him in office by force if necessary, he soured on the military. Trump trampled on its most sacred beliefs and rituals, saying that U.S. generals were “dopes” and “babies” who “want to do nothing but fight wars.” Americans killed in battle, he said, were “losers” and “suckers.” Trump suggested that Gold Star families had spread COVID at the White House. He railed against American prisoners of war: “I like people who weren’t captured.” He pardoned three service members accused or convicted of war crimes, even though military leaders said it would erode the military’s code of justice. In his testimony to Congress, Trump’s acting defense secretary, Christopher Miller, said that Trump had told him to ready the National Guard to protect his supporters on January 6, rather than Congress itself. All of this created a fundamental clash with the military’s code of honor and its commitment to the Constitution. Trump wondered why American generals couldn’t be more like Hitler’s generals—by which he meant the loyalist fanatics who battled in the ruins of Berlin, not the Wehrmacht officials who tried to assassinate the Nazi dictator.

10% for the Big Guy.

I sell $600 of stuff on eBay I get a 1099, Congress launders tens of billions through Ukraine- no accountability

 

[Mushroom]

It always starts with "training" and "advising".

And most times it ends there also.

There have been over 15 MAAG missions since the end of WWII. Only one of them had the result of Vietnam.

 

[pknopp]

And most times it ends there also.

There have been over 15 MAAG missions since the end of WWII. Only one of them had the result of Vietnam.

They all resulted in things we had no business being involved in.