The Rise of the Liberal Hawks

[whitehall]

George Marshall got us involved in Vietnam. Johnson lied it into a war.

Former COS George Marshall was promoted by FDR over more qualified generals even though he had no combat experience and his peace time commands were less than successful. Was he FDR's lapdog? On the day of Infamy, Marshall had the Japanese code in his hands but he delayed until it was too late to warn Pearl Harbor. Marshall's "leadership" during the war was lackluster and his peculiar decision to hold Ike's forces from taking Berlin ultimately led to the Russian "Iron Curtain. Marshall's appointment as Secretary/State after the war resulted in our ally the loyal Chinese giving up their arms and ushering in the Mao takeover. Marshall couldn't have been a better tool of the Communist/Socialist revolution if he was hired by Stalin.

 

[Mushroom]

Former COS George Marshall was promoted by FDR over more qualified generals even though he had no combat experience and his peace time commands were less than successful. Was he FDR's lapdog? On the day of Infamy, Marshall had the Japanese code in his hands but he delayed until it was too late to warn Pearl Harbor.

Oh holy hell!

The Chief of Staff is not a "Combat Position". They are the top administrator of the Army.

Oh, and who else was there? Do you even know who the 4 star Generals were in December 1941?

Well, there were a total of 3. And two of them were retired as they had each already served as Chief of Staff prior to Marshall.

So who else was there? Not Ike, he was only a Colonel at that time. Not Omar Bradley, he had only been promoted to Brigadier General two months before the US entered the war. Not Patton, he had just been promoted to Major General. So who exactly was better qualified, and was of the appropriate rank at the time?

And yes, the top leadership read the intercepted, decoded, and translated memo from Tokyo to the Embassy before the Japanese Ambassador did. By a whopping three hours.

Any idea how long it took to relay information from DC to Hawaii in 1941?

Well, most information was transmitted by hand courier. That means just like in the movies, and officer with a briefcase handcuffed to his wrist flying or taking a boat. Obviously, they could not do that.

So instead, they generally use telegram. That means encoding the message, then handing it off to Western Union, who then transmits it to Hawaii. Where it then has to be picked up, then taken back to Headquarters where it is then decoded. At that time there were no actual wire connections from the US to Hawaii for the military. All communications went through Western Union. Of course, after the attack the Western Union office in Hawaii quickly fell under the military, both so they could get the information faster and for security purposes.

True fact, the warning order to Hawaii that an attack was on the way was actually sitting in the Honolulu Western Union office when the attack started. By the time it was finally taken to the Naval Headquarters and decoded the attack was almost complete.

Oh, and they could not just send a radio signal. The tropospheric conditions are generally very poor during the day, and that day were particularly bad. The news going the other way was much faster, as things like security were no longer important as the attack was underway.

 

[Mushroom]

Oh, and in case anybody is wondering, here is the list of all "Three Star Generals" in 1941.

Hugh Drum
Stanley Ford
Stanly Embrick
Albery Bowley
John DeWitt
Ben Lear
Delos Emmons
Walter Short (side note, he was the Army Commander in Hawaii on 7 December. He was removed and forced to retire)
Walter Krueger
Lesley McNair
Frank Andrews

And I am sure most reading that list would be scratching their head, as they had likely heard of none of those. The first of the "Future Three Star All-Stars" would not get their third star until after the attack. That includes HAP Arnold and Joe Stilwell. Jonathan Wainwright would not get his third star until right before he surrendered the Philippines. The first of the big ones was Ike, he got his third star 8 months later in July 1942.

 

[Correll]

The Chief of Staff is not a "Combat Position". They are the top administrator of the Army.

His point clearly was not that that position was a combat position.

 

[Mushroom]

His point clearly was not that that position was a combat position.

Then why make such a big deal about him having no combat experience? If it was not a combat command, then how in the hell would that matter in any way, shape, or form?

Oh, and Ike had no combat experience prior to landing in Africa in late 1942.

His point is completely dwarfed by facts.

 

[whitehall]

Oh holy hell!

The Chief of Staff is not a "Combat Position". They are the top administrator of the Army.

Oh, and who else was there? Do you even know who the 4 star Generals were in December 1941?

Well, there were a total of 3. And two of them were retired as they had each already served as Chief of Staff prior to Marshall.

So who else was there? Not Ike, he was only a Colonel at that time. Not Omar Bradley, he had only been promoted to Brigadier General two months before the US entered the war. Not Patton, he had just been promoted to Major General. So who exactly was better qualified, and was of the appropriate rank at the time?

And yes, the top leadership read the intercepted, decoded, and translated memo from Tokyo to the Embassy before the Japanese Ambassador did. By a whopping three hours.

Any idea how long it took to relay information from DC to Hawaii in 1941?

Well, most information was transmitted by hand courier. That means just like in the movies, and officer with a briefcase handcuffed to his wrist flying or taking a boat. Obviously, they could not do that.

So instead, they generally use telegram. That means encoding the message, then handing it off to Western Union, who then transmits it to Hawaii. Where it then has to be picked up, then taken back to Headquarters where it is then decoded. At that time there were no actual wire connections from the US to Hawaii for the military. All communications went through Western Union. Of course, after the attack the Western Union office in Hawaii quickly fell under the military, both so they could get the information faster and for security purposes.

True fact, the warning order to Hawaii that an attack was on the way was actually sitting in the Honolulu Western Union office when the attack started. By the time it was finally taken to the Naval Headquarters and decoded the attack was almost complete.

Oh, and they could not just send a radio signal. The tropospheric conditions are generally very poor during the day, and that day were particularly bad. The news going the other way was much faster, as things like security were no longer important as the attack was underway.

COS Marshall held a higher rank than combat generals even though he never saw combat. Old Harry Truman used to talk about passing the buck? The buck stopped with Marshall and yet nobody questioned his wisdom in holding back Ike's Troops poised to take Berlin.