The right to choose

[sagegirl]

Who is the "you" you keep referring to? If you are offended my "our" belief systems, maybe you would be more comfortable in a place where everyone shared "your" (you sagegirl) belief systems, this isn't sagegirl's message board afterall. Just my opinion, sorry if you feel it's been forced on you.

The "you "I refer to is the responders on the boards that claim moral high ground when it comes to their beliefs. I am more than willing to respect you and your beliefs. Is this message board only open to those who agree or is it a forum where we can state our opinions and discuss them with others.

 

[Avatar4321]

The only absolute truth I believe in is that there are none other than this statement.

The only problem with that is it doesnt matter if you believe something is a truth or not.

You could phrase it like

The only absolute truth is there are none other than this statement.

However, even then it doesnt logically flow. There is no way to declaratively say that that is the only truth. How do you know it? The only reason d's logic works is because as he pointed out its a contradiction so it cant possibly be true. All your statement tell us is that you are close minded to truth. Im not sure thats what you want to get across.

 

[sagegirl]

Couldn't agree more!



"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." That is from the US Constitution. "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" is clearly promising freedom OF religion.



Get yourself a dictiobary or a thesaurus, because your entire premise of the word "belief" is incorrect. The word itself has nothing to do with religion. I believe I am good at video games. That does not mean God spoke to me in my dreams "Paul, thou shalt kick holy ass in Halo". And another thing, abortion is killing an unborn child who's only crime was that he would have been a burden on his irresponsible parents. Capital Punishment is killing a man who killed many other people. If you cannot see the difference you are officially f'd up.



Sorry I thought your tirade against the word "believe" was over. Paragraphs are your friend. See above.




Ok, fine. I wanna smoke crack. If I smoke crack in my basement with noone around, what's the big deal? I juist want to exercise my right to make decisions about my body and my life. I don't agree with people who say "crack is bad". So I don't want to seek their permission about what I can do with my body. You don't like crack? KEEP YOUR BELIEF SYSTEM OUT OF MY LIFE!

Time to smoke that shit

[Disclaimer: No, I am not really a crack head]

I lost you there at the end, but to answer on a couple other issues.

I did look up belief in the dict. so here goes:1. the state of believing; conviction or acceptance that certain things are true or real. 2. faith, esp religious faith 3. trust or confidence 4. anything believed or accepted as true, esp a creed, doctrine, or tenet. 5. an opinion.

I even tried to paraphrase it by substituting at one point " belief has to do with religion or faith". I think my use of the word, especially taken in the context of the point I was making was absolutely correct.

Also I did not say the Constitution prohibited religion, as you comment clearly shows, "it will make no laws ......" but it does protect me from being persecuted by you in the name of your religious beliefs. enough

 

[missredeyes]

EDIT: A post above mine had an interesting response:

"it is the woman's right to choose...
whether or not someone disagree's, there will always be abortions happening.. illegal or legal. its just a fact that we all have to put up with."

Well. There will always be murders, wether murder is legal or illegal. Why don't we legalize murder? We can have you go to a judge, say "Mr. Smith has repeatedly offended my family, and stolen my TV set." Then the judge can issue a Hit License, so the guy can kill his target legally. This way he won't have to hold up a store to get the money, break into a gun shop to get the gun, and the killer won't be as sloppy and accidently kill innocents. Now that it's legal, he can do everything out in the open and cautiosly. So you see legalizing murder would be a good thing. Murders will happen anyway. Time to end the backally murders if you ask me.

there again lies the difference between two persons reasonings/beliefs.
both disagree stongly either with pro-life or pro-choice

one person may look at abortion as murder.
and another person may look at abortion as a vital choice for their 'own' body to have the right to.

do we exercise every right we are given? every single choice we are allowed? even if we don't, we still should have every right to.

if a mother doesn't want the child.. why would it be best to still have the child? or better.. be forced to have it?

i'm sure your next response is..
take responsibilities for you actions.
right?

even if a woman decides to have an abortion.. she still has to live with that fact the rest of their life.. isn't that enough pain and suffering for them?
if they chose to not have the child? knowing that they could have possibly had that child?
you must always take in to concideration, the life of the mother first.
since she is the carrier of the child.


and people who murder.. get prosecuted..and sentenced.
don't they have to live with that crime the rest of their life? (depending on how long their life is sentenced to last?)

so you compare a woman aborting her pregnancy, where the child has not yet reached complete consciousness to this world.. to a person (man or woman) murdering an already existed life on this planet?

how do you know what plan that unborn child has?
how do you know that child was supposed to be born?

 

[lilcountriegal]

so you compare a woman aborting her pregnancy, where the child has not yet reached complete consciousness to this world.. to a person (man or woman) murdering an already existed life on this planet?

How exactly do you know that the child has not yet reached complete consciousness at what age? There have been documented cases where when there is a saline injection abortion, the fetus tries to "move away" from the injected solution, most likely because it is burning them.

Furthermore, in 1995 (and the statistics are much higher now, I'm sure), there were almost 10,000 abortions when the gestation period was 21 weeks or longer. If you have not read through the thread "Abortion", here again is a picture of a 21 week old fetus being operated on by a physician to save its life. Certainly looks more like a "he or she" than an "it" to me.

Statistics

 

[missredeyes]

***********

USA TODAY
Posted 8/22/2003 12:17 AM Updated 8/22/2003 9:38 AM

Census counts adoptees: 1.6M kids

The Census Bureau's first profile of adopted children, out Friday, shows that 1.6 million adopted kids under 18 are now living in U.S. households. Although foreign adoptions are increasing and getting the most headlines, the report shows 87% of adoptees under 18 were born in the USA.

**********

http://womensissues.about.com/cs/abortionstats/a/aaabortionstats.htm

Approximately 1,370,000 abortions occur annually in the U.S. according to the Alan Guttmacher Institute.
In 2001, 1.31 million abortions took place.
88% of abortions occur during the first 6 to 12 weeks of pregnancy.
60% of abortions are performed on women who already have one or more children.
47% of abortions are performed on women who have already had one or more abortions.
43% of women will have had at least one abortion by the time they are 45 years old.

**********

both numbers are increasing.. for adoptees and abortions.



look.. i'm only debating that every woman has the right of choice.
and NO ONE should try to hinder that right or take it away.
it is their body.. their right to suffer the pain of having an abortion, and giving up that child.

who ever chooses an abortion for whatever personal reason.. that issue is between the mother, the father, and their belief of god (if they have one).

 

[Trinity]

What about the baby, does it get a choice in this?

and as for having a choice, women do have a choice, there are about 10 diffrent types of birth control that I can think of, off the top of my head!

and for those who claim birth control won't work for me or didn't work for me there is always the natural method which would consist of a women knowing her cycle, it's not hard to learn. I know of a few women who use that method because they do not want to put chemicals into their system. so it does work it's called self control during the ovulation period!!



Oh and I guess if all those methods fail there is such a thing called adoption. There are lots of loving families in america who would love to adopt an infant.
oh but then the mother would have to deal with the fact that someone else is raising her unwanted child, so instead it's just easier to kill it right?

 

[Mr. P]

Women should not be denied the "Choice". Does that mean I approve/disapprove of abortion? No.
It means, I can separate my personal beliefs, from the rights of others to have theirs.
I wouldn't interfere in your life if you want to have a baby you can't afford either.

It's as simple as that.

 

[sagegirl]

Women should not be denied the "Choice". Does that mean I approve/disapprove of abortion? No.
It means, I can separate my personal beliefs, from the rights of others to have theirs.
I wouldn't interfere in your life if you want to have a baby you can't afford either.

It's as simple as that.

I like your live and let live attitude!

 

[theim]

I lost you there at the end, but to answer on a couple other issues.

I did look up belief in the dict. so here goes:1. the state of believing; conviction or acceptance that certain things are true or real. 2. faith, esp religious faith 3. trust or confidence 4. anything believed or accepted as true, esp a creed, doctrine, or tenet. 5. an opinion.

I even tried to paraphrase it by substituting at one point " belief has to do with religion or faith". I think my use of the word, especially taken in the context of the point I was making was absolutely correct.

Also I did not say the Constitution prohibited religion, as you comment clearly shows, "it will make no laws ......" but it does protect me from being persecuted by you in the name of your religious beliefs. enough

Um hello. only 1/5 of those dictionary examples says it has anything to do with religion.

And how are you being persectuted by my religious beliefs? My stance on abortion has little to do with religion. Life begins at conception. You are not just removing a wart. You are killing a human life.

The "my body my right" argument is bunk, read my above reply and the part about crack cocaine.

 

[Shattered]

my body my right" argument is bunk

Read it. Learn it. Live it.

 

[Bonnie]

From the position that abortion is murder, then what is capital punishment or waging war? I am being "anal" about the wording when it applies to one and not the others.

Heres a difference...........Capitol punishment is the killing of a person who made the choice to take another's life, while a baby is innocent and helpless and deserves the right to live. and just for the record I don't really support Capitol Punishment unless it's a really hurendous crime, like mass murder etc. I think there should be a moritorium on it until DNA tests can be done to protect those who innocently have been incarcerated and sentenced to death. I would also break into a lab and rescue animals from experiments.........How do you exlpain the pro-abortion advocates thinking that saving animal life is more important than a human baby........???

We are waging war as means to protect us from those that mean us harm and have attacked us and our innocent civilians, yes collateral killing is a tragedy, and one which our country takes pains to avoid.......However there is good that has come to those in places where we have waged war, freedom, prosperity..etc.

What good comes from abortion? Nothing!!

 

[sagegirl]

Heres a difference...........Capitol punishment is the killing of a person who made the choice to take another's life, while a baby is innocent and helpless and deserves the right to live. and just for the record I don't really support Capitol Punishment unless it's a really hurendous crime, like mass murder etc. I think there should be a moritorium on it until DNA tests can be done to protect those who innocently have been incarcerated and sentenced to death. I would also break into a lab and rescue animals from experiments.........How do you exlpain the pro-abortion advocates thinking that saving animal life is more important than a human baby........???

We are waging war as means to protect us from those that mean us harm and have attacked us and our innocent civilians, yes collateral killing is a tragedy, and one which our country takes pains to avoid.......However there is good that has come to those in places where we have waged war, freedom, prosperity..etc.

What good comes from abortion? Nothing!!

You make some good arguements: A moritorium on cap punishment might be a good idea. Some of the most viscious and vile murderers end up getting life in prison, due to plea bargains or whatever, so using the arguement to use it for the worst of the worst doesnt hold up, unfortunately.
I can honestly say I dont know how I think this issue should go.....should we as a society kill, should we, as a society, bear the financial burden of keeping some lowlife in prison for the rest of their life, providing them with food, shelter, medical care and more. (even while some law abiding citizens on the outside suffer to make ends meet) I guess I would really lean toward a humane euthanasia, althought they might deserve pain and suffering.

That sort of ties into the comments about animals...I too resent the use of animals for research. I think when we exploit any living thing, be it an innocent embryo or a rabbit, we have to seriously consider why. (The reason I call an innocent embryo being exploited is because the religious right has used this to image to infuse their religious doctrine into the law.) A persons fundamental values dictate their opinions regarding abortion. I dont think any amount of discussion will make anyone change their mind on this.
I hope we can continue to agree or disagree, whichever way it goes, on other issues. I find you to be more thoughful and respectful that some of the people here.

 

[Bonnie]

You make some good arguements: A moritorium on cap punishment might be a good idea. Some of the most viscious and vile murderers end up getting life in prison, due to plea bargains or whatever, so using the arguement to use it for the worst of the worst doesnt hold up, unfortunately.
I can honestly say I dont know how I think this issue should go.....should we as a society kill, should we, as a society, bear the financial burden of keeping some lowlife in prison for the rest of their life, providing them with food, shelter, medical care and more. (even while some law abiding citizens on the outside suffer to make ends meet) I guess I would really lean toward a humane euthanasia, althought they might deserve pain and suffering.

That sort of ties into the comments about animals...I too resent the use of animals for research. I think when we exploit any living thing, be it an innocent embryo or a rabbit, we have to seriously consider why. (The reason I call an innocent embryo being exploited is because the religious right has used this to image to infuse their religious doctrine into the law.) A persons fundamental values dictate their opinions regarding abortion. I dont think any amount of discussion will make anyone change their mind on this.
I hope we can continue to agree or disagree, whichever way it goes, on other issues. I find you to be more thoughful and respectful that some of the people here.

I want to address your assertion about the right to life groups ever politicising abortion, because I see it coming form the other side, as exampled by many politicians who started out as pro-life but soon realized where who controlled the campaign purse strings.........Now and Naral, as exampled by Al Gore and others.

I have worked woth many different people in the rpo-life movement........Non Christians, Lesbians for life, and they were definately not I got drunk in college and experimented, these were full blown bull dike lesbians, who were deeply concerned about the lack of respect for human life that has sprung from the act of abortion. Most Christians and other pro-life groups are not about ruining anyone's good time, we are not tightass reactionaries who can't get sex, we are just dedicated to saving human life..........It's that simple.

 

[MissileMan]

There are so many things wrong with this paragraph im not sure where to begin. Ok ill start with grammar. I understand youre trying to get a point across. If youd like to do it better, please use paragraphs when you change subjects. writing in run ons is very distracting and hard to read.

Second, Truth is truth regardless of whether you believe it or not. Thats the beauty of truth. its an anchor in a world of uncertainity. For example. the world is round. That is a truth. You can believe it or not but its not going to change whether its round or not. Believing it is flat does not make it true. If there werent truths that govern the world around us, science would be useless. because the point of science is to learn those truths and use them for our benefit.

The same is true with moral truth. God has revealed moral truths to all people at different times and places. That is why almost all religions have alot of the same moral principles. God give men what they can handle. And those who live moral principles have an anchor to their souls in times of trial and adversity.

As for Abortion and Capital punishment. Im amazed that you cant tell the difference between mudering an innocent child because of the sins of his/her parents and executing a serial killer. One is an act of injustice. the other is justice.

Here's the problem with absolutes. You have to allow for "unless". For example, "Thou shalt not kill." unless it's in self defense, or unless it's to execute some scumbag murderer. And if you have to allow for "unless", then it's not really an absolute is it?

 

[theim]

Here's the problem with absolutes. You have to allow for "unless". For example, "Thou shalt not kill." unless it's in self defense, or unless it's to execute some scumbag murderer. And if you have to allow for "unless", then it's not really an absolute is it?

I disagree. There is a right, and there is such a thing as wrong. The two should be plainly obvious to anyone who isn't a psychopath.

Examples:

Killing for pleasure = wrong
Killing for greed = wrong
Killing for self-defense = right
Killing for societel self-defense (Cap. Punishment) = right
Killing for conveniance (Abortion) = wrong

When you refuse to see that there are such absolutist terms as right or wrong, then the problem is that nothing can be considered wrong.

 

[MissileMan]

I disagree. There is a right, and there is such a thing as wrong. The two should be plainly obvious to anyone who isn't a psychopath.

Examples:

Killing for pleasure = wrong
Killing for greed = wrong
Killing for self-defense = right
Killing for societel self-defense (Cap. Punishment) = right
Killing for conveniance (Abortion) = wrong

When you refuse to see that there are such absolutist terms as right or wrong, then the problem is that nothing can be considered wrong.

I never said there's no right or wrong. But I would wager that there is a difference between what you and I consider what's right and what's wrong.

According to the bible, god gave man an absolute, "Thou shalt not kill". I've never seen any qualifiers in any version of the 10 commandments. The question is, where did the qualifiers you mentioned come from. Yes, they make sense, but they don't follow the absolute. I am also not trying to say that murder is right or that capital punishment is wrong. I am merely arguing that there are very few absolutes, and that there would be a lot of disagreement about what those absolutes are.

 

[ChrisH]

If a woman should have the right to choose, then so should a person have the right to choose to allow their religion to help them decide their stance on political issues, such as abortion. I myself, am Pro Life!

 

[sagegirl]

If a woman should have the right to choose, then so should a person have the right to choose to allow their religion to help them decide their stance on political issues, such as abortion. I myself, am Pro Life!

Good for you, you got it.....YOU have the right to choose to allow YOUR religion to decide your stance on political issues.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

According to the bible, god gave man an absolute, "Thou shalt not kill". I've never seen any qualifiers in any version of the 10 commandments.

Actually, I saw on tv one time that this is more properly translated as "though shalt not murder", murder being the criminalized form of killing, a qualifier, if you will.