Zone1 What are "Rights"? Should we allow them to the other side?

[alang1216]

so me saying "no one has a right to kill another person" is a deflection??

I answered it directly,,

yes if its proven the life of the mother is in danger the child should be removed,,

Thank you. So we both agree there are circumstances where abortion is warranted we just don't agree on the circumstances.

but as we know thats such a small percentage its almost not worth discussing,,

So the life of the mother is a valid reason, agreed. What about the health of the mother? What if she would be permanently and severely injured by giving birth? I'm guessing that is where we part.

if the mother is 8 months along and its proven her life is in danger do you perform an abortion or just remove the child alive??

Not enough information. Being a month premature is a no-brainer, you save the child AND the mother if at all possible.

I go with the professionals:

The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists and Physicians for Reproductive Health released the following joint statement:

​

“The science of medicine is not subjective, and a strongly held personal belief should never outweigh scientific evidence, override standards of medical care, or drive policy that puts a person’s health and life at risk.​

​

“Pregnancy imposes significant physiological changes on a person’s body. These changes can exacerbate underlying or preexisting conditions, like renal or cardiac disease, and can severely compromise health or even cause death. Determining the appropriate medical intervention depends on a patient’s specific condition. There are situations where pregnancy termination in the form of an abortion is the only medical intervention that can preserve a patient’s health or save their life.​

​

“As physicians, we are focused on protecting the health and lives of the patients for whom we provide care. Without question, abortion can be medically necessary.”​

---

The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG) is the nation’s leading group of physicians providing health care for women. As a private, voluntary, nonprofit membership organization of more than 58,000 members, ACOG strongly advocates for quality health care for women, maintains the highest standards of clinical practice and continuing education of its members, promotes patient education, and increases awareness among its members and the public of the changing issues facing women’s health care. www.acog.org

 

[progressive hunter]

Thank you. So we both agree there are circumstances where abortion is warranted we just don't agree on the circumstances.


So the life of the mother is a valid reason, agreed. What about the health of the mother? What if she would be permanently and severely injured by giving birth? I'm guessing that is where we part.


Not enough information. Being a month premature is a no-brainer, you save the child AND the mother if at all possible.

I go with the professionals:

The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists and Physicians for Reproductive Health released the following joint statement:

​

“The science of medicine is not subjective, and a strongly held personal belief should never outweigh scientific evidence, override standards of medical care, or drive policy that puts a person’s health and life at risk.​

​

“Pregnancy imposes significant physiological changes on a person’s body. These changes can exacerbate underlying or preexisting conditions, like renal or cardiac disease, and can severely compromise health or even cause death. Determining the appropriate medical intervention depends on a patient’s specific condition. There are situations where pregnancy termination in the form of an abortion is the only medical intervention that can preserve a patient’s health or save their life.​

​

“As physicians, we are focused on protecting the health and lives of the patients for whom we provide care. Without question, abortion can be medically necessary.”​

---

The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG) is the nation’s leading group of physicians providing health care for women. As a private, voluntary, nonprofit membership organization of more than 58,000 members, ACOG strongly advocates for quality health care for women, maintains the highest standards of clinical practice and continuing education of its members, promotes patient education, and increases awareness among its members and the public of the changing issues facing women’s health care. www.acog.org

every women is severly injured giving birth,, bodies heal,, souls dont,,
the difference I am see in our positions is you always fall to the side of killing the child and I always side with doing whatever it takes to save the mother and the child,,

you should have left "safe rare and available alone,,

 

[alang1216]

the difference I am see in our positions is you always fall to the side of killing the child and I always side with doing whatever it takes to save the mother and the child,,

Not true. There were severe restrictions on abortions after the first trimester and I was fine with them. In the second trimester, there must be an acute health risk to warrant an abortion. In the third trimester, only saving the life of mother would be justification.

Since you never fall on the side of the mother, this may seem extreme to you but I think this is the thinking of the majority of Americans.

you should have left "safe rare and available alone,,

I was fine with "safe, rare, and available", it was you right-wingers that could not accept it.

 

[progressive hunter]

Not true. There were severe restrictions on abortions after the first trimester and I was fine with them. In the second trimester, there must be an acute health risk to warrant an abortion. In the third trimester, only saving the life of mother would be justification.

Since you never fall on the side of the mother, this may seem extreme to you but I think this is the thinking of the majority of Americans.


I was fine with "safe, rare, and available", it was you right-wingers that could not accept it.

I 100% said save the life of the mother,, and pointed out that threat is almost non existent,,

until now you have not once said anything about saving the child,, and even now you favor killing the child with abortion in the third trimester instead of just removing the child alive,,

are you against the overwhelming majority of abortions being used as a form of contraception and not health issues??

 

[Chuz Life]

Not true. There were severe restrictions on abortions after the first trimester and I was fine with them. In the second trimester, there must be an acute health risk to warrant an abortion. In the third trimester, only saving the life of mother would be justification.

Since you never fall on the side of the mother, this may seem extreme to you but I think this is the thinking of the majority of Americans.


I was fine with "safe, rare, and available", it was you right-wingers that could not accept it.

What is she the "mother" of if it is not a "child?"

 

[Monk-Eye]

" When Slang Is Foundation Of Formal Language "

* When Religion Substitutes For Science And Law *

The term right applied as slang for the basis of legal concepts is preposterous .

. Applying THe Term Rights As A Descriptor For Articles Of Constitution Is Slang And A Profound Error In Diction .

" Arcane Slang Passed Along And Stupidity Became An Institutionalize Habit "
* Better Diction For Understanding Dogma *
There is not a difference between a religion and edicts and tenets of a creed , and in us first amendment there is not an exception for rituals as a religion with edicts or tenets of creed to violate principles of non violence and individualism .
Thus , in a way , whether it is understood as a creed or a religion , public policy laws establish entitlements to ritual , which are succinctly termed rites , and entitlements to ritual written into law are succinctly termed writs .
Should those legal craftsman writing writs for ritual wish to refer to themselves as wrights and the laws they create as wrights , that is more accurate than them claiming that they write rights .

* Overgeneralized Application of Liberal Versus Conservative Paradigm Is Also Preposterous *

The incorrect application of the terms liberal and conservative are contributing to public mental retardation , political science incompetence , even subversion against informed consent for us public .
. Political Science Terminology : Negative / Positive : Wrights / Liberties : Protections / Endowments .

 

[Chuz Life]

I 100% said save the life of the mother,, and pointed out that threat is almost non existent,,

until now you have not once said anything about saving the child,, and even now you favor killing the child with abortion in the third trimester instead of just removing the child alive,,

are you against the overwhelming majority of abortions being used as a form of contraception and not health issues??

Your post pokes me to share some things.

Too many things.

I should just write a book.

 

[progressive hunter]

Your post pokes me to share some things.

Too many things.

I should just write a book.

we all have a book to write about our lives,,

its just that some of us dont want others to know,,

 

[Chuz Life]

we all have a book to write about our lives,,

its just that some of us dont want others to know,,

That and the older I get, the more I realize nobody else cares.

 

[alang1216]

I 100% said save the life of the mother,, and pointed out that threat is almost non existent,,

You did say save the life of the mother but you didn't seem as concerned about the health of the mother. Was I wrong?

until now you have not once said anything about saving the child,, and even now you favor killing the child with abortion in the third trimester instead of just removing the child alive,,

I suspect if we're talking about a late term abortion, removing the child alive, though preferable, is no longer an option.

are you against the overwhelming majority of abortions being used as a form of contraception and not health issues??

Ahhh, the crux of the debate. I think an abortion is a failure on someone's part, is regrettable, and should not be a primary form of birth control (the "rare" part). That said, I have no problem with a "morning after" pill and I think that is how the majority of abortions happen. As I said, I view a fertilized egg a mother does not want as of little value. Between the fertilized egg stage and birth, that mass of tissue becomes a person with rights but exactly where that is I don't know but the end of the first trimester seems reasonable.

 

[alang1216]

What is she the "mother" of if it is not a "child?"

Do you prefer "pregnant woman"?

 

[progressive hunter]

You did say save the life of the mother but you didn't seem as concerned about the health of the mother. Was I wrong?


I suspect if we're talking about a late term abortion, removing the child alive, though preferable, is no longer an option.


Ahhh, the crux of the debate. I think an abortion is a failure on someone's part, is regrettable, and should not be a primary form of birth control (the "rare" part). That said, I have no problem with a "morning after" pill and I think that is how the majority of abortions happen. As I said, I view a fertilized egg a mother does not want as of little value. Between the fertilized egg stage and birth, that mass of tissue becomes a person with rights but exactly where that is I don't know but the end of the first trimester seems reasonable.

what about the child you want to have killed??
does their health mean nothing??

why is not killing the child when you clearly dont have to "no longer an option"??

at least youre admitting its an innocent human being youre ok with being put to death and not a clump of cells,,

even if that makes you inhuman and evil,,

 

[progressive hunter]

Ahhh, the crux of the debate. I think an abortion is a failure on someone's part, is regrettable, and should not be a primary form of birth control (the "rare" part). That said, I have no problem with a "morning after" pill and I think that is how the majority of abortions happen. As I said, I view a fertilized egg a mother does not want as of little value. Between the fertilized egg stage and birth, that mass of tissue becomes a person with rights but exactly where that is I don't know but the end of the first trimester seems reasonable.

thinking more about your reference to "fertilized egg",,

you know thats more of a process than anything, and once fertilized its starts its journey towards being a full grown adult,,


I could give you the day after pill if not knowing you wont stop there and as youve said even if the child could be saved is no longer an option,,

for you its just KILL THEM,,

 

[Chuz Life]

Do you prefer "pregnant woman"?

I prefer you acknowledge the fact that you calling her a "mother" only proves that you know it's a child in the womb, even as you try to deny it.

 

[progressive hunter]

Do you prefer "pregnant woman"?

what is she pregnant with??

preg·nant
[ˈprɛɡnənt]
adjective
pregnant (adjective)

1. (of a woman or female animal) having a child or young developing in the uterus:
   "she was heavily pregnant with her second child"
   "she was six months pregnant"

 

[Chuz Life]

Ahhh, the crux of the debate. I think an abortion is a failure on someone's part, is regrettable, and should not be a primary form of birth control (the "rare" part). That said, I have no problem with a "morning after" pill and I think that is how the majority of abortions happen. As I said, I view a fertilized egg a mother does not want as of little value. Between the fertilized egg stage and birth, that mass of tissue becomes a person with rights but exactly where that is I don't know but the end of the first trimester seems reasonable.

So much for "her body HER choice."

 

[alang1216]

what about the child you want to have killed??
does their health mean nothing??

I am not concerned with the health of a fertilized egg and would not call it a "child".

why is not killing the child when you clearly dont have to "no longer an option"??

I would not kill a child but when a late term abortion generally means there are critical health issues so the decisions are "clear".

at least youre admitting its an innocent human being youre ok with being put to death and not a clump of cells,,

even if that makes you inhuman and evil,,

A fertilized egg is not a person of value, it is essentially just a bag of DNA, an organic molecule, little different from what's in other cells. Until it develops the characteristics that make humans unique, it IS a clump of cells. If that makes me inhuman and evil, I'm in good company since that would be the prevailing opinion in the US.

 

[alang1216]

thinking more about your reference to "fertilized egg",,

you know thats more of a process than anything, and once fertilized its starts its journey towards being a full grown adult,,


I could give you the day after pill if not knowing you wont stop there and as youve said even if the child could be saved is no longer an option,,

for you its just KILL THEM,,

It appears we have reached agreement. Aborting a fertilized egg is, while not a good thing, is acceptable. Aborting a late term pregnancy is not acceptable except under extreme and rare circumstances. I don't know where to draw that line between the two, do you?

 

[alang1216]

I prefer you acknowledge the fact that you calling her a "mother" only proves that you know it's a child in the womb, even as you try to deny it.

Semantics. My family came from Mother Russia.

"Mother Russia" (Матушка Россия) is a central national personification and cultural symbol representing Russia as a nurturing yet enduring maternal figure, often evoking the nation’s resilience, vast landscape, and historical struggles. Rooted in Slavic folklore (e.g., "Moist Mother Earth"), it symbolizes unity, patriotism, and the motherland.

 

[alang1216]

So much for "her body HER choice."

I don't' think a fertilized egg can make a choice, do you?