The right to choose

[sagegirl]

I have to a few things to say about the right to choose. We live in a wonderful country that has its basis in freedom. I hope we all agree that since we are living together in a social enviornment we must have rules to keep social order, otherwise it would be total anarchy. So......a common misconception is that we have freedom "of religion" when in fact we are promised freedom "from religious persecution" What you believe.....and I hear it time and time again is the "I believe "abortion is wrong, "I believe" abortion is murder......"I believe abortion is immoral ". What you believe in becomes a truth for you. It is even hard at times within a structured truth or belief to be absolute....A person who believes abortion is murder might still favor capital punishment or support going to war and killing an enemy, sometimes even in the name of god. Belief has to do with religion, or faith and it often comes more from an emotional need rather than a rational or factual foundation. I have absolutely no problem with a need to believe. It is your right to believe....it is my right to believe ... in whatever we choose. But it is not your right to impose your beliefs on me. We ALL have opinions and beliefs, and I think the more secure we feel with our own concepts the less we feel the need to impose them on others. We are more tolerant, less judgmental, and a free society when we honor and respect the right of each other to live as they believe, not as "I believe". I want to exercise my right to make decisions about my body and my life. I want the right to make those decisions in a manner that is safe, without having to seek the permission of someone that I dont agree with. This then would be my good reason for the right to choose. It keeps you and your belief system out of my life.

 

[dmp]

I have to a few things to say about the right to choose. We live in a wonderful country that has its basis in freedom. I hope we all agree that since we are living together in a social enviornment we must have rules to keep social order, otherwise it would be total anarchy. So......a common misconception is that we have freedom "of religion" when in fact we are promised freedom "from religious persecution" What you believe.....and I hear it time and time again is the "I believe "abortion is wrong, "I believe" abortion is murder......"I believe abortion is immoral ". What you believe in becomes a truth for you. It is even hard at times within a structured truth or belief to be absolute....A person who believes abortion is murder might still favor capital punishment or support going to war and killing an enemy, sometimes even in the name of god. Belief has to do with religion, or faith and it often comes more from an emotional need rather than a rational or factual foundation. I have absolutely no problem with a need to believe. It is your right to believe....it is my right to believe ... in whatever we choose. But it is not your right to impose your beliefs on me. We ALL have opinions and beliefs, and I think the more secure we feel with our own concepts the less we feel the need to impose them on others. We are more tolerant, less judgmental, and a free society when we honor and respect the right of each other to live as they believe, not as "I believe". I want to exercise my right to make decisions about my body and my life. I want the right to make those decisions in a manner that is safe, without having to seek the permission of someone that I dont agree with. This then would be my good reason for the right to choose. It keeps you and your belief system out of my life.

If you cannot seperate the issues of Capital Punishment and War with 'Abortion' you are beyond hope.

 

[dilloduck]

I have to a few things to say about the right to choose. We live in a wonderful country that has its basis in freedom. I hope we all agree that since we are living together in a social enviornment we must have rules to keep social order, otherwise it would be total anarchy. So......a common misconception is that we have freedom "of religion" when in fact we are promised freedom "from religious persecution" What you believe.....and I hear it time and time again is the "I believe "abortion is wrong, "I believe" abortion is murder......"I believe abortion is immoral ". What you believe in becomes a truth for you. It is even hard at times within a structured truth or belief to be absolute....A person who believes abortion is murder might still favor capital punishment or support going to war and killing an enemy, sometimes even in the name of god. Belief has to do with religion, or faith and it often comes more from an emotional need rather than a rational or factual foundation. I have absolutely no problem with a need to believe. It is your right to believe....it is my right to believe ... in whatever we choose. But it is not your right to impose your beliefs on me. We ALL have opinions and beliefs, and I think the more secure we feel with our own concepts the less we feel the need to impose them on others. We are more tolerant, less judgmental, and a free society when we honor and respect the right of each other to live as they believe, not as "I believe". I want to exercise my right to make decisions about my body and my life. I want the right to make those decisions in a manner that is safe, without having to seek the permission of someone that I dont agree with. This then would be my good reason for the right to choose. It keeps you and your belief system out of my life.

AHEM--
stating what I believe in is simply a statement---feel free to act otherwise and lose the persecution complex!

 

[Shattered]

I have to a few things to say about the right to choose. We live in a wonderful country that has its basis in freedom. I hope we all agree that since we are living together in a social enviornment we must have rules to keep social order, otherwise it would be total anarchy. So......a common misconception is that we have freedom "of religion" when in fact we are promised freedom "from religious persecution" What you believe.....and I hear it time and time again is the "I believe "abortion is wrong, "I believe" abortion is murder......"I believe abortion is immoral ". What you believe in becomes a truth for you. It is even hard at times within a structured truth or belief to be absolute....A person who believes abortion is murder might still favor capital punishment or support going to war and killing an enemy, sometimes even in the name of god. Belief has to do with religion, or faith and it often comes more from an emotional need rather than a rational or factual foundation. I have absolutely no problem with a need to believe. It is your right to believe....it is my right to believe ... in whatever we choose. But it is not your right to impose your beliefs on me. We ALL have opinions and beliefs, and I think the more secure we feel with our own concepts the less we feel the need to impose them on others. We are more tolerant, less judgmental, and a free society when we honor and respect the right of each other to live as they believe, not as "I believe". I want to exercise my right to make decisions about my body and my life. I want the right to make those decisions in a manner that is safe, without having to seek the permission of someone that I dont agree with. This then would be my good reason for the right to choose. It keeps you and your belief system out of my life.

You sound pro-baby-murder. Bleh. I believe you suck.

 

[sagegirl]

If you cannot seperate the issues of Capital Punishment and War with 'Abortion' you are beyond hope.

From the position that abortion is murder, then what is capital punishment or waging war? I am being "anal" about the wording when it applies to one and not the others.

 

[Avatar4321]

I have to a few things to say about the right to choose. We live in a wonderful country that has its basis in freedom. I hope we all agree that since we are living together in a social enviornment we must have rules to keep social order, otherwise it would be total anarchy. So......a common misconception is that we have freedom "of religion" when in fact we are promised freedom "from religious persecution" What you believe.....and I hear it time and time again is the "I believe "abortion is wrong, "I believe" abortion is murder......"I believe abortion is immoral ". What you believe in becomes a truth for you. It is even hard at times within a structured truth or belief to be absolute....A person who believes abortion is murder might still favor capital punishment or support going to war and killing an enemy, sometimes even in the name of god. Belief has to do with religion, or faith and it often comes more from an emotional need rather than a rational or factual foundation. I have absolutely no problem with a need to believe. It is your right to believe....it is my right to believe ... in whatever we choose. But it is not your right to impose your beliefs on me. We ALL have opinions and beliefs, and I think the more secure we feel with our own concepts the less we feel the need to impose them on others. We are more tolerant, less judgmental, and a free society when we honor and respect the right of each other to live as they believe, not as "I believe". I want to exercise my right to make decisions about my body and my life. I want the right to make those decisions in a manner that is safe, without having to seek the permission of someone that I dont agree with. This then would be my good reason for the right to choose. It keeps you and your belief system out of my life.

There are so many things wrong with this paragraph im not sure where to begin. Ok ill start with grammar. I understand youre trying to get a point across. If youd like to do it better, please use paragraphs when you change subjects. writing in run ons is very distracting and hard to read.

Second, Truth is truth regardless of whether you believe it or not. Thats the beauty of truth. its an anchor in a world of uncertainity. For example. the world is round. That is a truth. You can believe it or not but its not going to change whether its round or not. Believing it is flat does not make it true. If there werent truths that govern the world around us, science would be useless. because the point of science is to learn those truths and use them for our benefit.

The same is true with moral truth. God has revealed moral truths to all people at different times and places. That is why almost all religions have alot of the same moral principles. God give men what they can handle. And those who live moral principles have an anchor to their souls in times of trial and adversity.

As for Abortion and Capital punishment. Im amazed that you cant tell the difference between mudering an innocent child because of the sins of his/her parents and executing a serial killer. One is an act of injustice. the other is justice.

 

[dmp]

...nevermind the fact the very idea that 'truth is relative' is illogical..


"There are absolutely no absolute thruths.."

 

[sagegirl]

AHEM--
stating what I believe in is simply a statement---feel free to act otherwise and lose the persecution complex!

It is to those that would not allow me the freedom to act otherwise that this is addressed. The question is out there and I just tried to explain it from my point of view. And yes when someone is determined to impose their opinions on someone else, that is persecution.

 

[dmp]

It is to those that would not allow me the freedom to act otherwise that this is addressed. The question is out there and I just tried to explain it from my point of view. And yes when someone is determined to impose their opinions on someone else, that is persecution.

Am I persecuting my kids because I force them to abide by my opinion?

 

[Said1]

I have to a few things to say about the right to choose. We live in a wonderful country that has its basis in freedom. I hope we all agree that since we are living together in a social enviornment we must have rules to keep social order, otherwise it would be total anarchy. So......a common misconception is that we have freedom "of religion" when in fact we are promised freedom "from religious persecution" What you believe.....and I hear it time and time again is the "I believe "abortion is wrong, "I believe" abortion is murder......"I believe abortion is immoral ". What you believe in becomes a truth for you. It is even hard at times within a structured truth or belief to be absolute....A person who believes abortion is murder might still favor capital punishment or support going to war and killing an enemy, sometimes even in the name of god. Belief has to do with religion, or faith and it often comes more from an emotional need rather than a rational or factual foundation. I have absolutely no problem with a need to believe. It is your right to believe....it is my right to believe ... in whatever we choose. But it is not your right to impose your beliefs on me. We ALL have opinions and beliefs, and I think the more secure we feel with our own concepts the less we feel the need to impose them on others. We are more tolerant, less judgmental, and a free society when we honor and respect the right of each other to live as they believe, not as "I believe". I want to exercise my right to make decisions about my body and my life. I want the right to make those decisions in a manner that is safe, without having to seek the permission of someone that I dont agree with. This then would be my good reason for the right to choose. It keeps you and your belief system out of my life.

Who is the "you" you keep referring to? If you are offended my "our" belief systems, maybe you would be more comfortable in a place where everyone shared "your" (you sagegirl) belief systems, this isn't sagegirl's message board afterall. Just my opinion, sorry if you feel it's been forced on you.

 

[sagegirl]

There are so many things wrong with this paragraph im not sure where to begin. Ok ill start with grammar. I understand youre trying to get a point across. If youd like to do it better, please use paragraphs when you change subjects. writing in run ons is very distracting and hard to read.

Second, Truth is truth regardless of whether you believe it or not. Thats the beauty of truth. its an anchor in a world of uncertainity. For example. the world is round. That is a truth. You can believe it or not but its not going to change whether its round or not. Believing it is flat does not make it true. If there werent truths that govern the world around us, science would be useless. because the point of science is to learn those truths and use them for our benefit.

The same is true with moral truth. God has revealed moral truths to all people at different times and places. That is why almost all religions have alot of the same moral principles. God give men what they can handle. And those who live moral principles have an anchor to their souls in times of trial and adversity.

As for Abortion and Capital punishment. Im amazed that you cant tell the difference between mudering an innocent child because of the sins of his/her parents and executing a serial killer. One is an act of injustice. the other is justice.

I apologize for the style of my writing. I will try to be more concise. I guess I set up my post as if I were talking to someone, but I agree that putting something in writing needs a different format. Point taken.

Now I do disagree when you use a term, "moral truth". That is exactly what I take issue with, that morality can be considered a truth. I do agree that many religions share similiar or identical principles, but it is still religion.

I take you to task when you tell me you are amazed that I cant tell the difference between murder and execution when you compare the fact that the world is flat to the opinion that the religious community represents a moral truth.

 

[sagegirl]

Am I persecuting my kids because I force them to abide by my opinion?

No, you are subjecting them to parental control. And I hope wisely.

 

[Shattered]

No, you are subjecting them to parental control. And I hope wisely.

So, what would the difference be, in your opinion?

He's "forcing" his children to abide by his "opinion" on how things should be done...

 

[missredeyes]

I have to a few things to say about the right to choose. We live in a wonderful country that has its basis in freedom. I hope we all agree that since we are living together in a social enviornment we must have rules to keep social order, otherwise it would be total anarchy. So......a common misconception is that we have freedom "of religion" when in fact we are promised freedom "from religious persecution" What you believe.....and I hear it time and time again is the "I believe "abortion is wrong, "I believe" abortion is murder......"I believe abortion is immoral ". What you believe in becomes a truth for you. It is even hard at times within a structured truth or belief to be absolute....A person who believes abortion is murder might still favor capital punishment or support going to war and killing an enemy, sometimes even in the name of god. Belief has to do with religion, or faith and it often comes more from an emotional need rather than a rational or factual foundation. I have absolutely no problem with a need to believe. It is your right to believe....it is my right to believe ... in whatever we choose. But it is not your right to impose your beliefs on me. We ALL have opinions and beliefs, and I think the more secure we feel with our own concepts the less we feel the need to impose them on others. We are more tolerant, less judgmental, and a free society when we honor and respect the right of each other to live as they believe, not as "I believe". I want to exercise my right to make decisions about my body and my life. I want the right to make those decisions in a manner that is safe, without having to seek the permission of someone that I dont agree with. This then would be my good reason for the right to choose. It keeps you and your belief system out of my life.

unfortunately.. people who believe that abortion is wrong.. will never stand down and stop protesting it.. it goes the same for the other side as well that believe its their own right to choice.

no matter how much reasoning you use..
there is always that factor of 'innocent' life being taken and not given the equal chance all human beings have.

if our medicine wasn't so amazing, in saving lives, saving births, helping women that can't get pregnant have children..we wouldn't have the need for abortions, because having children would be more of a blessing (not that they aren't now, but it is pretty safe to say that 80% can have children with little risk, regardless of their health (natural) problems).


it is the woman's right to choose...
whether or not someone disagree's, there will always be abortions happening.. illegal or legal. its just a fact that we all have to put up with.

 

[theim]

I have to a few things to say about the right to choose. We live in a wonderful country that has its basis in freedom. I hope we all agree that since we are living together in a social enviornment we must have rules to keep social order, otherwise it would be total anarchy.

Couldn't agree more!

So......a common misconception is that we have freedom "of religion" when in fact we are promised freedom "from religious persecution"

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." That is from the US Constitution. "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" is clearly promising freedom OF religion.

What you believe.....and I hear it time and time again is the "I believe "abortion is wrong, "I believe" abortion is murder......"I believe abortion is immoral ". What you believe in becomes a truth for you. It is even hard at times within a structured truth or belief to be absolute....A person who believes abortion is murder might still favor capital punishment or support going to war and killing an enemy, sometimes even in the name of god. Belief has to do with religion, or faith and it often comes more from an emotional need rather than a rational or factual foundation.

Get yourself a dictiobary or a thesaurus, because your entire premise of the word "belief" is incorrect. The word itself has nothing to do with religion. I believe I am good at video games. That does not mean God spoke to me in my dreams "Paul, thou shalt kick holy ass in Halo". And another thing, abortion is killing an unborn child who's only crime was that he would have been a burden on his irresponsible parents. Capital Punishment is killing a man who killed many other people. If you cannot see the difference you are officially f'd up.

I have absolutely no problem with a need to believe. It is your right to believe....it is my right to believe ... in whatever we choose. But it is not your right to impose your beliefs on me. We ALL have opinions and beliefs, and I think the more secure we feel with our own concepts the less we feel the need to impose them on others. We are more tolerant, less judgmental, and a free society when we honor and respect the right of each other to live as they believe, not as "I believe".

Sorry I thought your tirade against the word "believe" was over. Paragraphs are your friend. See above.

I want to exercise my right to make decisions about my body and my life. I want the right to make those decisions in a manner that is safe, without having to seek the permission of someone that I dont agree with. This then would be my good reason for the right to choose. It keeps you and your belief system out of my life.

Ok, fine. I wanna smoke crack. If I smoke crack in my basement with noone around, what's the big deal? I juist want to exercise my right to make decisions about my body and my life. I don't agree with people who say "crack is bad". So I don't want to seek their permission about what I can do with my body. You don't like crack? KEEP YOUR BELIEF SYSTEM OUT OF MY LIFE!

Time to smoke that shit

[Disclaimer: No, I am not really a crack head]

 

[theim]

Couldn't agree more!



"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." That is from the US Constitution. "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" is clearly promising freedom OF religion.



Get yourself a dictiobary or a thesaurus, because your entire premise of the word "belief" is incorrect. The word itself has nothing to do with religion. I believe I am good at video games. That does not mean God spoke to me in my dreams "Paul, thou shalt kick holy ass in Halo". And another thing, abortion is killing an unborn child who's only crime was that he would have been a burden on his irresponsible parents. Capital Punishment is killing a man who killed many other people. If you cannot see the difference you are officially f'd up.



Sorry I thought your tirade against the word "believe" was over. Paragraphs are your friend. See above.




Ok, fine. I wanna smoke crack. If I smoke crack in my basement with noone around, what's the big deal? I juist want to exercise my right to make decisions about my body and my life. I don't agree with people who say "crack is bad". So I don't want to seek their permission about what I can do with my body. You don't like crack? KEEP YOUR BELIEF SYSTEM OUT OF MY LIFE!

Time to smoke that shit

[Disclaimer: No, I am not really a crack head]

EDIT: A post above mine had an interesting response:

"it is the woman's right to choose...
whether or not someone disagree's, there will always be abortions happening.. illegal or legal. its just a fact that we all have to put up with."

Well. There will always be murders, wether murder is legal or illegal. Why don't we legalize murder? We can have you go to a judge, say "Mr. Smith has repeatedly offended my family, and stolen my TV set." Then the judge can issue a Hit License, so the guy can kill his target legally. This way he won't have to hold up a store to get the money, break into a gun shop to get the gun, and the killer won't be as sloppy and accidently kill innocents. Now that it's legal, he can do everything out in the open and cautiosly. So you see legalizing murder would be a good thing. Murders will happen anyway. Time to end the backally murders if you ask me.

 

[sagegirl]

So, what would the difference be, in your opinion?

He's "forcing" his children to abide by his "opinion" on how things should be done...

Our society and our laws allow him as a parent to "force" his kids to abide by his opinion. If you have a problem with the definitions as regards the difference in meaning of the words persecution and subjection (subugation) , I suggest you consult the dictionary.

 

[Hobbit]

Ok, the only thing I'm going to interject here is that the whole "right to choose" slogan is completely irrelevant. Very few people believe that the government should tell you that you can't undergo a medical procedure that poses little to no danger to you or others. For example, nobody's challenging an individual's right to have a gastric bypass surgury, since they rarely have complications and certainly don't harm others.

What it all boils down to is your view on human life. The question at the root of all of this is: "Do you think a fetus is a human being." Those of us who believe a fetus is a human being can no more justify abortion than they could justify shooting a 3-year old in the head because the parents can't feed him. Those of us who believe a fetus is not a person see abortion as nothing worse than, say, breast reduction surgury, just a simple medical procedure to make life easier. That is the issue that this revolves around, and I think the lobbyists used the who 'women's rights' card as a smoke screen to mask the real issue.

Now, I'm not trying to deman anybody's point of view, but that's what I think.

 

[MJDuncan1982]

...nevermind the fact the very idea that 'truth is relative' is illogical..


"There are absolutely no absolute thruths.."

Again, someone as I who would probably consider himself a "relativist" would not use your quoted statement. All I would say is:

The only absolute truth I believe in is that there are none other than this statement.

 

[MJDuncan1982]

There are so many things wrong with this paragraph im not sure where to begin. Ok ill start with grammar. I understand youre trying to get a point across. If youd like to do it better, please use paragraphs when you change subjects. writing in run ons is very distracting and hard to read.

Second, Truth is truth regardless of whether you believe it or not. Thats the beauty of truth. its an anchor in a world of uncertainity. For example. the world is round. That is a truth. You can believe it or not but its not going to change whether its round or not. Believing it is flat does not make it true. If there werent truths that govern the world around us, science would be useless. because the point of science is to learn those truths and use them for our benefit.

The same is true with moral truth. God has revealed moral truths to all people at different times and places. That is why almost all religions have alot of the same moral principles. God give men what they can handle. And those who live moral principles have an anchor to their souls in times of trial and adversity.

As for Abortion and Capital punishment. Im amazed that you cant tell the difference between mudering an innocent child because of the sins of his/her parents and executing a serial killer. One is an act of injustice. the other is justice.

I would agree with your argument up until you analogize emperical truth with moral truth. I believe humans have the same moral principles because we are all humans and are hard-wired to defend the species - which most moral principles seem to do. I believe in one but not the other.