The death of Judas Iscariot

[koshergrl]

Not that it matters, I'm not here to debate whether or not he existed or the truth of the Bible. That's not my interest in this topic at all.

Okay, let's try this one...

Was Judas responsible for his own actions, and therefore to blame for them?

If God has " a plan" (usually how the Nuns were fond of explaining away any horrible tragedy), then clearly, this was a key part of the plan, which really required everyone to play their part. Without any deviation from the script. (even though the script had four different "treatments" as they say in Hollywood.)

So if Judas was part of "the Plan", was he really responsible for his own actions?

If he was just playing his part in the "Plan", then how could he be held to account for his actions?

And if he can't be, how can any of us?

Have a nice evening.

I already hit that a couple of times.
Night!

 

[Cecilie1200]

So, I'm re-reading Acts, and it seems to me that Judas bought some land with his betrayal of Christ earnings, then either fell or threw himself off a cliff, and BROKE IN HALF, and all his bowels (!) spilled out of him, resulting in the field being called "the field of blood" or some such thing.

Now I don't know why I thought Judas hung himself, so I'm curious if anybody else has any other take on the fate of Judas. Anybody except biblical retards like ABS, Loki, and Dragon, that is. Though I'm sure they'll have something supremely idiotic to say.

So did Judas commit suicide, or did he fall from a cliff, jump from a cliff, or hang himself? When? Years after the death of Christ? Shortly after? He had time to buy land, if I'm reading the passage correctly. It's maddeningly and miraculously ambiguous, as much of the bible is until you really start digging. And do we know his fate in the hereafter? Are there references to it? There is a vague reference to it in the Acts but I haven't really researched it yet.

He committed suicide. Specifically, he hanged himself. Matthew 27:5 tells us, "And casting down the pieces of silver in the temple, he departed and went and hanged himself with an halter." This after he tried to give the money back to the priests in remorse. One assumes, then, that he did it shortly after the betrayal. Matthew 27 goes on to tell us that the priests picked up the money and used to to buy a field to be the burying place of strangers, called "the field of blood". Since both that passage and the one in Acts use the exact same words to refer to the field - so that the same field was called in their tongue, Haceldama, that is to say, The field of blood - it can be assumed that when Peter says, "he has possessed a field of the reward of iniquity", he's referring to this field. Peter also says, "and being hanged, burst asunder in the midst: and all his bowels gushed out." Apparently, his body suffered some sort of mischief during or after his hanging.

I suppose the account in Acts might change according to the translation. It sounds to me as though perhaps the body fell and burst open, or possibly burst open when it was found and cut down, which wouldn't be surprising if he'd been dead a bit.

One interesting suggestion I have heard connects the whole "fell and bowels gushed out" thing with Matthew 27:51-52, which tells us that at the moment of Jesus' death, the veil in the Temple was rent in two, and that there was an earthquake. No one knows for sure how long Christ was on the cross before He finally died, but it would have been hours. This theory surmises 6-9 hours, so if Judas hung himself right after the betrayal, it would have been during Jesus' trial and before His crucifixion. The idea is that the earthquake caused the rope to break, dropping his several-hours-dead body onto the ground, where it burst open.

What this mostly shows, of course, is that eyewitness testimonies can differ greatly in details, depending on the focus of attention for the eyewitness.

 

[Cecilie1200]

matthew says he hanged himself....acts says he fell ....

i love how the scholars put this together...he hangs himself...the rope breaks....he slips over a cliff...and burst open....

No idea where you guys are getting a cliff from. Never seen a cliff mentioned in any version that I can recall.

 

[xotoxi]

no one hung himself...he may have hanged himself.....

but he did not hung himself

<--got up in wicked mood.....i am the grammar nazi...well except for my posts

You can say that again!

 

[Cecilie1200]

now ponder this...wouldnt judas be in heaven....he was only doing what he was predetermined by god to do....he was merely a player in a large production that needed 'judas'....and look how his name lives on.....'judas goat' etc....

No such thing as "predetermination". Judas chose to do what he did; he wasn't forced to do it by anyone, let alone by God. God knew he would do it, but that's not the same thing as making him do it.

Judas is most likely in Hell, although obviously, it is not my place to say one way or another. Certainly, the book of Matthew tells us that he repented his action and tried to give the money back, but on the other hand, suicide would itself be a sin. Ultimately, it would be up to God to determine the state of Judas' heart, and judge him accordingly.

 

[Cecilie1200]

how about the verses in acts, so we can read what you have read on the throwing himself over a cliff?

i always thought as mebelle, he threw away the coins and hung himself from a tree!

I understood it that he tried to give the money back to the pharisees, but due to the Hebrew law, could not accept the money or even touch it. After the money was returned, Judas hung himself, and then the Pharisees bought the field where he hung himself and buried him there. It should be in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John to I think.

It's only in Matthew, and is referred to later in Acts. The other three gospels didn't bother to mention it.

I did always get the impression that the field the priests bought to bury strangers in was perhaps the very one Judas hung himself in, since it's unlikely that anyone else would want it after something like that. I just can't see devout Jews farming or herding animals in a field where someone committed suicide.

 

[Cecilie1200]

judas had no choice....that is my point.....

Everyone always has a choice, including Judas. If there were no free will, there would simply be no point to this whole humanity experiment at all. What would God need with a planetful of marionettes?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Anyway, I hope he repented before he died.

Well, he clearly did, according to Matthew. Of course, that leads to the hair-splitting of whether or not one could simply repent sins in that way prior to the death of Jesus, or whether one needed to go through the whole elaborate animal-sacrifice ritual that was standard. And, of course, there's the question of suicide itself as a sin.

As with all of us, it is up to God to decide the state of one's heart, because no human can truly know that. Heck, most of us can't speak accurately to the state of our OWN hearts.

 

[Cecilie1200]

According to Matthews, Judas confronted the Pharissees, repented and then hung himself

In Mark, it is as if Judas intentionally planned to betray Christ, thus suggesting he did not kill himself, at least not over guilt of bertraying him

According to Luke, Judas was possessed by Satan and that led to the betrayal of Jesus

And John just describe Judas as a person that Satan influenced to betray Christ. Does not mention anything about demon possession or the fate of Judas.

The story about Judas follows a similiar patter about Lazarus between John and Luke(John says Lazarus dies and Christ raised him back to life. Luke claims that Lazarus was a begger at the gates of a rich man that died and recieved Heaven while the Wealthy man ent hell(?). The Wealthy man begged a prophet of god to send back Lazarus but the Prophet refuse(Not sure if it was Abraham or some other prophet--I let you guys find that out). These are a few examples of some inconsistantcies that suggest the "witness" did not "witness" anything themselves, thus throwing the validity of their testimony into question.

The "Inconsistencies of the Gospel" is one of the reasons why many Agnostics and Atheists claim the NT is confusing. Implying that God likes to keep the word "confusing" logically confronts the idea that God wants you to know(which means understand) the Word.

This is not meant to undermine your faith. You just happened to stumble upon one of the problems of the NT. The real questions are

1.Who witnessed Judas death?
2.How do they know what he is thinking?
3.How do they know the reasons of why Judas betrayed Jesus?

Well put. I look at those as differing points of view rather then inconsistencies. Its not like they all sat around a table, compared notes, and wrote it all down. They all wrote it as they saw it .

I think it's just like cops at a crime scene taking witness statements. They all notice and emphasize different things, according to their own observational abilities and personal factors. The fact that they each tell the story differently and maybe even seem to contradict each other sometimes doesn't mean the crime didn't happen, or even that they're lying or wrong. You have to put all the stories together and THINK about them to arrive at the most complete picture of what happened.

 

[Cecilie1200]

OK, time for fun: Question: How many ways did Judas die? Answer: four!!

Actually, five, but for the fifth you also have to go outside the Bible to the Gospel of Judas where he was stoned to death by the other disciples. Great breakdown BTW.

Well I think he probably only died once, so he only died one way.

I'm not sure Acts says that he died by falling, and I'm not sure if the people of those days would really know what the cause of death was if there was a lot of trauma to the body. They would surmise, as we do, only with a lot less information.

You also have to consider where Matthew and Peter each got their info, and how long after the event each was speaking. Did they both actually go view the body, or was one or both told what happened by other people? Were both writings done right after the fact, or some time later? And that doesn't even take into account differences in translations, and cultural speech idioms. There are many places in the Bible - or any ancient text, for that matter - where people talk about things in a way that no modern American would consider.

The Bible is not intended to be a news report or a history textbook, and consequently, it doesn't read like either.

 

[JoeB131]

Not that it matters, I'm not here to debate whether or not he existed or the truth of the Bible. That's not my interest in this topic at all.

Okay, let's try this one...

Was Judas responsible for his own actions, and therefore to blame for them?

If God has " a plan" (usually how the Nuns were fond of explaining away any horrible tragedy), then clearly, this was a key part of the plan, which really required everyone to play their part. Without any deviation from the script. (even though the script had four different "treatments" as they say in Hollywood.)

So if Judas was part of "the Plan", was he really responsible for his own actions?

If he was just playing his part in the "Plan", then how could he be held to account for his actions?

And if he can't be, how can any of us?

Have a nice evening.

I already hit that a couple of times.
Night!

MOre like swings and misses...

But I'm always amused by the twists and turns believers have in trying to rationalize the bullshit.

 

[Iridescence]

Okay, let's try this one...

Was Judas responsible for his own actions, and therefore to blame for them?

If God has " a plan" (usually how the Nuns were fond of explaining away any horrible tragedy), then clearly, this was a key part of the plan, which really required everyone to play their part. Without any deviation from the script. (even though the script had four different "treatments" as they say in Hollywood.)

So if Judas was part of "the Plan", was he really responsible for his own actions?

If he was just playing his part in the "Plan", then how could he be held to account for his actions?

And if he can't be, how can any of us?

Have a nice evening.

I already hit that a couple of times.
Night!

MOre like swings and misses...

But I'm always amused by the twists and turns believers have in trying to rationalize the bullshit.

I don't know, Joe... but you seem to under-estimate a lot of people's faith... some of which cannot be undermined by your limited thoughts about such.

Would it matter to many Christians if Jesus was found to have been considered by many of the day as a Palestinian Freedom Fighter? I am not sure. I know my faith as a Christian is not waivering... but I have also dug in deeper than what most seem to have.

Things are rarely as they seem...

 

[JoeB131]

I don't know, Joe... but you seem to under-estimate a lot of people's faith... some of which cannot be undermined by your limited thoughts about such.

Would it matter to many Christians if Jesus was found to have been considered by many of the day as a Palestinian Freedom Fighter? I am not sure. I know my faith as a Christian is not waivering... but I have also dug in deeper than what most seem to have.

Things are rarely as they seem...

I don't underestimate the human capacity for self-delusion for a minute. I think most Christians get by through life because they don't read a lot of the crazy stuff in the bible or find ways to rationalize it...

One could say that the Branch Davidians had faith when they burned down the compound around them. They could say that the People's Temple folks had faith when they drank the koolaid. Andrea Yates had faith when she drowned her kids.

Faith and Reason are like the shoes on your feet. You'll get a lot further with both than just one.

(Didn't come up with that, but I always kind of liked it.)

 

[Iridescence]

Perhaps, Joe, you don't know as much as you'd like to think you do. Many things in life work on the outside of reason and logic.

 

[JoeB131]

Perhaps, Joe, you don't know as much as you'd like to think you do. Many things in life work on the outside of reason and logic.

Not really.

There are things we don't understand yet, I will admit. But they aren't outside the region of reason and logic, we just haven't figured them out yet.

The bible was written by people who didn't understand much of anything. Didn't know what a Germ was. Plagues must be caused by God. Didn't know what plate tectonics were. Must be God being angry about that fornicating again.

So faith says, "We have to find ways to appease God's wrath", while reason says, "We have to find out what the real cause of plagues and earthquakes are, and take preventative measures."

 

[Iridescence]

I don't know... many things past and present may seem forever in a rudimentary state because of our psychological 'advancing'... however, to have the consistent reminder of the roots from which we come could prove to be more to our advantage than not. According to some theories... we are psychologically unraveling... kind of like the theories of the universe expanding...

 

[BluePhantom]

Faith and Reason are like the shoes on your feet. You'll get a lot further with both than just one.

(Didn't come up with that, but I always kind of liked it.)

I would certainly agree with that statement, but would point out that it also suggests that faith is indeed important. Faith without reason tends to lead one into dangerous situations, but reason without faith leaves one spiritually empty and in many cases could be equally as dangerous. Consider:

Without God the average person really has no need to conduct themselves in such a way that is really beneficial to society. As such what would they care if they stole, raped, and pillaged? I think if God was proven to NOT exist you would see a dramatic increase in crime. On the other hand of God was proven to exist I think you would see a dramatic increase in overall terror as people shifted their attention from their daily lives to trying to appease God completely. You might even see new focus on punishments described in Leviticus and people getting stoned to death for eating lobster again.

So it seems in society's best interests that God can neither be proven nor disproven. Faith then becomes a vital element that contributes to an effective flow of operations within society.

 

[SAT2]

Atheists and agnostics are often morally and socially responsible people. Religious faith is not necessary for morality.

 

[earlycuyler]

Perhaps, Joe, you don't know as much as you'd like to think you do. Many things in life work on the outside of reason and logic.

Not really.

There are things we don't understand yet, I will admit. But they aren't outside the region of reason and logic, we just haven't figured them out yet.

The bible was written by people who didn't understand much of anything. Didn't know what a Germ was. Plagues must be caused by God. Didn't know what plate tectonics were. Must be God being angry about that fornicating again.

So faith says, "We have to find ways to appease God's wrath", while reason says, "We have to find out what the real cause of plagues and earthquakes are, and take preventative measures."

Mornin cammmpbell.

 

[BluePhantom]

Atheists and agnostics are often morally and socially responsible people. Religious faith is not necessary for morality.

I would agree but the key word in your statement is "often". There are most certainly those who without faith would conduct themselves in a manner that was less morally appealing. I am not saying everyone would, but a segment of society would probably do exactly what I suggested.

For me it wouldn't really matter because my theology is such that hell does not exist and neither does sin so I choose to act in a moral way because I have searched myself and concluded that immoral behavior (whatever that really is) does not reflect "who I am" and not out of a fear of God or eternal damnation. But that's me, and my religious views are far away from the mainstream.

But for fundamentalist religious people of any religion it would be catastrophic and I think you would see a good segment of them adopt an attitude of "it doesn't matter anymore....fuck it"