The death of Judas Iscariot

[koshergrl]

So...I dont know if I should make a new thread or just attach to this one but..

Another thing I ponder a lot is..if God is God, perfect, omnipotent, righteous, holy, our Creator... then why would he have to sacrifice his own son to himself to ransom the souls of those he created? That's a little convoluted for me. I trust that it's true, I believe it, I don't try to reason it away, but I don't understand it.

So, continuing to read and research Judas, I ran across this (and some of you scholars and those longer in the faith, or more deeply in the faith, than I probably already understand it):

"The Creator of the Universe must abide by His own Laws. He created Adam, placed him in a place where he could be deceived by a Serpent which the Creator also created. Adam and all his offspring fell into a pit and all died. In Adam all died, including you. According to the Mosaic Law, the Creator was responsible for Adam's death and must make restitution. Satan has deceived mankind time and time again. According to the Law, the owner of a beast that has been known to gore in the past, must die along with the beast. However, if a ransom price has been placed upon that man, he may be redeemed. The value the Priest of Israel placed upon Jesus was 30 pieces of silver, which Judas put into the temple. Lawfully, Jesus, who the Father gave all things to, and who all things are of, to, and through (Rom.11:36), must die because of allowing Satan to kill Adam and his offspring, but Jesus was redeemed with the 30 pieces of silver. "

Judas Iscariot ? In Heaven or in Hell? Did Judas go to Hell?

I get it! God has to act in accordance with the Law, even though he created the Law...and by LAW, if he caused death, he must provide restitution.

Christ is our restitution. PERFECT.

 

[JoeB131]

Maybe you and the other poster Cammmpbell could get a group discount with a local mental health professional for your unresolved childhood trama issues.

Maybe you can stop being such a whiny, snivelly little twit, but you can't hold out too much hope.

Anyway, I consider myself lucky. I got through 12 years of Catholic schools and didn't get ass-raped by a priest.

Can't say that for the rest of my fellow Catholics....

Wow, I figured you was an escaped Mormon.

Well, you'd be wrong again.... but then again, you TH mutants always did engage in all sorts of wild speculation when you couldn't answer a point.

 

[JoeB131]

So...I dont know if I should make a new thread or just attach to this one but..

Another thing I ponder a lot is..if God is God, perfect, omnipotent, righteous, holy, our Creator... then why would he have to sacrifice his own son to himself to ransom the souls of those he created? That's a little convoluted for me. I trust that it's true, I believe it, I don't try to reason it away, but I don't understand it.

So, continuing to read and research Judas, I ran across this (and some of you scholars and those longer in the faith, or more deeply in the faith, than I probably already understand it):

"The Creator of the Universe must abide by His own Laws. He created Adam, placed him in a place where he could be deceived by a Serpent which the Creator also created. Adam and all his offspring fell into a pit and all died. In Adam all died, including you. According to the Mosaic Law, the Creator was responsible for Adam's death and must make restitution. Satan has deceived mankind time and time again. According to the Law, the owner of a beast that has been known to gore in the past, must die along with the beast. However, if a ransom price has been placed upon that man, he may be redeemed. The value the Priest of Israel placed upon Jesus was 30 pieces of silver, which Judas put into the temple. Lawfully, Jesus, who the Father gave all things to, and who all things are of, to, and through (Rom.11:36), must die because of allowing Satan to kill Adam and his offspring, but Jesus was redeemed with the 30 pieces of silver. "

Judas Iscariot ? In Heaven or in Hell? Did Judas go to Hell?

I get it! God has to act in accordance with the Law, even though he created the Law...and by LAW, if he caused death, he must provide restitution.

Christ is our restitution. PERFECT.

Wow, that's like insane.

Let's not forget what Adam's horrible sin was.

He ate an apple.

He didn't offer his daughters up for gang rape and then have drunken incest with them himself.

He wasn't willing to murder his own son as a sacrfice to prove his loyalty, like Abraham.

He didn't murder thousands of people like Joshua did in an act of "ethnic cleansing" that would make Saddam blush.

He didn't butcher his daughter to fulfill a haughty and foolish oath like Jephthah.

He didn't send a man off to die so he could have his wife, like David did.

(Again, these are all people the bible calls "holy" "righteous" and "men of faith.)

Nope, all poor Adam did was eat an apple.

 

[koshergrl]

You really haven't spent much time pondering the bible, have you, Joe/Cammmpbell?

I'm sorry for you.

 

[JoeB131]

You inflict nothing. You are weak and insecure and really, not that smart. You are So weak and insecure you have to use multiple accounts on several message boards to do your bashing because you lack the ability to make your point. Now you claimed I had 20 usernames on the other boards, and I was called out on it. Pleas show them. The mods here would be interested to see that to make sure that I am not doing that here as well. I will point out all yours Cammpbell, I mean Joe and we let them decide whats what ?

I claimed nothing of the sort... I said that the nutters on TownHall said that (when in fact, I never operated more than one SN at a time.

Now, if I or someone else hurt your feelings on TH, that's really not germaine to what we are talking about here, is it? I mean, if you want to discuss how I hurt you personally, I'd be happy to discuss that with you...

 

[BluePhantom]

So...I dont know if I should make a new thread or just attach to this one but..

Another thing I ponder a lot is..if God is God, perfect, omnipotent, righteous, holy, our Creator... then why would he have to sacrifice his own son to himself to ransom the souls of those he created? That's a little convoluted for me. I trust that it's true, I believe it, I don't try to reason it away, but I don't understand it.

So, continuing to read and research Judas, I ran across this (and some of you scholars and those longer in the faith, or more deeply in the faith, than I probably already understand it):

"The Creator of the Universe must abide by His own Laws. He created Adam, placed him in a place where he could be deceived by a Serpent which the Creator also created. Adam and all his offspring fell into a pit and all died. In Adam all died, including you. According to the Mosaic Law, the Creator was responsible for Adam's death and must make restitution. Satan has deceived mankind time and time again. According to the Law, the owner of a beast that has been known to gore in the past, must die along with the beast. However, if a ransom price has been placed upon that man, he may be redeemed. The value the Priest of Israel placed upon Jesus was 30 pieces of silver, which Judas put into the temple. Lawfully, Jesus, who the Father gave all things to, and who all things are of, to, and through (Rom.11:36), must die because of allowing Satan to kill Adam and his offspring, but Jesus was redeemed with the 30 pieces of silver. "

Judas Iscariot ? In Heaven or in Hell? Did Judas go to Hell?

I get it! God has to act in accordance with the Law, even though he created the Law...and by LAW, if he caused death, he must provide restitution.

Christ is our restitution. PERFECT.

Ok let's look at this point by point. Adam was not deceived, Eve was. Adam knew exactly what he was doing and chose it. Therefore, by the story's end Adam was not "killed by Satan" as much as Adam made the choice of mortality, knowledge, etc. Prior to the sacrifice of Jesus, Satan had the power to grant things of an earthly form else he would have not been able to tempt Jesus with the promise of a kingdom. IOW if Satan could not deliver it then he really had no power to tempt Jesus at all. Following the sacrifice, Jesus removed Satan's power to grant such things of a spiritual nature as he offered Jesus. If we are to accept the concept of Jesus' sacrifice we must accept His (and God's) victory in totality which means Satan is spiritually dead at that point and is relegated to the physical.

Next if "the beast and the owner" must be killed by Mosiac Law it must also mean a) the debt (which is debatable to have existed) has either not been paid as Satan still thrives, or b) the debt has been paid by the death of Satan through the sacrifice of Jesus and the ransom of Judas. Yet if we accept that the sacrifice of Jesus represents redemption then the latter MUST be true and as such "sin" and "affront to God" no longer exist.

So to your previous comment of "what keeps me up at night is worrying about the sins committed after being saved"....don't worry about it. They don't exist anymore.

 

[earlycuyler]

So...I dont know if I should make a new thread or just attach to this one but..

Another thing I ponder a lot is..if God is God, perfect, omnipotent, righteous, holy, our Creator... then why would he have to sacrifice his own son to himself to ransom the souls of those he created? That's a little convoluted for me. I trust that it's true, I believe it, I don't try to reason it away, but I don't understand it.

So, continuing to read and research Judas, I ran across this (and some of you scholars and those longer in the faith, or more deeply in the faith, than I probably already understand it):

"The Creator of the Universe must abide by His own Laws. He created Adam, placed him in a place where he could be deceived by a Serpent which the Creator also created. Adam and all his offspring fell into a pit and all died. In Adam all died, including you. According to the Mosaic Law, the Creator was responsible for Adam's death and must make restitution. Satan has deceived mankind time and time again. According to the Law, the owner of a beast that has been known to gore in the past, must die along with the beast. However, if a ransom price has been placed upon that man, he may be redeemed. The value the Priest of Israel placed upon Jesus was 30 pieces of silver, which Judas put into the temple. Lawfully, Jesus, who the Father gave all things to, and who all things are of, to, and through (Rom.11:36), must die because of allowing Satan to kill Adam and his offspring, but Jesus was redeemed with the 30 pieces of silver. "

Judas Iscariot ? In Heaven or in Hell? Did Judas go to Hell?

I get it! God has to act in accordance with the Law, even though he created the Law...and by LAW, if he caused death, he must provide restitution.

Christ is our restitution. PERFECT.

A good study guide helps. There is also one called the basic bible truths and others that help allot to. Leviticus is a good old testament book as well as a few others that helps some if you can get through it.

 

[koshergrl]

Lol..then I have to scramble to see if the "insight" I glean comes from half baked loons as well...that's the problem with the internet. I work and have kids, and can't spend a lot of time at the church bible studies, the ladies circles, that sort of thing, so I sort of grab what I can when I can and sometimes I grab something that's from a discredited source.

Which is why I spend most of my time just in the Bible; my own comprehension is fairly good, with prayer, and I look up the particular bits that confuse me as appropriate, and can usually feel when it's right. I know it in my heart. This feels right to me, but I'm going to have to look some more and get some back up information. I guess the Pentecostals don't like that guy much..I'm not Pentecostal, but who knows, maybe there's something to it. I haven't run across anything of his that says everybody is going to heaven but that seems to be what they say he's saying.

Interesting, for me, anyway.

 

[koshergrl]

Oh sorry, sidetracked...but I do have good study guides through Sunday school. I just have questions that arise outside of their parameters as we're going along. Eventually we'll get to it, but I just sort of try to figure out what I can when I feel compelled.

 

[earlycuyler]

You inflict nothing. You are weak and insecure and really, not that smart. You are So weak and insecure you have to use multiple accounts on several message boards to do your bashing because you lack the ability to make your point. Now you claimed I had 20 usernames on the other boards, and I was called out on it. Pleas show them. The mods here would be interested to see that to make sure that I am not doing that here as well. I will point out all yours Cammpbell, I mean Joe and we let them decide whats what ?

I claimed nothing of the sort... I said that the nutters on TownHall said that (when in fact, I never operated more than one SN at a time.

Now, if I or someone else hurt your feelings on TH, that's really not germaine to what we are talking about here, is it? I mean, if you want to discuss how I hurt you personally, I'd be happy to discuss that with you...

You said I was pegged for using 20 usernames there. I asked by whom. My feelings are not hurt, its just that you are dick. You go on about sticking to a topic, talk trash to people, or talk to them like there shit. You basically go into a thread like this to start shit. Most on Town Hall are ok folks until some retard starts shit with multiple accounts and telling them how stupid they are. Its even more sad is you have to use multiple accounts to do it. You are not here to add any input, only throw insults and be disrespectful. Now go change your tampon and shut your ass.

 

[JoeB131]

[
You said I was pegged for using 20 usernames there. I asked by whom. My feelings are not hurt, its just that you are dick. You go on about sticking to a topic, talk trash to people, or talk to them like there shit. You basically go into a thread like this to start shit. Most on Town Hall are ok folks until some retard starts shit with multiple accounts and telling them how stupid they are. Its even more sad is you have to use multiple accounts to do it. You are not here to add any input, only throw insults and be disrespectful. Now go change your tampon and shut your ass.

Actually, if you post on TownHall, you are pretty much a special sort of right wing moron.

Matthew and USAR and the other racists would be very happy there, but most sensible people wouldn't.

Never said you were pegged for anything. I honestly take you at your word that you were just "lurking" there like you claim. My point was that people there thought I was a lot of people I wasn't... or that I was having conversations with myself... when in fact while I changed screen names a couple of times, I was pretty much on the up and up about being the same guy.

And I freely admit, I can be a dick when people insist on being stupid.

You come to me with a well-thought out argument, I treat it with respect.

You come to me with whiny, "God has a plan" BS, I'll treat you like you are silly.

And it isn't a left/right thing. Sometimes I have left-leaning views on issues, sometimes right leaning views. Sometimes I go completely out of the box and tell both sides why they are full of it.

ON a thread like this, I find it offensive that people keep making excuses for these horrible stories in the bible, and are frequently unaware of what is in the bible.

There are TWO death of Judas stories in the Bible, that contradict each other. They both can't be right.

 

[koshergrl]

Well then, maybe Judas didn't die at all!

 

[JoeB131]

Well then, maybe Judas didn't die at all!

Or perhaps he never existed.

Perhaps the narrative was made up or cobbled together from other stories.

Here's the thing. The very first Christian writings are not the Gospels, but Paul's Epistles.

Not a one of them mentions Judas.

So it almost begs the question, was Judas a literary invention made up later when filling out the backstory of a Jesus who might have been a composite character.

As I pointed out earlier, Luke (who mentions Judas' death in Acts) and Matthew worked off of Mark. 90% of Mark is repeated in those other two gospels, which indicates that either 1) It was the source or 2) all three Gospels were copied from another source gospel that is lost to history today.

(John's Gospel is an entirely different kind of work.)

So if Mark was written first, why didn't he mention Judas' death? Just like he didn't mention any details of Jesus' childhood or ancestory.

Now, here's the thing. There were hundreds of Gospels that didn't make it into the bible, including one supposedly written by Judas himself... The Gospels that were chosen were chosen by the Roman Government when it was in the process of making Christianity the State Religion.

So what was the real story?

 

[earlycuyler]

[
You said I was pegged for using 20 usernames there. I asked by whom. My feelings are not hurt, its just that you are dick. You go on about sticking to a topic, talk trash to people, or talk to them like there shit. You basically go into a thread like this to start shit. Most on Town Hall are ok folks until some retard starts shit with multiple accounts and telling them how stupid they are. Its even more sad is you have to use multiple accounts to do it. You are not here to add any input, only throw insults and be disrespectful. Now go change your tampon and shut your ass.

Actually, if you post on TownHall, you are pretty much a special sort of right wing moron.

Matthew and USAR and the other racists would be very happy there, but most sensible people wouldn't.

Never said you were pegged for anything. I honestly take you at your word that you were just "lurking" there like you claim. My point was that people there thought I was a lot of people I wasn't... or that I was having conversations with myself... when in fact while I changed screen names a couple of times, I was pretty much on the up and up about being the same guy.

And I freely admit, I can be a dick when people insist on being stupid.

You come to me with a well-thought out argument, I treat it with respect.

You come to me with whiny, "God has a plan" BS, I'll treat you like you are silly.

And it isn't a left/right thing. Sometimes I have left-leaning views on issues, sometimes right leaning views. Sometimes I go completely out of the box and tell both sides why they are full of it.

ON a thread like this, I find it offensive that people keep making excuses for these horrible stories in the bible, and are frequently unaware of what is in the bible.

There are TWO death of Judas stories in the Bible, that contradict each other. They both can't be right.

Now you saved me allot of typing by demonstrating your pattern . Soon you will be posting under the cammmpbell name, if not tonight, then in the morning some time and to be correct about it you only fessed up to about four, but got called out on a few more. As for the stories of Judas in the Bible, you dont even consider the fact that they could be two different accounts, or written at different times, regardless that is not your concern. You are in this thread for no other reason then to spout your hate. And the sad thing is, its the same old shit. Google your own user name, you dont even switch it up at all. Its just the same old ca ca.

 

[koshergrl]

Judas is mentioned in the OT.

 

[koshergrl]

Not that it matters, I'm not here to debate whether or not he existed or the truth of the Bible. That's not my interest in this topic at all.

 

[SAT2]

The reasoning for substitutionary atonement is terribly convoluted, and isn't accepted by many denominations.

Good fathers do not offer their children as human sacrifices. Jesus' death was the predictable outcome for a revolutionary leader against a corrupt government. Jesus could have called down angels to defend himself, but he lived and died with us, as we live and die.

 

[earlycuyler]

Not that it matters, I'm not here to debate whether or not he existed or the truth of the Bible. That's not my interest in this topic at all.

Wasn't it "what made him explode" ? It was a navy seal sniper with a Barret 50 cal sniper rifle.

 

[JoeB131]

Not that it matters, I'm not here to debate whether or not he existed or the truth of the Bible. That's not my interest in this topic at all.

Okay, let's try this one...

Was Judas responsible for his own actions, and therefore to blame for them?

If God has " a plan" (usually how the Nuns were fond of explaining away any horrible tragedy), then clearly, this was a key part of the plan, which really required everyone to play their part. Without any deviation from the script. (even though the script had four different "treatments" as they say in Hollywood.)

So if Judas was part of "the Plan", was he really responsible for his own actions?

If he was just playing his part in the "Plan", then how could he be held to account for his actions?

And if he can't be, how can any of us?

Have a nice evening.

 

[koshergrl]

Not that it matters, I'm not here to debate whether or not he existed or the truth of the Bible. That's not my interest in this topic at all.

Wasn't it "what made him explode" ? It was a navy seal sniper with a Barret 50 cal sniper rifle.

Lol...no, I started out wondering about the fate of Judas, not so much what made him explode (I know what sort of things can do that) but how the two versions work together...