Zone1 is the church built upon Peter? HELL NO

[hadit]

Because it seems like you have an ax to grind.

I'm discussing dogma with a Catholic. Perhaps that's why you think that. I also discuss dogma with others, and if you observe those conversations, you might think the same about them.

 

[ding]

No, it's simply speaking at the grave of a loved one that's moved on, something that can be very therapeutic for someone that's grieving.

That has nothing to do with what I'm saying.

It has everything to do with what you believe.

Let's establish a couple of beliefs that you believe are biblical and then I'll show you why praying for the dead makes sense.

1. Do you believe God knows the future? Is that biblical?
2. Do you believe that God hears appeals and can soften his stance based upon those appeals? Is that biblical?

 

[ding]

I'm discussing dogma with a Catholic. Perhaps that's why you think that. I also discuss dogma with others, and if you observe those conversations, you might think the same about them.

If that were the case you wouldn't be saying Catholics pray to Mary.

 

[hadit]

If that were the case you wouldn't be saying Catholics pray to Mary.

Some do, but if you've perused the discussion I've been involved in, you'll see where I am on that.

 

[hadit]

It has everything to do with what you believe.

Let's establish a couple of beliefs that you believe are biblical and then I'll show you why praying for the dead makes sense.

1. Do you believe God knows the future? Is that biblical?

Of course He knows the future. Always has.

2. Do you believe that God hears appeals and can soften his stance based upon those appeals? Is that biblical?

If He "softens" His stance, He knew in advance exactly what He was going to do. You're asking if we can influence God's will, and that's a very large theological question. Do we actually cause God to change His mind, or are we just doing what He planned for us to do in the first place? I simply can't tell you for sure, but I do know He commanded us to pray, to make our petitions known to Him. Beyond that, it's all up to Him.

 

[zaangalewa]

The only thing worth responding to is the fact I know you know my testimony is true.

Rhethorical nonsense.

What is required is for you to put this to the test and receive your own testimony by the Holy Ghost. You cannot exist forever on borrowed testimony. Connect with our missionaries from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in your city.

Are you mad or did you not hear what I said about the founder of your religion?

They will lay out the only prescribed method to know if it is true starting from James 1:5-9. Then, once you read The Book of Mormon,

After about 50 pages I stopped to read "Das Kapital" from Marx. But when I read a book from Konrad Lorenz after 50 pages I saw that I did not really understand how innovative it had been what he wrote and started again to read. But will I survive to read 50 pages of a book with the title "Book of Hormon" without laughing myself to death? What's written in your famous book?

similar plus additional instructions. Without this, your words to me mean nothing

Exactly. Not only my words mean nothing to you. All words of all people who are not Mormons mean nothing to you.

because I’ve gone through this process of knowing and conversion. May God teach you patience.

We will see what the next 13.8 billion years will bring.

 

[ding]

Some do, but if you've perused the discussion I've been involved in, you'll see where I am on that.

I don't know any that do. I'm pretty sure I know where you are at on that without reading the entire discussion.

 

[ding]

Of course He knows the future. Always has.

If He "softens" His stance, He knew in advance exactly what He was going to do. You're asking if we can influence God's will, and that's a very large theological question. Do we actually cause God to change His mind, or are we just doing what He planned for us to do in the first place? I simply can't tell you for sure, but I do know He commanded us to pray, to make our petitions known to Him. Beyond that, it's all up to Him.

This is a biblical example of petitioning the Lord. It's purpose is to show the Lord is reasonable. When we pray for the souls of the dead we are petitioning God to have mercy on their souls. It's not really something that can be done until after they die. But since God knows all things, he knows of our petitions for the souls of those that have passed even before those souls have passed. So it's not for nothing.

Genesis 18:17-33
The LORD considered: Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, now that he is to become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth are to find blessing in him? Indeed, I have singled him out that he may direct his children and his household in the future to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just, so that the LORD may put into effect for Abraham the promises he made about him. So the LORD said: The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great, and their sin so grave, that I must go down to see whether or not their actions are as bad as the cry against them that comes to me. I mean to find out. As the men turned and walked on toward Sodom, Abraham remained standing before the LORD. Then Abraham drew near and said: “Will you really sweep away the righteous with the wicked? Suppose there were fifty righteous people in the city; would you really sweep away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people within it? Far be it from you to do such a thing, to kill the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike! Far be it from you! Should not the judge of all the world do what is just?” The LORD replied: If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake. Abraham spoke up again: “See how I am presuming to speak to my Lord, though I am only dust and ashes! What if there are five less than fifty righteous people? Will you destroy the whole city because of those five?” I will not destroy it, he answered, if I find forty-five there. But Abraham persisted, saying, “What if only forty are found there?” He replied: I will refrain from doing it for the sake of the forty. Then he said, “Do not let my Lord be angry if I go on. What if only thirty are found there?” He replied: I will refrain from doing it if I can find thirty there. Abraham went on, “Since I have thus presumed to speak to my Lord, what if there are no more than twenty?” I will not destroy it, he answered, for the sake of the twenty. But he persisted: “Please, do not let my Lord be angry if I speak up this last time. What if ten are found there?” For the sake of the ten, he replied, I will not destroy it. The LORD departed as soon as he had finished speaking with Abraham, and Abraham returned home.

 

[Cougarbear]

Rhethorical nonsense.



Are you mad or did you not hear what I said about the founder of your religion?



After about 50 pages I stopped to read "Das Kapital" from Marx. But when I read a book from Konrad Lorenz after 50 pages I saw that I did not really understand how innovative it had been what he wrote and started again to read. But will I survive to read 50 pages of a book with the title "Book of Hormon" without laughing myself to death? What's written in your famous book?



Exactly. Not only my words mean nothing to you. All words of all people who are not Mormons mean nothing to you.



We will see what the next 13.8 billion years will bring.

James 1:5-9, " If any of you lack wisdom (that's everyone), let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and apbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But, let him ask in fatih, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive anything of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted."

Brother of Low Degree, you are unstable as you went into reading the Book of Joseph with a double mind as shown by the fact you only got 50 pages written and made judgments without praying and asking God. Your faith therefore wavered and are being tossed to and fro by the sea of lies by Satan. You did not ask in faith. You did not read with faith. Therefore, you gained nothing from the Holy Ghost.

 

[Meriweather]

Again, why not ask the ENTIRE body?

Sometimes it is the entire body. At every Mass, for example. You didn't think it happens this way?

 

[Meriweather]

I do not support things that violate Scripture, that is true.

Any "violation" of scripture is addressed in scripture. Otherwise, using a dishwasher would be a violation of scripture as scripture doesn't mention appliances.

 

[Meriweather]

An entire belief system should have more than some peoples' experiences in support of it.

What is scripture but peoples' experiences of God in our midst?

 

[Meriweather]

and it does

No

 

[zaangalewa]

James 1:5-9, " If any of you lack wisdom (that's everyone), let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and apbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But, let him ask in fatih, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive anything of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted."

Brother of Low Degree, you are unstable as you went into reading the Book of Joseph with a double mind as shown by the fact you only got 50 pages written and made judgments without praying and asking God. Your faith therefore wavered and are being tossed to and fro by the sea of lies by Satan. You did not ask in faith. You did not read with faith. Therefore, you gained nothing from the Holy Ghost.

no comment

 

[Meriweather]

Like I said, when you have to invent things to explain away plain Scripture, there's a problem.

There is no "explaining away" Scripture. We seem to have two perspectives. I see your view of both God and Scripture as tiny...minuscule even: A place that one is boxed into, even trapped--by their own mind.

I see open doors and possibilities where God is beyond our best imaginings; and his creation...so many good opportunities.

There is a difference in confining God to one's understanding/interpretations of Bible writs--and opening up one's own spirit to the Spirit of God.

 

[hadit]

Sometimes it is the entire body. At every Mass, for example. You didn't think it happens this way?

As I was asking, though, what makes M&S more special than your grandparents? IOW, are they not also equipped to hear the entire body calling them to pray and doing so?

 

[hadit]

Any "violation" of scripture is addressed in scripture. Otherwise, using a dishwasher would be a violation of scripture as scripture doesn't mention appliances.

If Scripture was to condemn washing dishes without touching them, it would be, so ridiculous. Scripture does, OTOH, forbid necromancy, so why dabble in talking with the dead?

 

[hadit]

There is no "explaining away" Scripture. We seem to have two perspectives. I see your view of both God and Scripture as tiny...minuscule even: A place that one is boxed into, even trapped--by their own mind.

I see open doors and possibilities where God is beyond our best imaginings; and his creation...so many good opportunities.

There is a difference in confining God to one's understanding/interpretations of Bible writs--and opening up one's own spirit to the Spirit of God.

But while opening up to the Holy Spirit, one must at the same time remember that He will not violate the Word of God. If you find that limiting, watch out.

 

[Cougarbear]

no comment

Hear nothing good, see nothing good, speak nothing good. Just stick your head in the sand and hope God will forget about His instructions to James 1 and Moroni 10.

 

[Meriweather]

As I was asking, though, what makes M&S more special than your grandparents? IOW, are they not also equipped to hear the entire body calling them to pray and doing so?

Pass. It is like trying to explain in Swahili why rocks are so soft. First untie your own knots, and then perhaps there is something to discuss.