The Bible is Fiction!
- Thread starter SlateRockwell
- Start date
Good advice. The Bible is not a continuous chronicle that somebody sat down and wrote, but is a somewhat sloppily edited together collection of history, prophecy, poetry, teachings, statements of law, metaphor, imagery, allegory, and parables almost all recalled from oral tradition. To read 21st century culture and morality into those ancient cultures and times is as silly as expecting primitive aboringinal tribes to understand the practice quantum physics as taught in US universities.
But there are verifications for much of Biblical content including Old Testament content. For instance a fairly recently excavated "Merneptah Stele" in Egypt, estimated 1210 BC, boasts of defeating Egypt's enemies and strong reference to those being the Edomites and the Israelites. Pottery excavated from Egypt's 12th Dynasty also shows evidence of a Hebrew presence as does the ancient Egyptian fable "The Story of Sinuhe". The name of Jacob-el (Jacob was the father of the 12 tribes of Israel) is also inscribed on excavated artifacts from Hykes Scarebs in Egypt.
So to say that there is zero evidence of a Hebrew presence in Egypt simply does not hold up. It would not be common, however, that the Eyptian heirarchy would write into their own history that one of their own (Moses) had been able to fool them into believing he was Egyptian and had outsmarted and defeated them. So we go to the Hebew sources for that story. Is all of it true or some legend or allegory? I don't know. But they have recently discovered and photographed gold plated chariot wheels at the bottom of the Red Sea. So who knows?
In the past year, I attended a lecture by the PhD archeologist/anthropologist who has been doing a major archeological excavation in Jordan for the past several years. The further they have gotten with the project, the more he is becoming convinced that they are in fact excavating the ancient (Blblical) City of Sodom. Will that hold up? I don't know that either, but I think it interesting. I think anybody interested in ancient history would find it interesting.
Don't want to believe the Bible? That's anybody's right. But for those who want to know something of the JudeoChristian heritage, there is so much to support so much of it, and it is fascinating stuff.
Last edited:
uptownlivin90
Rebelious Youngin
Read:
The Book of Jasher
An apocryphal Hebrew book left out of the original cannon which is mentioned and the Bible and was used by the ancients as a record of early history.
The Kolbrin Bible
An interesting book containing what the author claims are ancient texts from Egypt around the time of the Exodus. They haven't been varified but they are interesting to say the least.
Papyrus Ipuwer
Moses is mentioned by major historians:
Herodotus
Josephus
If you understood Egyptian history you'd know that Moses' bloodline existed within Egypt and Ethiopia for thousands of years after the so-called "exodus". Ancient legend places Moses as becoming Ethiopian King after he is ran out into the desert from Egypt for defending the Hebrew man and killing the Egyptian. (Look this up I'm completely serious). this is recorded in detail in the Book of Jasher, and various historians. If you begin to study hard you'll find that many people claim that the Exodus occured somewhere within the Eighteenth Dynasty. This I don't believe to be true at all. Historically the best place to put the exodus is during the seventeenth. It was at the end of this dynasty that the Eighteenth dynasty came out of the south, amongst the Ethiopians and Cushites. This is the break down of the pharaoh's of the seventeenth & eighteenth dynasties:
SEVENTEENTH
Rahotep Sekhemrewahkhaw
Sobekemsaf I Sekhemreshedtawy
Intef VI Sekhemrewepmaat
Intef VII Nebkheperre
Intef VIII Sekhemreherhermaat
Sobekemsaf II Sekhemrewadjkhaw
Senakhtenre
Seqenenre
Kamose
Seventeenth dynasty of Egypt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
EIGHTEENTH DYNASTY
Ahmose I
Ahmenhotep I
Thutmose I
Thutmose II
Thutmose III
Hatshepsut
Amenhotep II
Amenhotep IV
Ankhkheperure Smenkhkare
Tutankhaten
Kheperkheperure Ay
Djeserkheperure-setpenre Horemheb
You'll note that at the end of the seventeenth dynasty the names begin to change:
Kamose
Ahmose
Thutmose
According to many sources the name "Moses" is an egyptian name, related directly to the name "Thutmose".
Moses - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Not saying that it neccesarily HAS to mean that these pharaohs were related to Moses, just saying it's an interesting thought.
Hehehe.
There was a flood.
Do I believe it to have covered the whole Earth as we understand it now? No. That would be utterly rediculous. However, let's assume for the moment that you personally believe the whole of the scriptures to be historically accurate, like I do and walk through this process together.
At this point in time civilization was at it's peak for the time being. This was a time when man was while separated by township and somewhat by tribe, were all living in one area and spoke the same language for the most part, again taking the Bible completely literally. The Bible doesn't specify exactly where this area may have been. However the evidence (just by where the earliest civilizations in history have been found) suggests one of two places. The Nile basin or Mesopotamia, or a combination of both.
I lean towards Mesopotamia simply because after the flood this is where Noah made his home, it would make sense then for him to have already have lived there prior to the flood. Now stay with me here on this one, could it have been possible that the whole Earth was flooded? No. Could it have been possible that this individual area in which civilization at the time existed in for the most part was flooded? Absolutely.
Genesis 6:13 says this:
"And ELOHIYM said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth."
The point of the flood was not to destroy the planet. It was to destroy mankind. Those who say "well the Bible says the water rose above every mountain and yatta-yatta-yatta", the Bible is pretty good at imagery. If you actually read the account the idea was not that the whole Earth was flooded, it was just a way of describing a really big flood. Rhetoric. Descriptive writing. We know for a FACT from the scriptures that the flood DID NOT cover the whole Earth because there were group called the Nephilim that God set out to destroy in the first place that survived it. (Genesis 6:1-5; Numbers 12:13)
Now for the animals. Let's say you live in mesopotamia. Your a farmer, as Noah more than likely was, and you live off of the land. Would it be plausible for a God to tell you to go all the way to Africa somewhere to get an elephant that you've probably never even heard of? Of course not. Especially since we just noted that Elephants wouldn't even experience the flood int he first place, and neither would just about any other animal outside of mesopotamia. Look at YHWH's original command:
"Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female." Genesis 7:2
Clean and unclean beast refers to cattle. That which is clean (kosher) and that which is not (unkosher). This tells me right there he was talking about domesticated animals, and I'm pretty sure Noah being a farmer understood exactly what was needed and why.
"Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth." Genesis 7:3
Fowl of the air. Birds. Domesticated animals for food and clothing.
Look at Genesis 8:1 to prove my point:
"And ELOHIYM remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and ELOHIYM made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters assuaged;"
Also taking into historical context another reason why I lean towards mesopotamia as being the place where the flood occured there is historical evidence outside of the Bible comming out of early mesopotamian civilizations that have recorded myths regarding a great flood as well.
Sumerian Flood Story
Again, not saying you have to take it literally, but there is evidence on both sides.
Last edited:
The Bible is the greatest book in many areas as a guide for life but to claim that it was anything other than translations by ordinary scribes under the tenure and censorship of King James is fiction.
The Bible is also a great historical account but there are many inconsistencies in the Bible. After all, man translated it.
Many quote the book of Deutronomy in many areas as proof of the completeness of the Bible as all accurate. God states in this book that those that do as he says will never be infertile, nor will their cows!, and those believers will never, ever get sick. God says the Israelites will destroy ALL peoples they encounter but contradicts himself in JOshua and Judges stating there are some peoples that they just could not destroy. I guess God was a bad war handicapper. How could that be as God knows all and controls all?
In Samuel God states that David's Kingdom will last forever. It didn't make it past 400 years and was destroyed afterSolomon's death.
It is all there and truly amazes me how many claim faith and never have read and studied the Bible.
Every book in the Bible has dozens of inconsistencies in it. Man wrote it.
The Bible is also a great historical account but there are many inconsistencies in the Bible. After all, man translated it.
Many quote the book of Deutronomy in many areas as proof of the completeness of the Bible as all accurate. God states in this book that those that do as he says will never be infertile, nor will their cows!, and those believers will never, ever get sick. God says the Israelites will destroy ALL peoples they encounter but contradicts himself in JOshua and Judges stating there are some peoples that they just could not destroy. I guess God was a bad war handicapper. How could that be as God knows all and controls all?
In Samuel God states that David's Kingdom will last forever. It didn't make it past 400 years and was destroyed afterSolomon's death.
It is all there and truly amazes me how many claim faith and never have read and studied the Bible.
Every book in the Bible has dozens of inconsistencies in it. Man wrote it.
King James did authorize the first English translation, but you would be very wrong that the King James is the only translation out there. There are many translations that have been derived from exhaustive research and study of the most ancient Hebrew texts that we have as well as the oldest of the Aramaic and Greek texts that are available to us. And many that are superior in accuracy to the King James version.
There are certain 'scribal glosses' identified as probable corruption of the text here and there, but these do not detract from nor change the message within the general text. The inconsistencies do not--repeat do not--come from errors in translation, but rather from differences of accounts from eye witnesses, variations in the oral tradition from people widely separated geographically, to failure to understand the difference between symbolism, poetry, allegory, imagery and what is intended to be statement of doctrine and/or a recount of actual history.
The book of Deuteronomy, as all other Old Testament manuscripts, was written from oral tradition or as theological statements. Yes, the words were written down by human beings who evolved in their understanding of God, of themselves, of their leaders, of their destiny throughout their history. The oldest Old Testament manuscripts are separated from the most recent by millenia.
But did the words come exclusively from humans? Because the manuscripts have been preserved and have endured despite intense efforts to obliterate them; because there is so much that modern science, archeology, anthropology etc. has been able to confirm of them; because the Bible remains the single best selling book in the world and is translated into more languages than any other book has ever been; and because I have personally seen so many lives changed and transformed for the better as a result of the words written; I have to believe that much or all of it was inspired and/or preserved by God even if he didn't use his own finger to burn the words into the parchment.
Apparently, you haven't actually read the word of God.
God said:
Great. Another God-hating fuckwit on the forum shoving his religion off on everyone else.
Great. Another God-hating fuckwit on the forum shoving his religion off on everyone else.
as opposed to a god loving fuckwit on the forum shoving his religion off on everyone else....
myself ....i care for neither
He did start a good discussion though. This i an interesting thread.
I have a friend that I'm sure would love to join in, but I can't get him to join any site whatsoever.
Last edited:
No geology anywhere supports the Bible account of a flood.
As I stated, the Bible is a great book and compass for living.
Sad that many Christians use it not to love others as Jesus did but to condemn them.
Explain to me how eye witness accounts made God state things that never came true and in fact, the opposite happened. How could God be wrong?
Yet EVERY ancient civilization has a flood story. Would that not suggest that there was one? Did it cover the whole Earth? I don't think so, but I can surely believe that those who were experiencing a major flood in that part of the world and who could not see dry land in any direction might believe that it covered the whole world and would write it down in that way.
Such stories no doubt did tend to take on various flavors and embellishments in the telling and retelling just as the stories of our own historical figures--George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Daniel Boone, Davy Crockett etc.--have acquired some legendary embellishments in the telling and retelling. But just because every detail in the legends can't be verified doesn't mean that there is no basis of any kind for the story.
In my not all that distant past I was a licensed insurance adjuster and worked many accidents. I have yet to record any two eye witness accounts of those accidents that didn't differ somewhat in the details.
You take any group of people who were old enough to vividly remember the day that Kennedy was shot--or more recently the attacks on 9/11. Ask them to recount that event from memory and every one will be able to recount some accurate details but each will also vary in details of the sequence of events, who was involved, etc.
I once taught a highschool Sunday School class. All the kids had spent years sitting in church looking at a multi-colored tapestry with abstract figures in it that hung directly behind the pulpit. I asked them to describe the colors and figures in that tapestry from memory. Every one got some of it right. Every one got some of it wrong.
All this is to illustrate how the Bible got put together. In both the Old and New Testaments, you had people widely separated hearing and eventually writing down the same stories, same recollections, same history in their heads. And then at some point, all that was collected and edited together, sometimes skillfully, sometimes not, but whatever seemed to be most authentic and verifiable was included. And because you were dealing with several versions of the retelling of stories and multiple eye witness accounts, you have some inconsistencies included.
To me that affirms that the Bible is more believable. If it was a ice, clean, orderly narrative with all inconsistencies removed, I would be more likely to look at it as propaganda or intentional promotion rather than a collection of people's encounters with and understanding of God.
!)The egyptians did practice slavery. So the probability that a group of people that are the forefathers of modern Jews is significant.
Also, before the "Hebrews" moved into the area that was to become Israel, egypt and several other nations vied for claim to the region. It is possible that run away slaves or even slaves that purchased their freedom from Egyptian masters settled the land over time.
2) OH WELL. You do know that the story may have come from the Babylonians or Sumerians. It is repeated in ancient Sumerian mythology just that the names and places are different.
3) Fantasy is fun. If you would try to believe, you might change your mind!!
Excuse Me!!
Al Gore is Real! How dare you question the greatest intellect of our time. Why--Gore created the internet!! Did you you create the internet? No Al Gore created the internet. Also, with his Clabilities, is able to determine when Florida is going to become part of the Gulf of Mexico.
I am sitting on some future prime beach front property and you want to doubt Al Gore. You are crazy!!!
AllieBaba
Rookie
- Oct 2, 2007
- 33,778
- 3,928
- 0
- Banned
- #33
!)The egyptians did practice slavery. So the probability that a group of people that are the forefathers of modern Jews is significant.
Also, before the "Hebrews" moved into the area that was to become Israel, egypt and several other nations vied for claim to the region. It is possible that run away slaves or even slaves that purchased their freedom from Egyptian masters settled the land over time.
2) OH WELL. You do know that the story may have come from the Babylonians or Sumerians. It is repeated in ancient Sumerian mythology just that the names and places are different.
3) Fantasy is fun. If you would try to believe, you might change your mind!!
They actually have found evidence of what they think are ancient ruins, built by Hebrews in Egypt, and they date back to the time of Moses.
"There is a reference in ancient Egyptian documents to a Semitic tribe captured by Pharaoh and forced to work on the city of Ramses. A clay tablet lists groups of people who were captured by the Pharaoh and one of the groups was called Habiru."
BBC - Religions - Judaism: Moses
Yes! People we've seen on television are always credible unlike those we read about in books.
(And okay, apologies to the group. I just saw this cartoon this morning and couldn't resist.
)
HUGGY
I Post Because I Care
Yes! People we've seen on television are always credible unlike those we read about in books.
(And okay, apologies to the group. I just saw this cartoon this morning and couldn't resist.
Perhaps you could have resisted putting it on this thread.
Bible fiction? How many of the original actors refered to in the bible could read or write? I'm no expert but how much of the general population could read and write? Wouldn't it be true that 2000 years later humans are about a thousand times better educated and think more critically? So how is it that I need a writen list to go to the grocery store and Christians want to take 7 consecutive generations of illiterates verbal hand me down stories for "gospel"? I'm not saying that jesus did not exist but it is quite a stretch to accept accounts as factual.
What comes to mind is that experiment where a story is told to 10 people in a room starting with one person and they turn and relay the story to the next one and so on and so forth until the story has been told to the tenth person. The names and the jist of the story is completely different from the original rendition... And that is within just a few minutes.
The only fall back position is faith. I have little in mans abilities here and now. I have none in the existance of a god. And I have less than any in the education and reliability of man 2000 years ago.
!)The egyptians did practice slavery. So the probability that a group of people that are the forefathers of modern Jews is significant.
Also, before the "Hebrews" moved into the area that was to become Israel, egypt and several other nations vied for claim to the region. It is possible that run away slaves or even slaves that purchased their freedom from Egyptian masters settled the land over time.
2) OH WELL. You do know that the story may have come from the Babylonians or Sumerians. It is repeated in ancient Sumerian mythology just that the names and places are different.
3) Fantasy is fun. If you would try to believe, you might change your mind!!
They actually have found evidence of what they think are ancient ruins, built by Hebrews in Egypt, and they date back to the time of Moses.
"There is a reference in ancient Egyptian documents to a Semitic tribe captured by Pharaoh and forced to work on the city of Ramses. A clay tablet lists groups of people who were captured by the Pharaoh and one of the groups was called Habiru."
BBC - Religions - Judaism: Moses
I don't doubt the Hebrews/ancinet Jews might have been slaves in egypt
AllieBaba
Rookie
- Oct 2, 2007
- 33,778
- 3,928
- 0
- Banned
- #37
Yes! People we've seen on television are always credible unlike those we read about in books.
(And okay, apologies to the group. I just saw this cartoon this morning and couldn't resist.
Perhaps you could have resisted putting it on this thread.
Bible fiction? How many of the original actors refered to in the bible could read or write? I'm no expert but how much of the general population could read and write? Wouldn't it be true that 2000 years later humans are about a thousand times better educated and think more critically? So how is it that I need a writen list to go to the grocery store and Christians want to take 7 consecutive generations of illiterates verbal hand me down stories for "gospel"? I'm not saying that jesus did not exist but it is quite a stretch to accept accounts as factual.
What comes to mind is that experiment where a story is told to 10 people in a room starting with one person and they turn and relay the story to the next one and so on and so forth until the story has been told to the tenth person. The names and the jist of the story is completely different from the original rendition... And that is within just a few minutes.
The only fall back position is faith. I have little in mans abilities here and now. I have none in the existance of a god. And I have less than any in the education and reliability of man 2000 years ago.
What you feel and emote has nothing to do with the truth, however. Regardless of your beliefs, there is a God, and the bible is more and more considered a factual historical document.
While people may or may not been able to read 3000 years ago, they passed down oral history and traditions which required memory skills we no longer cultivate today. I'm not convinced the Hebrews were illiterate, though. They may not have had printing presses and cheap paper, but I suspect they had a written language which was universally taught to the children.
But I'll have to look into it. Now I'm curious.
AllieBaba
Rookie
- Oct 2, 2007
- 33,778
- 3,928
- 0
- Banned
- #38
"We may reasonably suppose that, at all events in earlier
times, reading was a somewhat more common accomplishment
than writingf though we find writing where we
should scarcely expect it.5 It is to be noted that ' to read '
sometimes means to ' hear read '.6 In any case, as in the
Middle Ages, and as is evident from the use of the word
kdri, all reading was reading aloud."
http://www.efm.bris.ac.uk/het/kennett/AncientHebrewLifeCustoms.pdf
times, reading was a somewhat more common accomplishment
than writingf though we find writing where we
should scarcely expect it.5 It is to be noted that ' to read '
sometimes means to ' hear read '.6 In any case, as in the
Middle Ages, and as is evident from the use of the word
kdri, all reading was reading aloud."
http://www.efm.bris.ac.uk/het/kennett/AncientHebrewLifeCustoms.pdf
HUGGY
I Post Because I Care
Yes! People we've seen on television are always credible unlike those we read about in books.
(And okay, apologies to the group. I just saw this cartoon this morning and couldn't resist.
Perhaps you could have resisted putting it on this thread.
Bible fiction? How many of the original actors refered to in the bible could read or write? I'm no expert but how much of the general population could read and write? Wouldn't it be true that 2000 years later humans are about a thousand times better educated and think more critically? So how is it that I need a writen list to go to the grocery store and Christians want to take 7 consecutive generations of illiterates verbal hand me down stories for "gospel"? I'm not saying that jesus did not exist but it is quite a stretch to accept accounts as factual.
What comes to mind is that experiment where a story is told to 10 people in a room starting with one person and they turn and relay the story to the next one and so on and so forth until the story has been told to the tenth person. The names and the jist of the story is completely different from the original rendition... And that is within just a few minutes.
The only fall back position is faith. I have little in mans abilities here and now. I have none in the existance of a god. And I have less than any in the education and reliability of man 2000 years ago.
What you feel and emote has nothing to do with the truth, however. Regardless of your beliefs, there is a God, and the bible is more and more considered a factual historical document.
While people may or may not been able to read 3000 years ago, they passed down oral history and traditions which required memory skills we no longer cultivate today. I'm not convinced the Hebrews were illiterate, though. They may not have had printing presses and cheap paper, but I suspect they had a written language which was universally taught to the children.
But I'll have to look into it. Now I'm curious.
Is not.
Yes! People we've seen on television are always credible unlike those we read about in books.
(And okay, apologies to the group. I just saw this cartoon this morning and couldn't resist.
Perhaps you could have resisted putting it on this thread.
Bible fiction? How many of the original actors refered to in the bible could read or write? I'm no expert but how much of the general population could read and write? Wouldn't it be true that 2000 years later humans are about a thousand times better educated and think more critically? So how is it that I need a writen list to go to the grocery store and Christians want to take 7 consecutive generations of illiterates verbal hand me down stories for "gospel"? I'm not saying that jesus did not exist but it is quite a stretch to accept accounts as factual.
What comes to mind is that experiment where a story is told to 10 people in a room starting with one person and they turn and relay the story to the next one and so on and so forth until the story has been told to the tenth person. The names and the jist of the story is completely different from the original rendition... And that is within just a few minutes.
The only fall back position is faith. I have little in mans abilities here and now. I have none in the existance of a god. And I have less than any in the education and reliability of man 2000 years ago.
What you feel and emote has nothing to do with the truth, however. Regardless of your beliefs, there is a God, and the bible is more and more considered a factual historical document.
While people may or may not been able to read 3000 years ago, they passed down oral history and traditions which required memory skills we no longer cultivate today. I'm not convinced the Hebrews were illiterate, though. They may not have had printing presses and cheap paper, but I suspect they had a written language which was universally taught to the children.
But I'll have to look into it. Now I'm curious.
You may be right. The Hebrews of Moses' day were barely past the Phoenician era that gave us the first recognizably constructed alphabet and revolutionized the written word. Hebrew writing was almost certainly derived from it.
Bible scholars who have spent a lifetime studying this stuff believe that the ancient Hebrews traveling around the area would stop at religious shrines and leave bits of writings of their thoughts for other travelers to find. It is believed, by many, that some of these writings were incorporated into some of the Old Testament text.
It would be reasonable that the Egyptians, quite culturally advanced for their time, would have educated favored slaves so they would be better able to perform assigned tasks. Those no doubt in turn educated others.
Last edited:
Similar threads
- Poll
New Topics
-
-
Those who wish to help those in the ME survive and get away, check this- Started by Robert W
- Replies: 5
-
Retail sales fell more than expected in January, biggest drop in eight months- Started by JimH52
- Replies: 4
-
-
Moscow empire is providing Iran with targeting information to attack USA forces in the Middle East- Started by Litwin
- Replies: 2
