Zone1 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground" / "We are stardust"

[ding]

Religioners have done so well, as far as assimilating scientific knowledge into their paradigm. But this one trups them up pretty badly.

But reconciling it is just so easy. Like ding said, dont read Genesis as a literal description. Thats the first step.

Even google knows this.

Yes, the ancient Israelites and later Jewish tradition deliberately crafted narratives of historical events from the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) to teach crucial religious, moral, and national lessons, viewing history as a primary way God revealed Himself and shaped their identity, even incorporating theological interpretation into seemingly factual accounts. These stories, like the Exodus, weren't just records but powerful tools for transmitting core values, emphasizing themes of covenant, obedience, consequences, and God's faithfulness across generations, making history a continuous dialogue.

How Israelites Used History for Teaching:

• Divine Revelation: History was seen as the arena where God actively intervened, making events like the Exodus or the establishment of the Kingdom central to understanding God's nature and relationship with Israel.
• National Identity & Covenant: Narratives reinforced a unique identity, linking their destiny to Abraham's covenant and the promised land, fostering a collective memory and purpose.
• Moral & Theological Lessons: Stories taught lessons about sin (like the Golden Calf) and redemption, showing the consequences of actions and God's justice, as seen in the cycles of judges and kings.
• Oral Tradition & Family: The Torah commands parents to retell these stories at home, ensuring each generation internalizes these lessons, creating diverse interpretations (Midrash).
• Compilation & Interpretation: The Bible itself is a compilation of varied traditions, edited over time to serve specific theological aims, presenting history through a lens of divine purpose.

Examples in Biblical Texts:

• Exodus: Not just an escape, but a foundational story of liberation and God's power, repeated in festivals.
• Book of Judges: Cycles of falling away, oppression, and deliverance, teaching about Israel's recurring failures and God's mercy.
• Job: Sometimes viewed as a philosophical parable (not strictly history) to explore suffering and faith.

In essence, Israelite narratives used historical events to create a living, teachable past, ensuring their people understood their unique relationship with God and their ongoing story.

Why TNHarley can't accept this is a mystery of the universe. Not really... he's a gas lighter.

 

[TNHarley]

Even google knows this.

Yes, the ancient Israelites and later Jewish tradition deliberately crafted narratives of historical events from the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) to teach crucial religious, moral, and national lessons, viewing history as a primary way God revealed Himself and shaped their identity, even incorporating theological interpretation into seemingly factual accounts. These stories, like the Exodus, weren't just records but powerful tools for transmitting core values, emphasizing themes of covenant, obedience, consequences, and God's faithfulness across generations, making history a continuous dialogue.

How Israelites Used History for Teaching:

• Divine Revelation: History was seen as the arena where God actively intervened, making events like the Exodus or the establishment of the Kingdom central to understanding God's nature and relationship with Israel.
• National Identity & Covenant: Narratives reinforced a unique identity, linking their destiny to Abraham's covenant and the promised land, fostering a collective memory and purpose.
• Moral & Theological Lessons: Stories taught lessons about sin (like the Golden Calf) and redemption, showing the consequences of actions and God's justice, as seen in the cycles of judges and kings.
• Oral Tradition & Family: The Torah commands parents to retell these stories at home, ensuring each generation internalizes these lessons, creating diverse interpretations (Midrash).
• Compilation & Interpretation: The Bible itself is a compilation of varied traditions, edited over time to serve specific theological aims, presenting history through a lens of divine purpose.

Examples in Biblical Texts:

• Exodus: Not just an escape, but a foundational story of liberation and God's power, repeated in festivals.
• Book of Judges: Cycles of falling away, oppression, and deliverance, teaching about Israel's recurring failures and God's mercy.
• Job: Sometimes viewed as a philosophical parable (not strictly history) to explore suffering and faith.

In essence, Israelite narratives used historical events to create a living, teachable past, ensuring their people understood their unique relationship with God and their ongoing story.

Why TNHarley can't accept this is a mystery of the universe. Not really... he's a gas lighter.

Whatever you have to tell yourself, pagan.

 

[ding]

Whatever you have to tell yourself, pagan.

You don't believe these accounts happened as they were written. I'm agreeing with you and explaining why these accounts were written.

What's your explanation for why these accounts exist? Was it a conspiracy to control men? Or were they crafted that way to teach lessons? I don't see a lot of other options.

 

[TNHarley]

You don't believe these accounts happened as they were written. I'm agreeing with you and explaining why these accounts were written.

What's your explanation for why these accounts exist? Was it a conspiracy to control men? Or were they crafted that way to teach lessons? I don't see a lot of other options.

OK pagan

 

[ding]

OK pagan

I can live with you believing that. Do you have an explanation for those accounts?

 

[TNHarley]

I can live with you believing that. Do you have an explanation for those accounts?

Yeah, it was a bunch of desert savages that used other civilizations stories to fill voids of knowledge. And to control the populace.

 

[ding]

Yeah, it was a bunch of desert savages that used other civilizations stories to fill voids of knowledge. And to control the populace.

So it was a conspiracy? And it was stolen? Which parts? Who was it stolen from?

 

[ding]

What you fail to understand is that the early accounts are from Sumerian times when polytheism was the dominant religion of the land. The beliefs expressed in Genesis about a creator God that is moralistic and providential but did not control the affairs of men were a radical departure from polytheistic beliefs.

Google is your friend TNHarley

Biblical accounts, particularly those in Genesis, share notable similarities with older myths from other ancient Near Eastern cultures, leading many scholars to conclude they were adapted, rather than "stolen," to express Israelite monotheistic beliefs. The biblical authors reworked common literary motifs to convey their unique theological message.

Key examples of these parallels include:

• The Flood Narrative: The story of Noah and the Ark shares significant plot details with the flood account in the much older Epic of Gilgamesh and the even earlier Atrahasis Epicfrom Mesopotamia.
  • Similarities: In both, a divine figure or council of gods decides to send a great flood to destroy humanity; a chosen man (Noah/Utnapishtim) is warned and instructed to build a large boat; animals are brought on board to preserve life; birds are sent out after the flood to check for dry land; the vessel lands on a mountain; and sacrifices are offered afterward.
  • Differences: The biblical account features one all-powerful God acting for moral reasons (human wickedness), while the Mesopotamian versions involve a pantheon of squabbling gods who are annoyed by human noise or simply choose to wipe them out, with one god breaking ranks to save his favorite human.
• Creation Accounts: The Genesis 1 creation story has parallels with the Babylonian creation myth, the Enuma Elish.
  • Similarities: Both describe a primeval watery chaos before creation, the separation of waters by a firmament (sky), the creation of light before the sun and moon, and a similar sequence of events leading to a period of divine rest. The Hebrew word for the "deep" (tehom) in Genesis is linguistically related to the name of the chaos goddess Tiamat in the Enuma Elish.
  • Differences: Genesis is strictly monotheistic and portrays a sovereign, peaceful creation by divine command ("God said, 'Let there be...'"), while the Enuma Elish is polytheistic and involves a violent cosmic battle between the gods. Humans in Genesis are created in God's image and given dominion, while in the Enuma Elish, humans are created from the blood of a slain god to serve as the gods' slaves.
• Other Stories: The story of Moses' birth, being placed in a basket in a river, is similar to an older legend about the birth of the Akkadian king Sargon of Akkad.

In essence, the ancient Israelites were part of the wider ancient Near Eastern culture and "breathed the same air". Their scribes used existing cultural and literary forms to present a revolutionary new idea: the existence of a single, all-powerful, and just God who created the world and humanity with purpose. The shared motifs help place the biblical texts within their historical context, but the theological emphasis remains uniquely Israelite.

 

[ding]

TNHarley

 

[Ace Nova]

no -

the fallacy of the monarchical belief as a single source for the creation of the universe ... monotheism is that all the inhabitants of the heavens are who are responsible for all that exists.

Oh, how quickly some forget about the sacrifice made, begetting the substance of the universe and world, as we know it.

As much as I tend to admire your knowledge of specific aspects of the nature of the universe - comments like, "All the inhabitants of the heavens are responsible for all that exists" draw nothing but ire.

You refer to the major religions as "Religions of the desert dwellers".

In the book of Isaiah, it is written:

For thus says the Lord,
the Creator of the heavens,
he who is God,
the one who formed the earth and created it
and established it;
he did not create it to be a wasteland,
but a place to be lived in.
I am the Lord,
and there is no other.


Explain what is the difference between saying "Everyone in the heavens are responsible for all the exists" and this passage?

The only difference is that you are implementing "Everyone in the Heavens" instead of LORD.


If you were allowed to substitute, "Everyone in the Heavens" instead of God or LORD within the Bible - would that mean that the Bible is correct? Your statement certainly warrants the question.

 

[BreezeWood]

For thus says the Lord,
the Creator of the heavens,
he who is God,
the one who formed the earth and created it
and established it;
he did not create it to be a wasteland,
but a place to be lived in.
I am the Lord,
and there is no other.

he did not create it to be a wasteland,

another of your self serving disingenuous posts ...

jesus knew, howabout you - for which is the sabbath.

* a day off from work - or the reference (they) made for their creation of life and garden earth to be keep holy.

name one desert dweller that does not pollute our rivers and estuaries.

 

[ding]

Not the overly simple , childlike nursery rhyme tale found in Genesis.

I can't think of a more poetic way of saying that everything unfolded sequentially over time.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I can't think of a more poetic way of saying that everything unfolded sequentially over time.

Then that shows an abject lack of effort and imagination, on your part.

 

[ding]

Maybe Moses just did his best to describe what God showed him, using the only tools he had at his disposal.

I don't believe that is correct. Pretty much everything from the beginning of Genesis 1 through the Patriarchal Age was an oral history. They weren't hearing about it for the first time from Moses.

The first eleven chapters of Genesis were ancient historical events - during a time when polytheism was the dominant religion of the land - that were crafted to teach lessons about the covenant, obedience, justice and Israel's relationship with God.

These early accounts are from Sumerian times when polytheism was the dominant religion of the land. The beliefs expressed in Genesis about a creator God that is moralistic and providential but did not control the affairs of men were a radical departure from polytheistic beliefs.

These accounts share notable similarities with older myths from other ancient Near Eastern cultures, leading many scholars to conclude they were adapted, rather than "stolen," to express Israelite monotheistic beliefs. The biblical authors reworked common literary motifs to convey their unique theological message.

Key examples of these parallels include:

• The Flood Narrative: The story of Noah and the Ark shares significant plot details with the flood account in the much older Epic of Gilgamesh and the even earlier Atrahasis Epicfrom Mesopotamia.
  • Similarities: In both, a divine figure or council of gods decides to send a great flood to destroy humanity; a chosen man (Noah/Utnapishtim) is warned and instructed to build a large boat; animals are brought on board to preserve life; birds are sent out after the flood to check for dry land; the vessel lands on a mountain; and sacrifices are offered afterward.
  • Differences: The biblical account features one all-powerful God acting for moral reasons (human wickedness), while the Mesopotamian versions involve a pantheon of squabbling gods who are annoyed by human noise or simply choose to wipe them out, with one god breaking ranks to save his favorite human.
• Creation Accounts: The Genesis 1 creation story has parallels with the Babylonian creation myth, the Enuma Elish.
  • Similarities: Both describe a primeval watery chaos before creation, the separation of waters by a firmament (sky), the creation of light before the sun and moon, and a similar sequence of events leading to a period of divine rest. The Hebrew word for the "deep" (tehom) in Genesis is linguistically related to the name of the chaos goddess Tiamat in the Enuma Elish.
  • Differences: Genesis is strictly monotheistic and portrays a sovereign, peaceful creation by divine command ("God said, 'Let there be...'"), while the Enuma Elish is polytheistic and involves a violent cosmic battle between the gods. Humans in Genesis are created in God's image and given dominion, while in the Enuma Elish, humans are created from the blood of a slain god to serve as the gods' slaves.

In essence, the ancient Israelites were part of the wider ancient Near Eastern culture and "breathed the same air". Their scribes used existing cultural and literary forms to present a revolutionary new idea: the existence of a single, all-powerful, and just God who created the world and humanity with purpose. The shared motifs help place the biblical texts within their historical context, but the theological emphasis remains uniquely Israelite.

 

[ding]

Whatever you have to tell yourself, pagan.

Virtually zero percent of mainstream biblical scholars and scientists believe that a global flood covering the entire planet as described in Genesis was a literal, historical event and you are arguing that we should read it as a literal historical event why?

The consensus among academic scholars is that the narrative is a Hebrew myth with theological significance, likely derived from older Mesopotamian flood myths like the Epic of Gilgamesh.

Mainstream Scholarly View

• Mythological Narrative: The Genesis flood narrative is considered a myth in the academic sense—a story used to convey profound theological truths about God's judgment and grace, rather than a factual historical account.
• No Scientific Evidence: A global flood is inconsistent with the physical findings of geology, archaeology, paleontology, and the global distribution of species. There is not enough water in the Earth's atmosphere and oceans to cover all landmasses and the highest mountains, like Mount Everest, which has marine limestone at its peak formed by the slow accumulation of marine life, not a sudden flood.
• Alternative Interpretations: Many Christian scholars who accept scientific evidence interpret the flood narrative as describing a large, local flood in the ancient Near East that impacted the known world of the time's human population. Others view the story as an allegory.

Creationist View
A small number of scholars, primarily associated with young Earth creationist organizations (such as Answers in Genesis), do hold a literal interpretation, arguing that the biblical text, when read plainly, describes a global catastrophe. They maintain that the geological evidence supports their view and that the Flood's reality is tied to the authority of Scripture. This view, known as "flood geology," is considered a pseudoscience by the mainstream scientific community.

 

[ding]

Then that shows an abject lack of effort and imagination, on your part.

How so?

 

[ding]

Are these really that different? Moses had no knowledge of the size of the cosmos. Naturally, the only "dust" he knew came from the dirt below his feet. Maybe what God showed him was a bit more than Moses could process, and this verse is what came out of Moses.

But, anyway, we went out and got some stardust. It's older than our Solar System. It comes from the death of a star prior to 5 billion years ago.

Asteroid Bennu carries stardust older than the solar system

NASA’s OSIRIS-REx samples from asteroid Bennu reveal stardust, water-driven chemistry, and clues to life’s origins in the early solar system.

www.earth.com

Notice how it comes accompanied with exotic organics and water. Virtually all the ingredients we need for life are there in asteroid Bennu, the little speck of batter that never made it to the oven.

So elegant.... and it takes a universe to do it! More than one generation of star death seems to have contributed to the materials in our Solar System. And life is made up the most abundant elements of them.

Cannot this "creation" (abiogenesis through the laws of nature) be God's plan? Are we not just studying God's creation, should you believe that we are in God's creation?

Many physicists and philosophers propose that reality is fundamentally information, summarized by John Wheeler's "it from bit," meaning physical reality ("it") arises from information ("bit"), with quantum mechanics suggesting information isn't just descriptive but constitutive, though some argue information needs a physical substrate to exist. This idea suggests reality isn't solid matter but a vast, interconnected system of informational processes, where observation plays a key role in defining phenomena.

 

[ding]

Biblical scholars generally agree that the account of Abraham existed in the "biblical memory" of the Israelites, meaning he was revered as the foundational first patriarch by the tribes. However, modern historical-critical scholarship typically views these stories not as precise, written history, but as a blend of older oral traditions, legend, and mythology that were compiled and edited centuries later—likely during the Babylonian exile or the Persian period (6th–5th century BCE).

Key Scholarly Perspectives:

• Biblical Memory vs. Historical Fact: While Abraham was known to the Israelites as a revered ancestor, scholars distinguish this "memory" from modern historical accuracy. The stories were passed down orally for centuries, reshaping the figure of Abraham to remain relevant to the present needs of the community.
• Late Compilation: Although Abraham is placed in the 2nd millennium BCE, most scholars believe the narratives in Genesis were written down, edited, or heavily redacted during the 1st millennium BCE, specifically the 7th–5th centuries BCE.
• No Archaeological Evidence: There is no direct, contemporary archaeological evidence to prove Abraham was a real person. As a result, many historians and archaeologists consider the accounts to be part of an "invented" foundation myth rather than recorded history.
• Function of the Story: The story of Abraham was well-known because it served a crucial purpose: it established a covenant, defined identity, and created a connection to the land for the Israelites.
• "Minimalist" vs. "Maximalist" views: In the 20th century, some scholars believed the Patriarchal narratives were based on 2nd millennium BCE customs (the "Patriarchal Age"). However, from the 1970s onwards, a more "minimalist" view has become common, arguing the stories are largely late compositions.

In summary, scholars believe the stories of Abraham were likely known in some form for a long time, but that the account as it appears in the Bible was shaped by later generations to function as a national epic rather than a contemporary historical record.

 

[Ace Nova]

another of your self serving disingenuous posts ...

jesus knew, howabout you - for which is the sabbath.

* a day off from work - or the reference (they) made for their creation of life and garden earth to be keep holy.

View attachment 1206084

name one desert dweller that does not pollute our rivers and estuaries.

The way I understand the Sabbath it is like this:

Mind - Thought - A time to reflect and honor God's Creation.

Body - Action - A day to rest the physical body.

Spirit - The power that animates both our minds and physical bodies - giving us consciousness and self awareness - developing our souls. The Spirit becomes "Whole" within a person, once their physical actions reflect their thoughts honoring the Sabbath.

In my opinion, the Sabbath is both a day of reflection and a day of rest - Reflection allows a person's thoughts to "rest" from the "ways of the world". Once those thoughts become action - The Sabbath becomes "Holy" - and yes, helping to keep the Earth clean is a part of that.

Pollution is a by product of civilization - especially since the industrial revolution. As mankind evolves, it can utilize the knowledge, wisdom and technology of civilization to coincide with nature - as can be seen by the measures nations have taken to reduce pollution on a global level.

That said - The Earth itself - nature "Finds a way" - meaning that it will continue to survive - mankind/civilization on the other hand, may not. "Honoring the Sabbath" (Creation) is essential for the survival of civilization as we know it, in my opinion.


Chernobyl after the meltdown:

Modern day Chernobyl:

Nature has recovered - even the buildings still stand - but they are abandoned because mankind can no longer survive there.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I don't believe that is correct. Pretty much everything from the beginning of Genesis 1 through the Patriarchal Age was an oral history. They weren't hearing about it for the first time from Moses

Which surely led to errors. Nevertheless, they could have been just passing along Moses's best attempt to describe his visions, given his limited knowledge and the limits of the human mind.