Switzerland's Minimum Income Proposal Makes the Ballot

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

Not expressing support for this, but it does make for an interesting discussion and there are some sensible arguments made. Could such a proposal work in the United States?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/17/magazine/switzerlands-proposal-to-pay-people-for-being-alive.html

A Basic Income for all: Could Switzerland's experiment work in the US?

 

[f252863]

Not expressing support for this, but it does make for an interesting discussion and there are some sensible arguments made. Could such a proposal work in the United States?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/17/magazine/switzerlands-proposal-to-pay-people-for-being-alive.html

A Basic Income for all: Could Switzerland's experiment work in the US?

One of the most inane ideas I have ever heard.

"With a guaranteed basic income, work would no longer be required to survive, poverty would be eliminated in one move. Where did they get this radical idea?"

And exactly who is going to pay for this?

 

[expat_panama]

...exactly who is going to pay for this?

The usual answer I hear for that question is 'the government'.

 

[jasonnfree]

Not expressing support for this, but it does make for an interesting discussion and there are some sensible arguments made. Could such a proposal work in the United States?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/17/magazine/switzerlands-proposal-to-pay-people-for-being-alive.html

A Basic Income for all: Could Switzerland's experiment work in the US?

One of the most inane ideas I have ever heard.

"With a guaranteed basic income, work would no longer be required to survive, poverty would be eliminated in one move. Where did they get this radical idea?"

And exactly who is going to pay for this?

They probably got the national minimum income idea from Tom Paine, one of our nation's founders and author of "Common Sense". Imagine, USA with no hungry or homeless people.

 

[HenryBHough]

no new taxes

It'll be 100% financed by equipping all toilet paper dispensers with coin slots.

And then hoping for the best.

 

[f252863]

Not expressing support for this, but it does make for an interesting discussion and there are some sensible arguments made. Could such a proposal work in the United States?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/17/magazine/switzerlands-proposal-to-pay-people-for-being-alive.html

A Basic Income for all: Could Switzerland's experiment work in the US?

One of the most inane ideas I have ever heard.

"With a guaranteed basic income, work would no longer be required to survive, poverty would be eliminated in one move. Where did they get this radical idea?"

And exactly who is going to pay for this?

They probably got the national minimum income idea from Tom Paine, one of our nation's founders and author of "Common Sense". Imagine, USA with no hungry or homeless people.[/QUOTE

We have more hungry and homeless today thanks to socialism coming back into our system.

It was tried in China, U.S.S.R. and is still present in Cuba today. Didn't work. But people never learn, they just go right back to the same policies that lead to poverty and hunger.

There is also a moral issue here. When you say "guarantee" that means you have to force someone else (me perhaps) to pay for others to live. Tell you what...start a policy like that and I'll quit work and join the freeloaders until I break your parasitic system.

 

[Kimura]

...exactly who is going to pay for this?

The usual answer I hear for that question is 'the government'.

That's usually how sovereign, currency issuing governments pay for things. It boils down to keystrokes and crediting or debiting $$$$ from reserve accounts to bonds and back again.

I actually support a Job Guarantee and Basic Income Guarantee. In order to have a workable macroeconomic theory, we need to have logical explanations for inflation and unemployment which can help us construct better public policy.

This type of floor (BIG) would be superior as a nominal price anchor as opposed to a pure JG. You'd hire people who really wanted work in the economy because they would opt for a JG. This would provide a better source of workers, as a national buffer stock, to employers in the general economy.

I also think a BIG/JG would incentivize employers to offer better job opportunities than a regular JG, since employees would have more options with a basic income guarantee. It would also provide automatic demand stabilization the same way as regular Job Guarantee.

My two cents....

 

[JimmieD]

How about instead of unemployment benefits, food stamps and such the gov't gives a wage subsidy? So the gov't gives some $amount to the lower income workers only. This would at least provide an incintive to work along with helping with low wage employees rather than forcing companies cough up their own money to achieve a gov't policy.

 

[expat_panama]

...exactly who is going to pay for this?

The usual answer I hear for that question is 'the government'.

That's usually how sovereign, currency issuing governments pay for things. It boils down to keystrokes and crediting or debiting $$$$ from reserve accounts to bonds and back again...

No they don't.

OK, so government's can sometimes buy a few $billion in bonds by issuing Fed money, but they only do that to control deflation and it has to go right back when inflation reappears. In fact, at the end of 2012 the Fed held a smaller % of the national debt than in 2011 --10.3% down from 10.6%. Compare that to say, 1974 when the Fed owned 17%.

Fact is that more than 4/5 of all spending is paid by taxes and the rest was covered by borrowing --and almost all of that will be paid back by tax revenue.

 

[Kimura]

The usual answer I hear for that question is 'the government'.

That's usually how sovereign, currency issuing governments pay for things. It boils down to keystrokes and crediting or debiting $$$$ from reserve accounts to bonds and back again...

No they don't.

OK, so government's can sometimes buy a few $billion in bonds by issuing Fed money, but they only do that to control deflation and it has to go right back when inflation reappears. In fact, at the end of 2012 the Fed held a smaller % of the national debt than in 2011 --10.3% down from 10.6%. Compare that to say, 1974 when the Fed owned 17%.

Fact is that more than 4/5 of all spending is paid by taxes and the rest was covered by borrowing --and almost all of that will be paid back by tax revenue.

Um, yes they do.

It all starts with government spending, not taxation, which adds to the money supply. Treasuries are then issued for the same amount which replenishes the money supply and Treasury’s FED account to what is was BEFORE spending. The order of operations are as follows: spending, issue US Treasuries to refill the FED account. All Treasuries provide is a way to move funds from banks to more liquid assets in the form of US Treasuries

Under our current monetary arrangement, spending precedes taxation or any of this alleged borrowing. Where do you think the money comes from to buy bonds or pay taxes in the first place? We can't get our hands on money in any capacity until the national government spends it into existence.

 

[expat_panama]

It all starts with government spending, not taxation, which adds to the money supply. Treasuries are then issued for the same amount...

Those are words without numbers. The record has FY 12 with $3-1/2T spending, $2-1/2T receipts, and a $1T increase in the national debt from $15T to $16T. That's what America's working with.

 

[Flopper]

Not expressing support for this, but it does make for an interesting discussion and there are some sensible arguments made. Could such a proposal work in the United States?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/17/magazine/switzerlands-proposal-to-pay-people-for-being-alive.html

A Basic Income for all: Could Switzerland's experiment work in the US?

One of the most inane ideas I have ever heard.

"With a guaranteed basic income, work would no longer be required to survive, poverty would be eliminated in one move. Where did they get this radical idea?"

And exactly who is going to pay for this?

If it passes, it would be interesting to see how it effected the economy. Under the plan, other forms of welfare such as food stamps, welfare, housing assistance, and other social welfare plans would disappear. Such a plan would certainly reduce the size of the government bureaucracy both federal and state. I think the amount that each person would receive would be $2800/mo or $33,600/yr. I wonder what it takes to becomes a citizen.

One thing to consider, is there are vast differences between Switzerland and the US.

 

[Avorysuds]

Not expressing support for this, but it does make for an interesting discussion and there are some sensible arguments made. Could such a proposal work in the United States?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/17/magazine/switzerlands-proposal-to-pay-people-for-being-alive.html

A Basic Income for all: Could Switzerland's experiment work in the US?

One of the most inane ideas I have ever heard.

"With a guaranteed basic income, work would no longer be required to survive, poverty would be eliminated in one move. Where did they get this radical idea?"

And exactly who is going to pay for this?

If it passes, it would be interesting to see how it effected the economy. Under the plan, other forms of welfare such as food stamps, welfare, housing assistance, and other social welfare plans would disappear. Such a plan would certainly reduce the size of the government bureaucracy both federal and state. I think the amount that each person would receive would be $2800/mo or $33,600/yr. I wonder what it takes to becomes a citizen.

One thing to consider, is there are vast differences between Switzerland and the US.

What it takes to be come a citizen? Try it and find out =D

 

[Flopper]

If you look at the Swiss demographics and the economy, this proposal is not as absurd as it might sound. They are a very small but wealthy country compared to the US with substantial social services which could be eliminated by this proposal.

Swiss wealth is $513,000 per adult over twice the US number.
Swiss unemployment is 4.2%
Swiss populations of 7.4 million of with includes nearly 2 million foreign permanent residents.

Enacting and Implementing this in the US would make the Affordable Care Act a walk in the park.

Salary Survey in Switzerland| Salary Comparison
Switzerland will vote on US$2800 per month basic income for all adults

 

[bripat9643]

...exactly who is going to pay for this?

The usual answer I hear for that question is 'the government'.

That's usually how sovereign, currency issuing governments pay for things. It boils down to keystrokes and crediting or debiting $$$$ from reserve accounts to bonds and back again.

I actually support a Job Guarantee and Basic Income Guarantee. In order to have a workable macroeconomic theory, we need to have logical explanations for inflation and unemployment which can help us construct better public policy.

This type of floor (BIG) would be superior as a nominal price anchor as opposed to a pure JG. You'd hire people who really wanted work in the economy because they would opt for a JG. This would provide a better source of workers, as a national buffer stock, to employers in the general economy.

I also think a BIG/JG would incentivize employers to offer better job opportunities than a regular JG, since employees would have more options with a basic income guarantee. It would also provide automatic demand stabilization the same way as regular Job Guarantee.

My two cents....

two cents is all it's worth.

How the hell does an income guarantee serve as an "inflation anchor?" What is the mechanism in play here? You want to know how a government keeps inflation in check? It quits printing money! Simply quit spewing out trillions of dollars and the dollar will retain its value. Wow, what a revelation!

I'm also curious about this "job guarantee." If there is anything that would disincline employers to hire more people, it's a guaranteed job. That means employers can't get rid of people who turn out to be non-performers. That means employers will think long and hard about whether to hire any given person.

I've seen how this concept in foreign countries that having something similar. Getting a job is something of a miracle. The only reason anyone gets a job in the first place is that they are on probation for a year. During that year they work like borrowed mules. At the end of the year a lot of them get sent packing because the employer isn't going to give a guaranteed job to anyone unless that person is almost perfect.

Yeah, more great ideas from the government toady economist.

 

[bripat9643]

How about instead of unemployment benefits, food stamps and such the gov't gives a wage subsidy? So the gov't gives some $amount to the lower income workers only. This would at least provide an incintive to work along with helping with low wage employees rather than forcing companies cough up their own money to achieve a gov't policy.

Government already does that. It's called the Earned Income Tax credit.

 

[Flopper]

One of the most inane ideas I have ever heard.

"With a guaranteed basic income, work would no longer be required to survive, poverty would be eliminated in one move. Where did they get this radical idea?"

And exactly who is going to pay for this?

If it passes, it would be interesting to see how it effected the economy. Under the plan, other forms of welfare such as food stamps, welfare, housing assistance, and other social welfare plans would disappear. Such a plan would certainly reduce the size of the government bureaucracy both federal and state. I think the amount that each person would receive would be $2800/mo or $33,600/yr. I wonder what it takes to becomes a citizen.

One thing to consider, is there are vast differences between Switzerland and the US.

What it takes to be come a citizen? Try it and find out =D

12 years of legal residency, language requirements, plus you have meet the citizenship requirement for the cannon or Metropolis you plan to live.

 

[bripat9643]

That's usually how sovereign, currency issuing governments pay for things. It boils down to keystrokes and crediting or debiting $$$$ from reserve accounts to bonds and back again...

No they don't.

OK, so government's can sometimes buy a few $billion in bonds by issuing Fed money, but they only do that to control deflation and it has to go right back when inflation reappears. In fact, at the end of 2012 the Fed held a smaller % of the national debt than in 2011 --10.3% down from 10.6%. Compare that to say, 1974 when the Fed owned 17%.

Fact is that more than 4/5 of all spending is paid by taxes and the rest was covered by borrowing --and almost all of that will be paid back by tax revenue.

Um, yes they do.

It all starts with government spending, not taxation, which adds to the money supply. Treasuries are then issued for the same amount which replenishes the money supply and Treasury’s FED account to what is was BEFORE spending. The order of operations are as follows: spending, issue US Treasuries to refill the FED account. All Treasuries provide is a way to move funds from banks to more liquid assets in the form of US Treasuries

Under our current monetary arrangement, spending precedes taxation or any of this alleged borrowing. Where do you think the money comes from to buy bonds or pay taxes in the first place? We can't get our hands on money in any capacity until the national government spends it into existence.

The money is created when the FED puts it in the Treasury account, you bonehead. Government couldn't spend a thing if it had nothing in its account to spend.

The borrowing isn't "alleged." It's real borrowing.

Where does anyone learn these idiocies?

 

[Kimura]

It all starts with government spending, not taxation, which adds to the money supply. Treasuries are then issued for the same amount...

Those are words without numbers. The record has FY 12 with $3-1/2T spending, $2-1/2T receipts, and a $1T increase in the national debt from $15T to $16T. That's what America's working with.

Exactly. Where did the one additional one trillion from? Where did the trillions in tax receipts come from? Money doesn't operate like bottles or glass in a recycling plant.

I've stated on multiple occasions that spending precedes tax payments and borrowing under a fiat monetary system. If we extend my statements to actual loans from the Federal Reserve, then I'm 100% correct. Any tax payments to Treasury and bond settlements can only be facilitated through bank's reserve accounts. The balances in these reserve accounts, as a source of funds, are the direct result of previous deficits, which are ultimately credits to reserve accounts or FED loans. These FED loans are done through buying private securities, repos, and loans. In order for the bond sales to settle in any capacity or for tax payments to occur, there must have been previous government spending at some point.

It's the FED's desire to control the target fed funds rate which links government spending (adding reserves to the banking system) and government "borrowing"/taxing (net reserve drain from the banking system). Under our current fiat system, the government effectively spends $$$$ and then borrows back what it didn't tax. Why does it do this? Simple. Any deficit spending, which isn't offset by borrowing, would cause the fed funds rate to precipitously fall.

The FED doesn't control reserve balances. Reserve are affected by Treasury operations. For example, let's say Treasury sells $2,000 worth of securities, which will increase its reserve account at the FED by $2,000, bank reserves will decrease as if the Federal Reserve has sold them. Either way, whether its Treasury or the FED, when securities are sold, there is a decrease in reserves. When the FED or Treasury purchases government securities (Treasury rolls over debt), total reserves in the banking system will increase. The monetary straight jacket of the fed funds rate ensures the government simply cannot spend without "borrowing"/taxing, nor can the government borrow/tax without spending. The goal is to keep the reserve market in equilibrium, not borrow $$$$ to spend.

 

[tinydancer]

If you look at the Swiss demographics and the economy, this proposal is not as absurd as it might sound. They are a very small but wealthy country compared to the US with substantial social services which could be eliminated by this proposal.

Swiss wealth is $513,000 per adult over twice the US number.
Swiss unemployment is 4.2%
Swiss populations of 7.4 million of with includes nearly 2 million foreign permanent residents.

Enacting and Implementing this in the US would make the Affordable Care Act a walk in the park.

Salary Survey in Switzerland| Salary Comparison
Switzerland will vote on US$2800 per month basic income for all adults

but they ban everybody