Zone1 Satan

[TNHarley]

Not what I said. Does time--as we know it--even exist for God?

If he isnt limited by time, then he should know the future.
There are verses that state he does. How he put forth prophecies.
You are contradicting your own holy book.

 

[TNHarley]

This requires faith. Not logic. Not the ability to think.
God didnt want you to think. Thats why he punishes us for the disobedient chick eating the apple. Thsi is also why some gnostics say the serpent was the real god.
What god wouldnt want his people to know everything? To be aware?

 

[Meriweather]

If he isnt limited by time, then he should know the future.
There are verses that state he does. How he put forth prophecies.
You are contradicting your own holy book.

I see. You know the mind of God and how it works. You know his relationship to time. All I was noting was the definition of omniscience and how some atheists change its meaning in hopes of a good "Gotcha". I'm not playing--especially not the (wrong) assumption made of me contradicting anything; definitely not about what God may know--or elect not to know--about the future because I haven't a clue. I do know God has plans for the future, and that His plans will be carried out despite any efforts to thwart them.

 

[TNHarley]

I see. You know the mind of God and how it works. You know his relationship to time. All I was noting was the definition of omniscience and how some atheists change its meaning in hopes of a good "Gotcha". I'm not playing--especially not the (wrong) assumption made of me contradicting anything; definitely not about what God may know--or elect not to know--about the future because I haven't a clue. I do know God has plans for the future, and that His plans will be carried out despite any efforts to thwart them.

Im going by the bible. Im sorry if you dont like that

 

[onefour1]

In the thread "What is an Angel? What is the Difference?" I have argued that angels are mankind. Some are under the impression that Lucifer was an angel and not a man. I would argue that Lucifer was both. As one of the spirit children of God, He along with 1/3 of the hosts of heaven rebelled against God and were cast out of heaven. Angels are not a different species than man. An angel is nothing more than a messenger of God. Although Lucifer was a messenger of God (angel) he was also the offspring of God like all of Gods children. Isaiah 14 tells us that Lucifer is a man in spirit:

Isaiah 14:12-17
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Here Isaiah tells us that Lucifer is a man.

 

[kjw47]

So this god sends people to eternal hellfire just because of unbelief. Apparently, he should know what it would take to make everyone believe and he won't do it. He instead leaves it to an old book, written by people in one area of the planet, that was horribly inconsistent and doesn't make sense the more we learn.
That's cruel. How do you serve someone like that?

Only blind guides in false religion teach a literal eternal suffering. They do not know God. Only ones in darkness believe them.

 

[Meriweather]

Im going by the bible. Im sorry if you dont like that

The problem is that you are not going by the Bible as written and understood by the original authors. Try the Hebrew as it relates to ancient Biblical cultures vs modern English as it relates to today's Western culture.

 

[TNHarley]

The problem is that you are not going by the Bible as written and understood by the original authors. Try the Hebrew as it relates to ancient Biblical cultures vs modern English as it relates to today's Western culture.

Im going by what it says. Sorry for your luck.

 

[Meriweather]

Im going by what it says. Sorry for your luck.

Exactly...via modern English through the lens of today's Western Culture. Many are supremely happy with this interpretation as it allows them to misconstrue the Bible and scripture to their heart's content.

For example, begin with the definition of omniscience, knowing all there is to know at the moment it is knowable, and from there understand that humans cannot know what God knows. Try imagining a 'knowing' that makes it impossible to learn as there is no need for learning what one already knows. Return to humanity, because we must accept we cannot know what God knows.

When someone asserts s/he knows God's limits, that very assertion testifies to how they read/understand the Bible.

 

[TNHarley]

at the moment it is knowable

Thats not the definition.
And you are really making your god look weak by constraining him like that.

 

[fncceo]

I suspect that he asked God for too many favors.

I think he collected too much money in G-d's name (and didn't give any to him).

 

[Meriweather]

Thats not the definition.
And you are really making your god look weak by constraining him like that.

Try to understand. Over time, definitions of words change. What did the word for 'all-knowing' (translated into English as "omniscient" mean at the time of the original author and his original audience? Translated into Greek where 'very' and 'wise' are introduced. Latin is closer to the Hebrew and its meaning of all seeing. God sees what all of us are doing, and all that is in our hearts. The theme the original author is presenting is that God did not create mankind and then go off to other pursuits leaving us all to ourselves.

Should the original thought that God sees us at all times and knows our hearts at all times be made to infer that God knows the future, therefore God is outside of time, and by the way there is no free will? This is why rabbinical commentary reminds us of what else we know about God: Humans cannot comprehend all God knows and all that is in his mind.

It does not constrain God or make him look weak to remember the intent of the original author to his original audience: God sees all of us and understands all that is in every heart. It makes anyone who changes this simple statement into a, "Yes, but what this "really" means is (fill in the blank) look ridiculous (and therefore weak). Ask instead, What does God see me doing? What does God see in my heart? Those are the thoughts worth pursuing.

 

[TNHarley]

Try to understand. Over time, definitions of words change. What did the word for 'all-knowing' (translated into English as "omniscient" mean at the time of the original author and his original audience? Translated into Greek where 'very' and 'wise' are introduced. Latin is closer to the Hebrew and its meaning of all seeing. God sees what all of us are doing, and all that is in our hearts. The theme the original author is presenting is that God did not create mankind and then go off to other pursuits leaving us all to ourselves.

Should the original thought that God sees us at all times and knows our hearts at all times be made to infer that God knows the future, therefore God is outside of time, and by the way there is no free will? This is why rabbinical commentary reminds us of what else we know about God: Humans cannot comprehend all God knows and all that is in his mind.

It does not constrain God or make him look weak to remember the intent of the original author to his original audience: God sees all of us and understands all that is in every heart. It makes anyone who changes this simple statement into a, "Yes, but what this "really" means is (fill in the blank) look ridiculous (and therefore weak). Ask instead, What does God see me doing? What does God see in my heart? Those are the thoughts worth pursuing.

Ok, so the bible is wrong. God doesnt know everything. He cant predict the future and his prophecies were lucky guesses.

 

[Meriweather]

Ok, so the bible is wrong. God doesnt know everything. He cant predict the future and his prophecies were lucky guesses.

Okay...so your interpretation of the Bible is wrong. We humans do not know the mind of God and cannot know what he knows. God has assured us his plans prevail. Read the Bible. There have been many false prophets and prophecies. And many that are true. And some who read the handwriting on the wall.

Here is a biblical truth: Don't worry about tomorrow. Today's issues are sufficient.

 

[TNHarley]

Okay...so your interpretation of the Bible is wrong. We humans do not know the mind of God and cannot know what he knows. God has assured us his plans prevail. Read the Bible. There have been many false prophets and prophecies. And many that are true. And some who read the handwriting on the wall.

Here is a biblical truth: Don't worry about tomorrow. Today's issues are sufficient.

I dont interpret it. I read it.
Interpreting it is BS. You make it mean what you want it to mean.

 

[Meriweather]

I dont interpret it. I read it.
Interpreting it is BS. You make it mean what you want it to mean.

Actually, no. I don't read the Bible. I don't interpret the Bible. I study the Bible. It's easy to identify who knows the Hebrew, or at least has done an in depth Bible study (covering years/decades) and who simply reads it in a different language through the lens of a different culture and jump to their own conclusions instead of reach the original insights. The fact you laughed at my last post tells me just how well you have read the Bible. Try a Bible study...with a rabbi if that is possible.

 

[TNHarley]

Actually, no. I don't read the Bible. I don't interpret the Bible. I study the Bible. It's easy to identify who knows the Hebrew, or at least has done an in depth Bible study (covering years/decades) and who simply reads it in a different language through the lens of a different culture and jump to their own conclusions instead of reach the original insights. The fact you laughed at my last post tells me just how well you have read the Bible. Try a Bible study...with a rabbi if that is possible.

I know I know. Its my fault I read all those inconsistencies and illogical happenings in the bible. Its all because I cant read Hebrew or Greek
God didnt really make plants before the sun. He didnt really make prophecies because he couldnt know the future, even though he isnt constrained by time. He didnt know what humans were going to do because he doesnt really know all.
My bad.

 

[Meriweather]

I know I know. Its my fault I read all those inconsistencies and illogical happenings in the bible. Its all because I cant read Hebrew or Greek
God didnt really make plants before the sun. He didnt really make prophecies because he couldnt know the future, even though he isnt constrained by time. He didnt know what humans were going to do because he doesnt really know all.
My bad.

Understand the Bible any which way you wish. I'm merely pointing out how your understanding differs from the understanding of the original author and his original audience. Perhaps take it this way: You and Moses run into each other and begin a conversation. Moses says, "I understand God this way." You tell him how you understand God. You both part ways, accepting the two of you understand God two different ways.

 

[TNHarley]

Millions and millions of people dont understand god correctly. Can you believe it?
god let millions of his followers be led astray. And he will then punish them for it

 

[Meriweather]

Millions and millions of people dont understand god correctly. Can you believe it?

That is precisely what the Bible tries to tell us, that God is beyond our understanding.

god let millions of his followers be led astray. And he will then punish them for it

No and no.