S.C. believed to lack 5 votes to affirm non-conditional, U.S. birthright citizenship

Not at all.

As I just posted above:

Well, you have United States vs Wong Kim Ark 169 U.S. 649 (1898) which said:

"[T]he real object of the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution, in qualifying the words, "All persons born in the United States" by the addition "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof," would appear to have been to exclude, by the fewest and fittest words (besides children of members of the Indian tribes, standing in a peculiar relation to the National Government, unknown to the common law), the two classes of cases -- children born of alien enemies in hostile occupation and children of diplomatic representatives of a foreign State -- both of which, as has already been shown, by the law of England and by our own law from the time of the first settlement of the English colonies in America, had been recognized exceptions to the fundamental rule of citizenship by birth within the country."
I cited Wong Kim Ark in another post. Not as the definitive argument, but as a reason that the conservative justices will struggle to affirm the government's position.
So, everyone gets to be citizens who are born in the US, except for those who are being imprisoned during times of war, ie, prison of war camps and those who are diplomatic kids.

The former are not "legally" in the US, they're POWs. They're not subject to US law, they cannot demand due process, they cannot get anything. They can't get up and walk around and do whatever they want. The second have diplomatic immunity, they're not under the jurisdiction of US law.

So, all babies born under US LAW are given birth citizenship, if they want it.
Not sure if I agree with that logic about children of POW's. Not that it has ever or will ever come up much, nearly all POW's being male and none being kept in the U.S. since WWII, as far as I know.

The justices in Wong Kim named children of diplomats and Injuns as exceptions, I don't know if the mentioned children of POWs.
POW's are being held under international law, but if they were accused of murdering a guard or a fellow prisoner, I believe they would have due process for that crime, and be subject to the same penalties as any citizen in the same state as they were held.

I think the original framers would have never envisioned children of POW's or even children of foreigners who commit crimes and have babies in prison giving birth to American Citizens.
 
But SCOTUS is not reviewing the the citizenship issue.
They are. They just haven't issued a decision yet. They might over the summer or they might wait until October.
 
Well lib loons stated emphatically that the stock market had collapsed and birthright citizenship would easily prevail
 
. Abiding by our Constitution is "unnecessary"?
. Abiding by our Constitution is "unnecessary"?
Well lib loons stated emphatically that the stock market had collapsed and birthright citizenship would easily prevail
Well lib loons stated emphatically that the stock market had collapsed and birthright citizenship would easily prevail

Yes, MAGA, you have to abide the Constitution.
 
Yes, MAGA, you have to abide the Constitution.

Yes, the Constitution does not include a right to birthright citizenship for parent's of those in the country illegally. It's that pesky qualifier they added on purpose that allows for certain, but unspecified, exceptions. Glad to clear that up for you.
 
Yes, the Constitution does not include a right to birthright citizenship for parent's of those in the country illegally. It's that pesky qualifier they added on purpose that allows for certain, but unspecified, exceptions. Glad to clear that up for you.
It sure does unless SCOTUS says no, and nothing indicates that. Their argument is on procedure and not merits of the case.
 
In the Wong Kim Ark case the Court listed specific factors which led to the court's opinion:


(1)Wong Kim Ark’s parents were in our country legally;

(2) had been settled in American for quite some time;

(3) the parents had a permanent domicile and residence in the United States;

(4) they were carrying on a lawful business;

(5) and the parents were not employed in any diplomatic or official capacity under the emperor of China at the time of Wong Kim Ark’s birth.


After the above facts were established by the Court, Justice Gray then stated with regard to Wong Kim Ark’s question of citizenship:

For the reasons above stated, the court was of the opinion that the question must be answered in the affirmative.

The fact is, the qualifying words in the Fourteenth Amendment, "... and subject to the jurisdiction thereof....", by their documented legislative intent, excludes birthright citizenship to a child born to an illegal entrant foreign national while on American soil.

I believe Trump will have this fact confirmed by necessary legal action, and the myth of so-called birthright citizenship to a child born on American soil to an illegal entrant foreign national will come to an end.

JWK


The whole aim of construction, as applied to a provision of the Constitution, is to discover the meaning, to ascertain and give effect to the intent of its framers and the people who adopted it._____HOME BLDG. & LOAN ASSOCIATION v. BLAISDELL, 290 U.S. 398 (1934)

So, in other words, he was a legal US citizen because A) he was not a POW at the time of birth and B) his parents were not diplomats at the time of birth.
 
Is that your personal opinion, or do you have supportive documentation from those who authored, and helped to ratify the 14th Amendment?

I see this argument all the time from the Trump nuts. It as if they really think it is difficult to go back and read the Congressional and Senate debates. And you get shit like this,


I mean the entire article is fabricated bullshit. I mean I will spoon-feed you.


May 30, 1866. John Conness, senator from Ohio. Look at the link, final column on that page, second paragraph down. Of all children born to whatever parentage, Asian, Gypsy, Black, in the United States, are automatically granted birthright citizenship. I mean read it further, go to the next page. That debate, on May 30, 1866. It clearly answers your question. It clearly explains how the Congress members at the time viewed birthright citizenship. I mean Cowan, Senator from Pennyslvania, voted against the amendment specifically because it would have granted citizenship to children born to gypsies. Yeah, ******* gypsies for Christ sake.

I mean this claim, that those that passed the 14th amendment through Congress, somehow didn't mean for it to apply to "anyone" born in the United States, that foreigners did not have that right, is historical revisionism of the worst kind. "Subject to the jurisdiction", I mean it is a simple clause, and a simple meaning. I understand, the links I left, I mean thousands of pages of reading. And the really cool part about it, I mean it is the official record, like the exact words they said. Like what happens in Congress, both the House and the Senate, to this very day.

But you do yourself a solid and dig into that single page link I left you, read the entire days debate that day. You can pull that from the first link I left. I mean you got Cowan, lamenting about "gypsies". Gypsies in Pennyslvania, 1866? Kind of mind boggling. Hell, much of the Civil War was fought in Pennyslvania, don't even get me started on the vultures of Gettysburg. And Cowan is worried about gypsies? Conness, he deadpans, "gypsies?' Then, like Senators still do, well not as much as they used to, but, Conness turns to his friend from Michigan, "you know anything about gypsies"? Comical almost the response, "Uh, duh, NO?" Conness moves on, fired up at this point.

In California, we got Mongolians. That was what they called the Asian immigrants, and not to be blunt, but those immigrants got screwed more than any of you guys. Irish, Germans, French. The Jews, who actually run a close second to those Asians into the Pacific coast, especially prior to WWII. And I suppose Conness was 150 years ahead of his time. But he begins by saying that all those Mongolians, they eventually return home. They might be dead, but they go back to be buried in their homeland.

And why would he say that? I mean for real, how is it germane to the discussion at hand. But then he comes out and says it. They work harder, are industrious, thrifty, They are smart. Smarter than us. The parents have no allegiance to us. They won't even be buried here. But yep, born here, citizen. I mean it is like Conness had a crystal ball, prefacing Wong. There was a stark difference between the two, Conness and Cowan But this discussion, about who birthright citizenship applies to, was handled than and there, in the final vote. And ratification by the states, who all knew full well the definition of "jurisdiction".
 
"and subject to the jurisdiction of" merely means a person has to be in the US to be under US law in order to be able to get the citizenship.
So you have to be born in and under the jurisdiction of the US to qualify for this grant of citizenship. But your contention is that the “under the jurisdiction of” just means you’re in the US. How could a baby be born in the US but not “under the jurisdiction of” at the same time using your definition?
 
Well, you have United States vs Wong Kim Ark 169 U.S. 649 (1898) which said:

"[T]he real object of the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution, in qualifying the words, "All persons born in the United States" by the addition "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof," would appear to have been to exclude, by the fewest and fittest words (besides children of members of the Indian tribes, standing in a peculiar relation to the National Government, unknown to the common law), the two classes of cases -- children born of alien enemies in hostile occupation and children of diplomatic representatives of a foreign State -- both of which, as has already been shown, by the law of England and by our own law from the time of the first settlement of the English colonies in America, had been recognized exceptions to the fundamental rule of citizenship by birth within the country."

So, everyone gets to be citizens who are born in the US, except for those who are being imprisoned during times of war, ie, prison of war camps and those who are diplomatic kids.

The former are not "legally" in the US, they're POWs. They're not subject to US law, they cannot demand due process, they cannot get anything. They can't get up and walk around and do whatever they want. The second have diplomatic immunity, they're not under the jurisdiction of US law.

So, all babies born under US LAW are given birth citizenship, if they want it.
How many times do you twits have to be reminded that Wong didn’t address the issue relative to illegal aliens.

Smarten up, ******* weirdo.
 
I don't know. I think Biden's alien invasion sets up the perfect storm. That and the fact that Wong was clearly limited to a child of permanent legal residents.

I agree with you on Wong. my concern is what has been let happen has been going on so long that some of the middle justices will not want to act with just an EO. We may need legislation at least to clarify, and maybe an amendment at worst.
 
I agree with you on Wong. my concern is what has been let happen has been going on so long that some of the middle justices will not want to act with just an EO. We may need legislation at least to clarify, and maybe an amendment at worst.

That is possible. The 14th had been misintrepreted for a long time with regards to illegals. The time factor alone almost makes for a precedent.

What I don't understand, regardless of the 14th, is why Democrats are so hell bent on protecting birthright citizenship, which we all know is being used to hurt our country. If the 14th Amendment didn't exist, virtually nobody would support such a law to be written as it is currently interpreted and abused, so why go to such lengths to keep the current interpretation? A different interpretation would in no way defy the 14th Amendment, which doesn't address illegal immigrants.
 
That is possible. The 14th had been misintrepreted for a long time with regards to illegals. The time factor alone almost makes for a precedent.

What I don't understand, regardless of the 14th, is why Democrats are so hell bent on protecting birthright citizenship, which we all know is being used to hurt our country. If the 14th Amendment didn't exist, virtually nobody would support such a law to be written as it is currently interpreted and abused, so why go to such lengths to keep the current interpretation? A different interpretation would in no way defy the 14th Amendment, which doesn't address illegal immigrants.

They see immigrants as potential voters. Voters that can be added disproportionately to the reliant class of poor they can count on for votes.
 
15th post
They see immigrants as potential voters. Voters that can be added disproportionately to the reliant class of poor they can count on for votes.

Yes, this is the motivation of Democratic politicians who want to be elected. I just can't believe that their Democratic constituents(voters) are willing to sell the country out for Democratic politicians. I guess politics are their de facto religion and they would do anything to protect it.
 
I agree with you on Wong. my concern is what has been let happen has been going on so long that some of the middle justices will not want to act with just an EO. We may need legislation at least to clarify, and maybe an amendment at worst.
I'm not sure what the hesitancy is. Correcting this erroneous interpretation will effect the lives of literally zero Americans. The only effect will be to deter the lure of illegals to come here and have their anchor babies.

There is absolutely no benefit to the US with this current policy.
 
I'm not sure what the hesitancy is. Correcting this erroneous interpretation will effect the lives of literally zero Americans. The only effect will be to deter the lure of illegals to come here and have their anchor babies.

There is absolutely no benefit to the US with this current policy.

Another agreement, but still my concern with hesitating to overturn long standing unspoken precedent holds.

It's the unspoken part that makes it harder, as there is no previous decision to overturn, as we saw with Brown overturning Plessey, or Dobbs overturning Roe. It's far easier to overturn a known made mistake than make a first decision on a concept that was assumed for decades.
 
Another agreement, but still my concern with hesitating to overturn long standing unspoken precedent holds.

It's the unspoken part that makes it harder, as there is no previous decision to overturn, as we saw with Brown overturning Plessey, or Dobbs overturning Roe. It's far easier to overturn a known made mistake than make a first decision on a concept that was assumed for decades.
THat's the big deference. The decisions in Brown and Dobbs had a personal, life changing impact on tens of millions of Americans.

Correcting this erroneous interpretation will have, literally, zero impact on any American. Zero.
 
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