Zone1 Question For Catholics

[Road Runner]

You disagree with all our beliefs? The ones taught by Jesus and the Apostles? I note you now say "disagree" rather than "despise". Which belief do you disagree with most?

That's a tough one, but probably confession.

Objectively you DO despise Jesus.

Says the one who prays to anybody but Jesus.

I argued with a Catholic about this recently and was told that the priest does not forgive sin but only proclaims that the sin is forgiven. It sounds like you are saying that is false, that the priest does hold the authority to grant or withhold absolution and impose penance, something that would fly in the face of what Jesus said when He proclaimed He had the power to forgive sin and ticked off the Pharisees.

It's complete and utter blasphemy. Jesus Christ was and is the ONLY person with the ability to forgive sins. I go by the Bible, not whatever this crazy cartoon world is.

 

[hadit]

It's complete and utter blasphemy. Jesus Christ was and is the ONLY person with the ability to forgive sins. I go by the Bible, not whatever this crazy cartoon world is.

I agree. I don't buy it that anyone else is involved between Jesus and myself when it comes to forgiving my sin. I don't have to see a priest and I don't have to convince him that I'm sufficiently penitent to receive it.

 

[Meriweather]

That's a tough one, but probably confession.

• You despise/dislike Catholics because they go to confession?
• You despise/dislike the Catholic faith because Jesus passed along the rite Jews going to confession before a priest (see Leviticus 5) onto the Apostles and those anointed to the priesthood after them (John 23)?
• You don't want to go to go to confession.

Could it the third item listed is closest to the truth? Think about it. Do you despise/dislike Islam because Muslims bow towards Mecca in prayer? If not, why despise the practice of confession to those who practice it?

"I don't wanna..." Each time we sin, we are telling God, "But I want what I want; I don't want what you want."

 

[hadit]

• You despise/dislike Catholics because they go to confession?
• You despise/dislike the Catholic faith because Jesus passed along the rite Jews going to confession before a priest (see Leviticus 5) onto the Apostles and those anointed to the priesthood after them (John 23)?
• You don't want to go to go to confession.

Could it the third item listed is closest to the truth? Think about it. Do you despise/dislike Islam because Muslims bow towards Mecca in prayer? If not, why despise the practice of confession to those who practice it?

"I don't wanna..." Each time we sin, we are telling God, "But I want what I want; I don't want what you want."

The Bible says we are to confess our faults to each other, not a priest.

 

[Meriweather]

The Bible says we are to confess our faults to each other, not a priest.

Whom did Jesus give the authority to forgive sins? Note, that James passage says nothing about the forgiveness of sins, but only mentions to confess to one another and to pray for one another. Both good things as well. Another interesting passage in James comes directly before the one you mention. Who is one directed to go to for healing? (Answer: presbyters--i.e., leaders, priests)

Anyway, Catholics do both. One is not forgone due to the other.

 

[hadit]

Whom did Jesus give the authority to forgive sins?

Hold on, you told me that a priest does not forgive sin, that he basically has no more authority over it than I do, and I took you at your word. Now you're saying that someone other than God himself has the authority to forgive sin today? Which is it? You tell me who has authority to forgive or withhold forgiveness of sin who is not God and tell me why it sounds like you're changing your story. Tell me straight up, given this topic. Does the priest forgive your sin after you've convinced him you're penitent enough (even though you might not be), or not? You went to great lengths to convince me he doesn't, but only proclaims what God has already done.

Note, that James passage says nothing about the forgiveness of sins, but only mentions to confess to one another and to pray for one another. Both good things as well.

Right, because we don't confess to others so they will forgive our sin, only God forgives sin. We confess to each other to rob sin of one of its most powerful traits, being hidden. Bringing sin into the light gives us a lot more power to overcome it while hiding sin makes it a lot more difficult to overcome. Confessing also keeps us humble, as we cannot think of ourselves as superior to someone caught in sin while ours is kept in the darkness.

Another interesting passage in James comes directly before the one you mention. Who is one directed to go to for healing? (Answer: presbyters--i.e., leaders, priests)

You mean elders, those considered wise and mature in the faith, husbands of one wife. That's not the same as a priest fresh out of seminary, 25 years old who has not experienced much of life. How many young priests are healing people today?

Anyway, Catholics do both. One is not forgone due to the other.

The bottom line remains, only God forgives sin. Now, I know that Catholics love to point to John 20:23 as proof that Jesus granted authority to sinful humans the power to forgive or deny forgiveness of sin done against God. I don't believe that to be the case, because it gives sinful man the power to condemn someone to die in their sin whom God would forgive. Also, the Greek verb tense is in perfect tense, which reflects something that has already been completed. The apostles were to acknowledge when preaching the Gospel what God has already done, either forgiven someone or not forgiven them. They are not authorized to deny God's forgiveness.

And, of course, there is no Scriptural basis to believe that a ritual passes that apostolic authority down to a special class of priests today. We are ALL priests, by God's declaration.

 

[Meriweather]

Hold on, you told me that a priest does not forgive sin, that he basically has no more authority over it than I do, and I took you at your word. Now you're saying that someone other than God himself has the authority to forgive sin today? Which is it? You tell me who has authority to forgive or withhold forgiveness of sin who is not God and tell me why it sounds like you're changing your story. Tell me straight up, given this topic. Does the priest forgive your sin after you've convinced him you're penitent enough (even though you might not be), or not? You went to great lengths to convince me he doesn't, but only proclaims what God has already done.

Try again. Jesus assured all of us sins are forgiven, or more specifically, repentance for the forgiveness of sins. People who are going to Confession--almost always--are there because they are repenting of their sins. The priest simply determines repentance or that it is not a sin against the Holy Spirit, or whether a serious criminal offense has also been confessed to civil authorities. What you seem to be saying is that you determined you are repentant, therefore your sin is forgiven. No, I did not go to "great lengths", but I may have jumped to the conclusion that you were familiar with John 20:23.

I never have understood why Protestants bawl about the prospect of people going to confession where forgiveness is proclaimed and grace and blessings are received.

 

[Meriweather]

The bottom line remains, only God forgives sin. Now, I know that Catholics love to point to John 20:23 as proof that Jesus granted authority to sinful humans the power to forgive or deny forgiveness of sin done against God. I don't believe that to be the case, because it gives sinful man the power to condemn someone to die in their sin whom God would forgive. Also, the Greek verb tense is in perfect tense, which reflects something that has already been completed. The apostles were to acknowledge when preaching the Gospel what God has already done, either forgiven someone or not forgiven them. They are not authorized to deny God's forgiveness.

And, of course, there is no Scriptural basis to believe that a ritual passes that apostolic authority down to a special class of priests today. We are ALL priests, by God's declaration.

I understand in Protestant denominations each person is their own pope (so-to-speak) and rely on their very own interpretation. The Bible 1 Timothy 3, and I believe 2 Peter note that Church and tradition are to be followed....

 

[hadit]

Try again. Jesus assured all of us sins are forgiven, or more specifically, repentance for the forgiveness of sins. People who are going to Confession--almost always--are there because they are repenting of their sins. The priest simply determines repentance or that it is not a sin against the Holy Spirit, or whether a serious criminal offense has also been confessed to civil authorities.

He also grants absolution and can withhold it. That means a sinful human being stands between a sinner seeking forgiveness and God. If the priest is corrupt (God forbid, but he's a sinful human after all) or carries a bad attitude towards the sinner, he can leave that sinner feeling unforgiven, even if God has forgiven them a long time ago. If the priest is tired at the end of a long day and just wants to be done, he can grant absolution when the person is not forgiven.

What you seem to be saying is that you determined you are repentant, therefore your sin is forgiven.

I am saying that if I go to God in repentance of my sin, I am forgiven. I don't need a sinful human to tell me I am not.

No, I did not go to "great lengths", but I may have jumped to the conclusion that you were familiar with John 20:23.

Oh, yes, the passage where Jesus is sending His disciples out to preach the Gospel and proclaim truthfully that repentance leads to forgiveness while refusing to repent leads to not being forgiven.

You protested that the priest does not forgive sin, yet here you are also saying he can withhold absolution. Does that not give him authority to leave a person whom God has fully forgiven in their sin? Also, is a person forgiven of their sin if they do not confess to a priest? IOW, do they go into confession already forgiven? If so, why do so many Catholics appear to believe they are not forgiven until they do?

I never have understood why Protestants bawl about the prospect of people going to confession where forgiveness is proclaimed and grace and blessings are received.

That's because we do not need a sinful human being standing between us and God with the authority to withhold absolution if he wants to or grant it to an unrepentant heart. Man looks at the outside while God looks at the heart. Now, I know you will protest that priests don't do that, but they're human and who guarantees that they NEVER make a mistake and refuse to grant remission of sin when God has already fully forgiven that person, or grant it when God does not?

How many people have suffered under a load of guilt they didn't need to because a priest didn't think they met HIS standard of penitence, and how many have walked out of confession feeling they are forgiven when they are not? This is why we don't trust humans with the authority to either forgive or not forgive someone of their sin. Only God can do that.

 

[hadit]

I understand in Protestant denominations each person is their own pope (so-to-speak) and rely on their very own interpretation.

That is a false characterization and displays a great ignorance of non-Catholic denominations. You should be ashamed for saying that. We rely on the Word, the Holy Spirit interpreting the Word to us, Church tradition, the leaders of the Church, etc. We do not (or should not) blindly follow Church leaders and tradition without verifying them against Scripture. Why do you think God gives each of us a mind? "Because that's the way we've always done it" is not great Spiritual teaching.

The Bible 1 Timothy 3, and I believe 2 Peter note that Church and tradition are to be followed....

They are, but they can also be wrong and therefore must be thrown aside. Each one needs to peruse the Scriptures to ensure that he is following them correctly, which is what Martin Luther and the leaders of the Reformation did.

 

[Meriweather]

He also grants absolution and can withhold it. That means a sinful human being stands between a sinner seeking forgiveness and God. If the priest is corrupt (God forbid, but he's a sinful human after all) or carries a bad attitude towards the sinner, he can leave that sinner feeling unforgiven, even if God has forgiven them a long time ago. If the priest is tired at the end of a long day and just wants to be done, he can grant absolution when the person is not forgiven.

Clueless assessment and ignores God's love and the humility of his loving servants.

I am saying that if I go to God in repentance of my sin, I am forgiven. I don't need a sinful human to tell me I am not.

Then despise the human and do it all on your own. The entire point of confession is absolution. It is extremely rare, but when absolution is not immediately given, loving guidance is present to point the way.

 

[hadit]

Clueless assessment and ignores God's love and the humility of his loving servants.

Then despise the human and do it all on your own. The entire point of confession is absolution.

Which you say is not granted by God.

It is extremely rare, but when absolution is not immediately given, loving guidance is present to point the way.

Is a person forgiven before they go to confession?
Is a person forgiven if they do not go to confession?

 

[Meriweather]

Oh, yes, the passage where Jesus is sending His disciples out to preach the Gospel and proclaim truthfully that repentance leads to forgiveness while refusing to repent leads to not being forgiven.

You protested that the priest does not forgive sin, yet here you are also saying he can withhold absolution. Does that not give him authority to leave a person whom God has fully forgiven in their sin? Also, is a person forgiven of their sin if they do not confess to a priest? IOW, do they go into confession already forgiven? If so, why do so many Catholics appear to believe they are not forgiven until they do?

Stop. This is not complicated. God forgives sins. Jesus gave authority to the Apostles to announce the forgiveness of sins and added to that they could also note a lack of repentance that stands in the way of the forgiveness of sins.

Adding "What Ifs" to muddy the waters and to excuse yourself from not going to confession is pointless. If you don't want to go to Confession, then don't go to Confession. No excuse necessary. Those of us who do go to Confession recommend it, because of the graces and blessings that are inherent. If you are trying to convince me not to go to Confession, give it up.

 

[Meriweather]

That's because we do not need a sinful human being standing between us and God with the authority to withhold absolution if he wants to or grant it to an unrepentant heart. Man looks at the outside while God looks at the heart. Now, I know you will protest that priests don't do that, but they're human and who guarantees that they NEVER make a mistake and refuse to grant remission of sin when God has already fully forgiven that person, or grant it when God does not?

How many people have suffered under a load of guilt they didn't need to because a priest didn't think they met HIS standard of penitence, and how many have walked out of confession feeling they are forgiven when they are not? This is why we don't trust humans with the authority to either forgive or not forgive someone of their sin. Only God can do that.

I get it. You dislike humans. What you don't get is that absolution is a given except for extremely rare circumstances. Again, "What ifs" are red herrings going down a rabbit hole. I decline to follow you there.

 

[Meriweather]

That is a false characterization and displays a great ignorance of non-Catholic denominations. You should be ashamed for saying that.

Actually, I heard that characterization from one of your famous non-Catholic ministers. I've forgotten which one, but he said in Protestant denominations no one needs a pope as they are their own pope--it is each person and the Holy Spirit.

We rely on the Word, the Holy Spirit interpreting the Word to us,

Ah, just as you confirm.

 

[hadit]

Actually, I heard that characterization from one of your famous non-Catholic ministers. I've forgotten which one, but he said in Protestant denominations no one needs a pope as they are their own pope--it is each person and the Holy Spirit.

Ah, just as you confirm.

Purposely clipping off the rest of what I said displays a lack of intellectual integrity, as it allows you to react to only part of what I said.

Now, do you cling to the idea that every Christian should unthinkingly bow to Church tradition without examining it in the light of Scripture?

 

[hadit]

I get it. You dislike humans. What you don't get is that absolution is a given except for extremely rare circumstances. Again, "What ifs" are red herrings going down a rabbit hole. I decline to follow you there.

Okay then, the bottom line. Do you believe a person must go to confession in order to be forgiven of sin? You've thus far carefully avoided answering that one.

 

[Meriweather]

Purposely clipping off the rest of what I said displays a lack of intellectual integrity, as it allows you to react to only part of what I said.

Now, do you cling to the idea that every Christian should unthinkingly bow to Church tradition without examining it in the light of Scripture?

I clipped the part to which I was responding. Why would you think for Catholics it is one or the other, because it is not. It is both. Practicing Catholics are not the one leaving this out or that out. We embrace it all. Your failure is thinking you must do one or the other, but you cannot possible do both. That may be true for you. An funny analogy might be is that you are satisfied with a piece of cake. Catholics insist on the whole cake.

 

[Meriweather]

Okay then, the bottom line. Do you believe a person must go to confession in order to be forgiven of sin? You've thus far carefully avoided answering that one.

Jesus: Sins are forgiven. Repentance (turning away from sin) for the forgiveness of sins. To his Apostles and their successors: Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them. Sins you retain (unrepentant sins, sins against the Holy Spirit) are retained. Retained sins are a rarity. What were Jesus' words, words he used when interacting with those coming to him: Your sins are forgiven. Did he say this to people who did not make the effort to come to him? Did he say it to those trying to entrap him?

Jesus: I will build my church (etymology: assembly) Everything Jesus did was to draw people to the Father through him. He formed a church/assembly to draw people to himself so that he might draw them to the Father.

Some decide to skip the church part of it--the assembly--and go straight to Jesus. Some skip the Jesus part and go straight to the Father.

What I think: It seems I've said this a thousand times, although it's probably somewhat of an exaggeration. God meets us where we are and draws us to him from there. You know what Jesus and the Apostles said as well as I do. Since they knew Jesus and passed down to us an oral confession of sins, I ask myself, "I wonder why?" So I go to Confession and I learn why.

I will not tell you no need to bother with Confession because should I do this, I am depriving you. However, nor will I say anything that may lead to you feeling guilt. This is between you and God--Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. You have scripture's recommendation. You have Tradition's recommendation. You have my recommendation. Now it's your cross on your shoulders.

 

[Donald H]

From my atheist POV, there's mostly good to say about the Catholic church. They are moving far ahead of the others with their reform from old dogma to new beliefs that are attempts to find common ground with science!

All of their reform efforts can be categorized under the heading of Acceptance of Darwinian Evolution.

For example: They start carefully by offering the flock a choice between believing either evolution or creation. But it's hardly a secret that the creation belief will soon be retired for the nonsense it obviously is.[/B]