Puzzling Verses in the Gospel of John--Insights/Opinions

[sear]

The Bible is internally consistent, all the way through. It is opinion and interpretations of it that are inconsistent and cause imaginary 'differences'.

I've already proved this false once. I'll do so again.

And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen. 1 Kings 4:26
And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen. 2 Chron. 9:25

This scriptural discrepancy is a full order of magnitude.
It alone disproves the notion of scriptural infallibility. And once that is proved, the entire house of cards tumbles down. You're most welcome.

 

[buttercup]

At odds? Really? Why can't both passages be true? What exactly prohibits God from tugging on your heart string (its called a Conscience) that stops Jesus statement, "I am way....." from being true? The scriptures point out that Jesus is God incarnate, thus.......God and the Christ work with one accord.

There are steps to salvation. The bible clearly states that salvation from sin is only in Christ (Acts 4:12).

What are the steps necessary to man to pass from a sentence of spiritual death ( eternal separation from God) to life in Jesus Christ the Savior? Jesus is "....the author of ETENRAL SALVATION to all who obey Him." -- Heb. 5:9

Indeed Jesus stated, "I am the way, the truth and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." -- John 14:6

In the same book of John we find this statement, "And the word was made flesh, and dwelt among us (Jesus), and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." -- John 1:14 To clear things us with no ambiguity whatsoever. Who was the Word? "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD." -- John 1:1

Why does God tuck on your conscience? God wants everyone to be saved (1 Peter 4:6, 1 Tim. 2:4) The Word is Jesus, The Word is God......again why can't both passages be true?

How can one be drawn unless one first believes? And if you believe you will follow the advise of God in relation to salvation.

Gods Advise as to how to be saved? Step 1. Faith/Belief, one has to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God...i.e., God incarnate (John 16:16, John 6:69) That Jesus was sent from heaven as the only Savior from sin (John 8:24)...that "He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son does not have life." -- 1 John 5:12 One has to accept that you are living a life of sin and are without hope if you first do not believe.........no one can trust themselves to find salvation (Rom. 3:8-23) Once you believe you must ask the question, "What must I do.........."

Step 2. Repent or turn away from your old sinful life (Luke 13:3) 3. Confess to the deity of Jesus the Christ, that He is indeed the Christ of prophecy, sent from heaven to establish His eternal kingdom .......as confession leads to salvation (Rom. 10:9, Matt. 16:16, 1 Tim 6:12)

4. Be born again.........through the symbolic act of water baptism, born of the water and the Spirit. This symbolic act is where one dies and is born again, where one comes into spiritual contact with the Blood of Christ to cleanse one of all sin, as the old man dies (2 Col. 2:11-14, 2 Cor. 5:17) and a new life begins when one arises from the water like Jesus arose from the grave (Rom.6:3-5,17-18, Gal. 3:26-27, Rev. 1:5) For the forgiveness of sin (Acts 2:38, 22:16, 1 Peter 3:21)

You're barking up the wrong tree, it was Meriweather (in the original post) who thought they were at odds, not me. I was the one who said they are both true.

 

[Meriweather]

And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen. 1 Kings 4:26

Idiom. The number 40 is used throughout the Bible, as is the number 12. In other words, no one bothered with an actual count of the stalls, but there were a lot. And each horse had a rider. (Twelve is the number that indicates completeness.)

 

[ding]

I've already proved this false once. I'll do so again.

And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen. 1 Kings 4:26
And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen. 2 Chron. 9:25

This scriptural discrepancy is a full order of magnitude.
It alone disproves the notion of scriptural infallibility. And once that is proved, the entire house of cards tumbles down. You're most welcome.

 

[sear]

Idiom. The number 40 is used throughout the Bible, as is the number 12. In other words, no one bothered with an actual count of the stalls, but there were a lot. And each horse had a rider. (Twelve is the number that indicates completeness.)

Even if we accept your explanation as gospel, it merely verifies that the notion of scriptural infallibility is fiction.
Reductio ad absurdum:
either the Holy Bible is the inerrant word of god, or it is not.
- If it is, then believers are obliged to accept it without ANY question. *
- If it is not, then the flood-gates are open, yielding to literally unlimited question. That's bad news for pros in the religion bidness. That's why so many of them advocate scriptural infallibility.

* "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful." sometimes attributed to Seneca the Younger (c.3 BCE - CE 65)

 

[sear]

d #44
My sincere thanks. But my current ISP imposes severe bandwidth limits, my reason for operating in text mode rather than video mode.
I'm not ignoring your message. Instead I'm confessing that present circumstance prevents me from watching your video.

I offer you the opportunity to make your point in text, the way I do.

 

[Meriweather]

Even if we accept your explanation as gospel, it merely verifies that the notion of scriptural infallibility is fiction.
Reductio ad absurdum:
either the Holy Bible is the inerrant word of god, or it is not.
- If it is, then believers are obliged to accept it without ANY question. *
- If it is not, then the flood-gates are open, yielding to literally unlimited question. That's bad news for pros in the religion bidness. That's why so many of them advocate scriptural infallibility.

Not how believers see this. The Word of God is to be studied, not read. That implies questions--and over the centuries that has amounted to unlimited questions. Personally, I have never heard of scriptural infallibility. When it is humans who read it, wrote it, comment on it how can we come up with infallibility? However, truths are infallible and there is plenty of truth in the Bible.

 

[Gracie]

I would not disrespect Muslims by going into their religion and saying, screw that, Islam is whatever I say it is.

But somehow, people can do that to Christianity. Right? And people who actually study, worship, dedicate the time and effort just get told F you, it's whatever I say it is.

No. You can do whatever you like, but it's not "whatever you say it is". It's what Jesus Christ says it is. And if you want to call me a Bible Thumper for that, I'll put it on a T shirt.

Knock yourself out, Thumper. You are exactly what I dealt with as a kid and those just like you. I'll pass.

 

[Clyde 154]

I've already proved this false once. I'll do so again.

And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen. 1 Kings 4:26
And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen. 2 Chron. 9:25

This scriptural discrepancy is a full order of magnitude.
It alone disproves the notion of scriptural infallibility. And once that is proved, the entire house of cards tumbles down. You're most welcome.

Its proves nothing but HUMAN FALLIBILITY. Its obvious by the context when one does a compartive analysis that a "mistake" in recording was made........by a HUMAN. Compare the text in other places of scripture that discusses the same event....its a scientific method called "compartive analysis"..........the message or subject matter did not lie a simple human error has occurred. Just as you pointed out.........using the English system of translation the number was off an entire "magnitude" by recording a number that moves places by 10s, 1000s, 10000s, etc., by simply moving a single digit to an errant place holding.

Anyone whose assertions or doctrine is not supported by the Word of God has only one choice, he/she must attempt to prove that the scriptures are supposedly full of errors. Fact: Its true there are a several "errors" found in the Holy Scriptures.....but there is a vast difference between ERROR and DECEIT/LIES......in calling something "FALLIABLE" when it claims to be "INFALLIABLE". Error's are nothing but mistakes......mistakes are not lies.

The Bible itself claims to Infallible, thus it projects itself of being unable to teach DECEPTION as you would charge. Why? Because because it was "breathed"/inspired from the very mouth of God. (2 Tim. 3:16). The bible claims that God cannot lie. (Titus 1:2)

There are many such individuals that must attempt to discredit the Holy Scriptures by claiming that human error is God's way of deceit. All the false religions that Contradicts the doctrine found in the Holy Bible.....but the strange thing about a few of these false religions........they attempt to discredit the Word of God in one breath and then claim to be offering new revelations that simply are follow up prophecies to the Word of God. Example: the Book of Mormon, Islam/Muslims...etc.

They both make claims that the original text used today in the Bible has been altered completely in order to fit their doctrine in line with the Bible. How can it be both ways? They are in total alignment with a Bible that has been altered (as proven via their supposed follow up inspiration? Please!

You would attack the Holy Scriptures and claim Mistakes or ERRORS makes the text deceitful? Yet the Holy Scriptures are not the only works of ancient literature that are openly taught as truthful history in our (wink, wink) institutions of higher learning. How many MISTAKES are found in these historical teachings, yet there is no outcry of deceit?

As I pointed out previously......there is a scientific method called "Comparative Analysis". The more copies there are to compare in "making slips of the pen" ...i.e, simple recording errors........the better as the more copies you compare you can also see if these mistakes caused the context to change to the point where the subject matter is no longer apparent.

Those other works of historical importance that uses these methods? Annals of Tacitus (Roman Historian) there are but 2 copies known to exist. The writings of Plato. 7 known copies. The writings of Herodotus 8 copies. The Historian Thucydides 8 copies and few fragments. The history of Caesar's Gallic wars 10 copies. Another example would the work of Roman Historian Livy who wrote over 140 books of which only 35 complete books survived with only 20 copies in existence. The best example of a subject matter being taught with but a few examples realized would the 1758 known examples of HOMER'S ILLIAD.

Now compare these famous works with the Holy Scriptures. Take the New Testament, using it for comparative analysis......there are over 5800 complete or mostly complete manuscripts known to exist. Another 13000 fragments of original manuscripts. 10000 Latin translations to compare when the Greek was translated to Latin.

There are another 8000 manuscripts that have been translated into Syriac, Armenian, Ethiopic, Coptic, Gothic, Slavic, Sahidic, and Georgian.

Its a good thing to have so many copies to compare. If the only source came from one example then it would be most easy to deceive, such as our friends the Mormons and Muslims attempt by claiming theirs is the only true and original text, because it was divinely inspired....yeah right.

Copies of the New Testament text have been found in several nations: Egypt, Ethiopia, Palestine, Syria, Turkey, Greece, and Italy.

Also using compartive analysis when you have many old translations, alterations in one language can be easily detected when compared to the other translations....i.e., recording errors

What about the timelines when all these historical works of literature were found? It was over 1300 years before the first copies of Herodotus' work was found.....after the original was first drafted. Thucydides? 1300 years after it was first drafted. Caesar's Gallic Wars? over 900 years after..........Annals of Tacitus? 950 years after.........Homer's work? over 300 years after........The Roman History by Livy? over 350 years after.........

The Bible? Several fragments were found ranging from 40-100 years after they were first recorded.

Thus again.........what you are pointing to are MISTAKES made by humans during transcribing the text, by HAND, BY CANDLELIGHT, OFTEN IN THE BASEMENT OF SOME MONSTERY.

 

[buttercup]

I've already proved this false once. I'll do so again.

And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen. 1 Kings 4:26
And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen. 2 Chron. 9:25

This scriptural discrepancy is a full order of magnitude.
It alone disproves the notion of scriptural infallibility. And once that is proved, the entire house of cards tumbles down. You're most welcome.

Not so fast. Some people assume that is a copyist error, but you seem to be overlooking something that differentiates those two scriptures. I'm going to highlight the pertinent parts.

And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen. 1 Kings 4:26​

And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen, 2 Chron. 9:25​

According to Webster's 1828 dictionary, the word "stall" meant either a stand or station for one animal, or a stable, with divisions. Stable meaning a bigger area that housed multiple animals.

A stall for horses and chariots had to have been a bigger structure in order to house chariots AND horses, with subdivisions of individual stalls.

Sometimes the Bible talks about the same thing but from different perspectives. In this case, the writer of the 1 Kings verse described it as 40,000 individual stalls for horses, and the writer of the 2 Chronicles verse described it as 4000 stalls (stables) each one with 10 horses.

In light of that, there's no contradiction.

 

[SweetSue92]

Knock yourself out, Thumper. You are exactly what I dealt with as a kid and those just like you. I'll pass.

You're projecting on me. I'm sorry you had bad experiences as a kid--really. But people holding to the precepts of their faith is to be expected. As I said. I would never tell Hindus hey, I'm Hindu but I eat meat and also worship Jesus, that's just the way I do it, and expect them to accept me. They would say that's not Hinduism, and they would be right.

The words in the Bible, strung together, have meaning and are the foundation of our faith. Not believing them does not make you any less of a human being. But not believing them also does not make you, or anyone else, a Christian.

 

[sear]

The Word of God is to be studied, not read. That implies questions--and over the centuries that has amounted to unlimited questions.

a) You presume.
Let us instead agree that scripture is to be researched and understood. Whether any holy scripture is the word of god is a very separate issue.

"That implies questions--and over the centuries that has amounted to unlimited questions." Mw #47

There's more than one way to fleece a flock.
My comment was addressed at the one, extremist strategy of absolutizing holy scripture. It's a simple strategy. By assuming scriptural infallibility there is no challenging it. All the preacher need do is quote the scripture, and then say: "Your quarrel is not with me. It's with the Holy Bible. And the Holy Bible cannot be questioned, as it is the inerrant word of god."

This may be unfamiliar to some. I've seen it more than once. And I've never been a Christian.

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826), U.S. president. Letter, 10 Aug. 1787

"However, truths are infallible and there is plenty of truth in the Bible."

BUT !!
For moral / ethical / theological guidance we must recognize fact from error. And the problem is, in issues difficult enough to send one to holy scripture for guidance & resolution, chances are validating a scriptural assertion as 100% guaranteed valid is problematic.

"However, truths are infallible and ..."

"What goes up must come down." This was an indisputable truism less than a century ago. BUT !! Voyager 1 went up. It's never coming down. I'd suggest skepticism, open-mindedness instead of commitment to the notion of absolute truth. The omniverse is in flux.

Its proves nothing but HUMAN FALLIBILITY.

And it needn't prove anything more to successfully dismiss the extremist rantings of those that attempt to modify our behavior or outlook by their bizarre & self-serving misinterpretations of holy scripture.

Not so fast. Some people assume that is a copyist error, but you seem to be overlooking something that differentiates those two scriptures. I'm going to highlight the pertinent parts.

And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen. 1 Kings 4:26​

And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen, 2 Chron. 9:25​

According to Webster's 1828 dictionary, the word "stall" meant either a stand or station for one animal, or a stable, with divisions. Stable meaning a bigger area that housed multiple animals.

A stall for horses and chariots had to have been a bigger structure in order to house chariots AND horses, with subdivisions of individual stalls.

Sometimes the Bible talks about the same thing but from different perspectives. In this case, the writer of the 1 Kings verse described it as 40,000 individual stalls for horses, and the writer of the 2 Chronicles verse described it as 4000 stalls (stables) each one with 10 horses.

In light of that, there's no contradiction.

I don't dispute the copyist error explanation, though it is not the only one.

The point is, if the authority of holy scripture is reduced from divine, inerrant word of god, to - the best they could do under the circumstance -
then those that would use holy scripture as a tool of coercion are left firing blanks.

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful." sometimes attributed to Seneca the Younger (c.3 BCE - CE 65)
I don't mind a little guidance now & then.

But I am alert to ruse when the preacher's pov is imposed as a divine imperative, the way anti-choice oppressors are known to do.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

I think the ancients are more intelligent than we are inclined to give them credit for.

After all...they built the structures than many are standing today. Because they knew how to mix the material that made it last... We don't or we're too damn lazy to do it

 

[Meriweather]

a) You presume.
Let us instead agree that scripture is to be researched and understood. Whether any holy scripture is the word of god is a very separate issue.

We said the same thing, using different words. For me, study and research have always been synonymous--particularly when it comes to scripture.

 

[Meriweather]

There's more than one way to fleece a flock.
My comment was addressed at the one, extremist strategy of absolutizing holy scripture. It's a simple strategy. By assuming scriptural infallibility there is no challenging it. All the preacher need do is quote the scripture, and then say: "Your quarrel is not with me. It's with the Holy Bible. And the Holy Bible cannot be questioned, as it is the inerrant word of god."

This may be unfamiliar to some. I've seen it more than once. And I've never been a Christian.

Never even heard of it until I read your post, which tells me the two of us have had very different experiences.

 

[Meriweather]

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826), U.S. president. Letter, 10 Aug. 1787

I suppose one could take that route. As for me, I was more interested in seeking and finding than figuring out appropriate questions. Find. Then ask questions. Might be doing things in reverse, but that often works for me.

 

[Meriweather]

The point is, if the authority of holy scripture is reduced from divine, inerrant word of god, to - the best they could do under the circumstance -
then those that would use holy scripture as a tool of coercion are left firing blanks.

Hopefully any scripture used as a tool of coercion crumbles. Scripture tells the story of God in our midst.

 

[Meriweather]

But I am alert to ruse when the preacher's pov is imposed as a divine imperative, the way anti-choice oppressors are known to do.

Again, never had the experience.

 

[Gracie]

During the many MANY translations to make the bible the bible...one of the translators was dyslexic.

Welll nobody has a sense of humor around here. I guess I shoulda added a smiley.



There. It was tongue in cheek. But I still stand by translations being screwed up from time to time, according TO the times it was transcribed.

 

[Gracie]

You take gospels..many many hundreds of years old. You have transcribers transcribing. You have your superiors standing over you or dictating to HURRY UP, so and so is waiting! You have agendas of THAT TIME. So some gets left out. Some is written wrong in translating. You have people who are not Jesus Christ, who are human, who are IMPERFECT. Add all that up and you get a clusterfuck in SOME of the gospels.

Ever play the game when you were a kid where a line of you stood shoulder to shoulder? First kid said "the sky is blue". Second kid says "the sky is blue with clouds". Third kid says the girl in the blue dress is a pain. Fourth kid says "We get blue cheese with our lunch salad". Fifth kid says "A blue octopus said the sky is falling!".

Same thing. IN MY OPINION. Thumpers can stfu about MY opinion.