Division of State and Church?

[Mortimer]

I generally agree with the division of state and church, the church will get corrupted if it involves itself as institution too much into politics. BUT individual christians can and should work to do the will of God and if they are politicians, they can and should do the will of God also in politics.

Agree or Disagree?



Matthew 6,33
But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

 

[emilynghiem]

I generally agree with the division of state and church, the church will get corrupted if it involves itself as institution too much into politics. BUT individual christians can and should work to do the will of God and if they are politicians, they can and should do the will of God also in politics.

Agree or Disagree?



Matthew 6,33
But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

The policies and decisions, with either church or state, religious or secular public institutions, should be consistent and meet universal standards of truth and justice for the common good.

The difference is that internal policies respect personal choices and FREE WILL of individuals, while public policies affecting external security and commerce in society are LEGALLY REQUIRED mandates that all the governed people CONSENT to make mandatory.

We have to AGREE what remains rights and choices of the people, what is delegated to State levels of govt, and what is authorized to federal govt.

Where we have differences in beliefs, that is where govt is not supposed to be abused to establish religion, penalize or force people over faith based preferences, or discriminate by creed.

Unfortunately, people being imperfect and biased keep using parties and political lobbying and leverage to force their beliefs through govt to dominate, overrule and exclude others.

US Govt and Constitutional laws were intended to give people representation and process for checking and reforming govt to address and prevent abuses.

We will see if the power of the people, by our free will, freedom of speech and press, and right to petition to defend our free exercise of beliefs and equal due process and protections, is enough to overcome the constant abuse of political power to push onesided beliefs through govt at the expense of others.

Ideally, we should respect all people's beliefs, and not abuse govt to violate anyone's beliefs and freedom.

But after things go wrong, and once overreaching policies and corrupt waste of taxpayer money are established through govt, then all parties compete to fix the problems by their beliefs. So they both claim the other is abusing govt.

The conflicts between ideologies or "political religions" must be resolved first, directly between the people, BEFORE we can reform govt policies to reflect any such agreed solutions. If political groups keep fighting to push just their ideologies through govt, the problems get worse.

Govt was not designed for establishing beliefs by imposing mandates on others.

The sustainable principles of self govt work based on consent of the people so that authority of law is binding.

There is no separation of church and state where people compete in groups to force their beliefs on everyone else.

 

[DudleySmith]

I have no problems with Xians 'forcing their beliefs' on baby killers, pedophiles, homicidal sociopaths, thieves, and 'social darwinists', i.e. Democrats and their fellow travelers on the right, none at all. I like the original intent of our establishment clause, keeping the federal government from interfering in any way whatsoever with Christians and their evangelical social agendas, and the Fed and the individual states should be providing funds to support their many activities and functions. Thomas Jefferson himself allocated Federal funds to promote Christianity as President, and we should continue that practice.

 

[SweetSue92]

That phrase only means that there is No Official American Church. In England there is "The Church of England", for example. There is no "The Church of America".

People routinely misinterpret this to mean that there can be NO religious expression anywhere near any gov institution, building, events, workers, etc. That's....not what it means

 

[SweetSue92]

I have no problems with Xians 'forcing their beliefs' on baby killers, pedophiles, homicidal sociopaths, thieves, and 'social darwinists', i.e. Democrats and their fellow travelers on the right, none at all

The 21st century is such a head fake that Leftist screech all day long about Christians "forcing their beliefs" on them even while they are, as the latest example, trying to force an injection in our arms that does not even eliminate transmission; trying to force us to admit biological men in to our daughters' changing rooms while we call them "women"; try to make us admit that the burning, looting and pillaging of our cities are "peaceful protests".

They are a whole joke

 

[Colin norris]

I generally agree with the division of state and church, the church will get corrupted if it involves itself as institution too much into politics. BUT individual christians can and should work to do the will of God and if they are politicians, they can and should do the will of God also in politics.

Agree or Disagree?



Matthew 6,33
But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

You speak of God etc as if It is a given.
Give it a rest.

 

[DudleySmith]

You speak of God etc as if It is a given.
Give it a rest.

So move to Red China; you'll love the place; they lock up people like Mortimer and harvest their organs for big bucks. You could try and be a good little Cadre snitch and work your way up the cretin ladder.

 

[DudleySmith]

That phrase only means that there is No Official American Church. In England there is "The Church of England", for example. There is no "The Church of America".

People routinely misinterpret this to mean that there can be NO religious expression anywhere near any gov institution, building, events, workers, etc. That's....not what it means

Yes. It was adopted from the Baptists Creed, in response to the Anglican Church's plan to make itself the state favored religion in all of the states and the Federal government, it's latest operations being a big push in New York state having met with some resistance, and its activities under the British occupation of New York City during the Revolution having made all of the colonies paranoid over them.

The clause did not apply to the individual states, as is clearly seen by the states who kept theirs until long after the ratification of the Constitution.

 

[Colin norris]

So move to Red China; you'll love the place; they lock up people like Mortimer and harvest their organs for big bucks.

What has that idiotic statement got to do with God? Do you believe all atheists are communists? You made a mistake with and his cronies.
Christ your dumb.

 

[DudleySmith]

What has that idiotic statement got to do with God? Do you believe all atheists are communists? You made a mistake with and his cronies.
Christ your dumb.

Why are you embarrassed by being a commie deviant? That's just neurotic. Are you saying you don't want to be a big shot Cadre apparatnik and lord it over the peasants? lol of course you do, so don't be shy.

 

[Colin norris]

Why are you embarrassed by being a commie deviant? That's just neurotic. Are you saying you don't want to be a big shot Cadre apparatnik and lord it over the peasants? lol of course you do, so don't be shy.

I'm not embarrassed by that because I not one.
That's just a label repigs give anyone they hate or can't meet the challenges. You can call me what you like and it will never intimidate me. It clearly shows what an intellectual vacuum you are. Not enough I tellivence to debate anything so out comes the obligatory communist slurs.
Grow up you fool. You don't have the smarts.

 

[foggedinn]

Jesus was a Priest king.
The biblical model is that the Church and state are one. This is true in both the OT and NT.

The constitution is a political document. The current political climate is making the constitution moot.

The Word of God is eternal, the constitution is not.

 

[Colin norris]

Jesus was a Priest king.
The biblical model is that the Church and state are one. This is true in both the OT and NT.

The constitution is a political document. The current political climate is making the constitution moot.

The Word of God is eternal, the constitution is not.

There's not a single word in any bible that was written by God. Not one.
It was all written by people who thought they spoke in gods name. In fact, they could not have possible known what he thought. He never contacted them, no texts etc. How could they know?

So let's get a few facts into this religious lesson and stop promoting a book written by proven liars and dodgy prophets.

 

[foggedinn]

There's not a single word in any bible that was written by God. Not one.
It was all written by people who thought they spoke in gods name. In fact, they could not have possible known what he thought. He never contacted them, no texts etc. How could they know?

So let's get a few facts into this religious lesson and stop promoting a book written by proven liars and dodgy prophets.

A post deserving of a Bronx cheer.

 

[danielpalos]

I generally agree with the division of state and church, the church will get corrupted if it involves itself as institution too much into politics. BUT individual christians can and should work to do the will of God and if they are politicians, they can and should do the will of God also in politics.

Agree or Disagree?



Matthew 6,33
But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

Job 34:30 That the hypocrite reign not, lest the people be ensnared.

 

[Colin norris]

A post deserving of a Bronx cheer.

Don't do that unless you can prove me wrong and I know you can't.

 

[buttercup]

What has that idiotic statement got to do with God? Do you believe all atheists are communists? You made a mistake with and his cronies.
Christ your dumb.

Never a good idea to call someone dumb while misspelling the word "you're."

 

[sear]

Govt was not designed for establishing beliefs by imposing mandates on others.

The sustainable principles of self govt work based on consent of the people so that authority of law is binding.

As you know Jefferson referred to it in his DOI, "the consent of the governed" *.

Thanks e #2.
Interesting read.

There is no separation of church and state where people compete in groups to force their beliefs on everyone else.

You lost me.
Government forcing their "beliefs" on you? Name one.

I've got my own pet peeve: the pledge of allegiance. It's a fabulous commitment. I'm all for it. BUT !!
They coerce young children to take this "pledge", same as an oath.
But citizens that age are not in law granted the legal right to benefit from, for example signing a contract.
Yet we coerce children as young as first grade to recite this pledge daily, hand over heart. Don't know if they still do. But they did to me, and hundreds of my closest friends.
That's all the more unseemly in "public" school, a euphemism for "government" school.
If it was in China we'd call it brain-washing.
If in Europe we might call it "propaganda".
But it's in the U.S.
So what do we call it? Please pardon my ramble.

* "the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form
of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the
People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its
foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to
them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness." TJ / DOI

 

[Natural Citizen]

That phrase only means that there is No Official American Church. In England there is "The Church of England", for example. There is no "The Church of America".

People routinely misinterpret this to mean that there can be NO religious expression anywhere near any gov institution, building, events, workers, etc. That's....not what it means

Yeah, good point, Sue. It is something that is almost universally misunderstood in modern America.

With regard to any law "respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, the words "an establishment of religion" was intended to mean, specifically and only, a church or religious organization which is established, supported and preferred by the government, like the Church of England establishments that you mentioned which were then existing in some of the States.

Very, very good, grasshoppa. I'm impressed!

 

[Natural Citizen]

Never a good idea to call someone dumb while misspelling the word "you're."

He does it all the time, too. It's funny.