Puzzling Verses in the Gospel of John--Insights/Opinions

[onefour1]

People were drawn to God before Jesus was born so clearly a different analysis of these verses is required.

Jesus was the Great I AM. He was the God of the Old Testament.

John 8:58​

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Exodus 3:14
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

 

[.oldschool]

Jesus was the Great I AM. He was the God of the Old Testament.

John 8:58​

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Mark 1:9-11
King James Version
9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.

10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

 

[SweetSue92]

John 6:44 - No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him...
John 14:6 - No one comes to the Father except through me.

This suddenly struck me as two verses at odds with each other. It seems more logical that it is either one or the other...how can it be both? Does the Father draw us to Jesus, or does Jesus alone draw us to the Father? Your thoughts?

John 6:44 it is an act of grace, and not of ourselves. We are not "awakened" to it, God awakens, through the Spirit, in the same way Adam did not awaken himself. God did

John 14:6 But we must also accept Jesus Christ, His Son

(the above is my interpretation of course, not the actual Bible verses!)

 

[SweetSue92]

During the many MANY translations to make the bible the bible...one of the translators was dyslexic.

You are correct that God did not "write" the Bible with his God-Hand

Therefore

The Bible had to be translated, rewritten, etc.

You either believe His Spirit had a "hand" in that or you do not. Because it is so accurate in prophecy and other particulars, and other reasons, I believe the Spirit was mightily at work. If you believe it was not, then you might as well dismiss it entirely.

Or, as C.S. Lewis said, if Jesus said the things he said about himself and was not the actual Lord of the universe, then he was a liar or a lunatic, not just a 'good teacher'. Take your pick: Lord, Liar, or Lunatic. He did not leave "good teacher" open to you.

(paraphrase of Lewis there)

 

[Gracie]

You are correct that God did not "write" the Bible with his God-Hand

Therefore

The Bible had to be translated, rewritten, etc.

You either believe His Spirit had a "hand" in that or you do not. Because it is so accurate in prophecy and other particulars, and other reasons, I believe the Spirit was mightily at work. If you believe it was not, then you might as well dismiss it entirely.

Or, as C.S. Lewis said, if Jesus said the things he said about himself and was not the actual Lord of the universe, then he was a liar or a lunatic, not just a 'good teacher'. Take your pick: Lord, Liar, or Lunatic. He did not leave "good teacher" open to you.

(paraphrase of Lewis there)

And there you go again. Dictating as you thump.
Tell me where I ever said I didn't believe the WHOLE of the bible. G'wan, Miss Thump, who demands in ever ******* post that it's either this or that and if not what YOU believe, why, everyone else is wrong.
**** you and the bible you rode in on.

 

[Colin norris]

John 6:44 - No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him...
John 14:6 - No one comes to the Father except through me.

This suddenly struck me as two verses at odds with each other. It seems more logical that it is either one or the other...how can it be both? Does the Father draw us to Jesus, or does Jesus alone draw us to the Father? Your thoughts?

It is neither because it didn't happen.
Like many of those bible passages, they were concocted each time it was revised to become more apicable and to further the detail they think they got from God.
Again, it didn't happen.

 

[SweetSue92]

And there you go again. Dictating as you thump.
Tell me where I ever said I didn't believe the WHOLE of the bible. G'wan, Miss Thump, who demands in ever ******* post that it's either this or that and if not what YOU believe, why, everyone else is wrong.
**** you and the bible you rode in on.

I would not disrespect Muslims by going into their religion and saying, screw that, Islam is whatever I say it is.

But somehow, people can do that to Christianity. Right? And people who actually study, worship, dedicate the time and effort just get told F you, it's whatever I say it is.

No. You can do whatever you like, but it's not "whatever you say it is". It's what Jesus Christ says it is. And if you want to call me a Bible Thumper for that, I'll put it on a T shirt.

 

[onefour1]

Mark 1:9-11
King James Version
9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.

10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Jesus is the son of the Father, but I think you are assuming that the Father is the Great I AM who spoke unto Moses. Even though the Father and Son are one in purpose and glory and both are part of the Godhead, it is Jesus, acting under the direction of the Father, who spoke to Moses in the burning bush as the Great I AM and who later appeared to him and spoke with him face to face. He has always acted as the God of the Old Testament under the direction of the Father.

Hosea 13:4-5​

4 Yet I am the Lord thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.

Isaiah 45:21-22​

21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Here Jesus, acting under the direction of the Father as Jehovah or the Great I AM let Hosea and Isaiah know that He also was the Savior of the world.

 

[.oldschool]

Jesus is the son of the Father, but I think you are assuming that the Father is the Great I AM who spoke unto Moses

No, the angel of the Lord spoke with Moses.

 

[DudleySmith]

John 6:44 - No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him...
John 14:6 - No one comes to the Father except through me.

This suddenly struck me as two verses at odds with each other. It seems more logical that it is either one or the other...how can it be both? Does the Father draw us to Jesus, or does Jesus alone draw us to the Father? Your thoughts?

The short answer is that they are parts of two different narratives; 6:14 is part of Jesus's 'nourishment' narrative, from 6:1 to 8:44, while 14:6 is part of the narrative of God's bridegroom sacrificed as King of the Jews, John chapters 12 through 19. When puzzled by something just go check out if it is part of a chaism structure first; it will usually explain the puzzle or point to something that does.

 

[onefour1]

No, the angel of the Lord spoke with Moses.

In Exodus 3, it does say that an angel of the Lord appeared unto Moses in the flaming fire (see verse 2). But the angel wasn't the only one there. God then spoke to Moses from the bush (see verses 4,6,7,11,13,14,15).

It is interesting that the God of the Old Testament created the heavens and the earth:

Genesis 1:1​

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

But we later come to know who is was that actually did the creations:

Ephesians 3:9​

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

God the Father created the heavens and the earth through his son Jesus Christ. So we see that through the direction of the Father, the Son has done great things.

 

[DudleySmith]

The Bible is internally consistent, all the way through. It is opinion and interpretations of it that are inconsistent and cause imaginary 'differences'.

 

[.oldschool]

In Exodus 3, it does say that an angel of the Lord appeared unto Moses in the flaming fire (see verse 2). But the angel wasn't the only one there. God then spoke to Moses from the bush (see verses 4,6,7,11,13,14,15).

It is interesting that the God of the Old Testament created the heavens and the earth:

Genesis 1:1​

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

But we later come to know who is was that actually did the creations:

Ephesians 3:9​

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

God the Father created the heavens and the earth through his son Jesus Christ. So we see that through the direction of the Father, the Son has done great things.

The gospel of John is dubious by any measure. Transplanting Jesus into the Old Testament does not wash with me.

 

[Meriweather]

I don't see the contradiction. Don't know if you are overthinking it or underthinking it. Both passages stand alone as revealed truth.

Merely pondering. It may be as simple as DudleySmith stated, nothing more or less than the point of two different narratives. Still, I find it interesting. Trying to find a verse in John that may show how both are linked by introducing the Holy Spirit. For me, the Holy Spirit works in the Trinity from both directions. But I would like to see if that is how John also so it.

The short answer is that they are parts of two different narratives; 6:14 is part of Jesus's 'nourishment' narrative, from 6:1 to 8:44, while 14:6 is part of the narrative of God's bridegroom sacrificed as King of the Jews, John chapters 12 through 19. When puzzled by something just go check out if it is part of a chaism structure first; it will usually explain the puzzle or point to something that does.

 

[onefour1]

John 1:18
18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

In this verse the word God is referring to the Father. The verse is interesting because it is the only begotten Son that declares him to us.

Now take a look at the God of the Old Testament.

Exodus 33:17-23
17 And the Lord said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.

18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.

19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:

22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:

23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

In this verse obviously the God of Moses showed himself by showing his back parts to Moses. So how is it possible if John 1:18 tells us that no man has seen God at any time. My answer is that John 1:18 speaks of the Father but Exodus 33 speaks of the God who in the beginning created the heaven and the earth and is the Savior, ie Jesus Christ.

The same argument could be said regarding Jacob.

Genesis 32:30​

30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

 

[Clyde 154]

Here's how I say they are both true... I think that God draws all people to Him in different ways. In other words, I think that God initiates a connection with each one of us. (Don't quote me on this, but there may be a point where God no longer reaches out, if a person has repeatedly chosen to reject God and wants nothing to do with God...but that's a topic in and of itself.)

At the same time, when we respond to God and believe and receive the gift of salvation (or 'redemption' since you prefer that word), it is through Jesus. In other words, believing that JESUS paid the price for us, and it's not through our own efforts. As the bible says, the only "work" is to believe/ have faith. (John 6:29) And part of a saving faith is having a change of mind and heart, and choosing to follow Jesus.

At odds? Really? Why can't both passages be true? What exactly prohibits God from tugging on your heart string (its called a Conscience) that stops Jesus statement, "I am way....." from being true? The scriptures point out that Jesus is God incarnate, thus.......God and the Christ work with one accord.

There are steps to salvation. The bible clearly states that salvation from sin is only in Christ (Acts 4:12).

What are the steps necessary to man to pass from a sentence of spiritual death ( eternal separation from God) to life in Jesus Christ the Savior? Jesus is "....the author of ETENRAL SALVATION to all who obey Him." -- Heb. 5:9

Indeed Jesus stated, "I am the way, the truth and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." -- John 14:6

In the same book of John we find this statement, "And the word was made flesh, and dwelt among us (Jesus), and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." -- John 1:14 To clear things us with no ambiguity whatsoever. Who was the Word? "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD." -- John 1:1

Why does God tuck on your conscience? God wants everyone to be saved (1 Peter 4:6, 1 Tim. 2:4) The Word is Jesus, The Word is God......again why can't both passages be true?

How can one be drawn unless one first believes? And if you believe you will follow the advise of God in relation to salvation.

Gods Advise as to how to be saved? Step 1. Faith/Belief, one has to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God...i.e., God incarnate (John 16:16, John 6:69) That Jesus was sent from heaven as the only Savior from sin (John 8:24)...that "He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son does not have life." -- 1 John 5:12 One has to accept that you are living a life of sin and are without hope if you first do not believe.........no one can trust themselves to find salvation (Rom. 3:8-23) Once you believe you must ask the question, "What must I do.........."

Step 2. Repent or turn away from your old sinful life (Luke 13:3) 3. Confess to the deity of Jesus the Christ, that He is indeed the Christ of prophecy, sent from heaven to establish His eternal kingdom .......as confession leads to salvation (Rom. 10:9, Matt. 16:16, 1 Tim 6:12)

4. Be born again.........through the symbolic act of water baptism, born of the water and the Spirit. This symbolic act is where one dies and is born again, where one comes into spiritual contact with the Blood of Christ to cleanse one of all sin, as the old man dies (2 Col. 2:11-14, 2 Cor. 5:17) and a new life begins when one arises from the water like Jesus arose from the grave (Rom.6:3-5,17-18, Gal. 3:26-27, Rev. 1:5) For the forgiveness of sin (Acts 2:38, 22:16, 1 Peter 3:21)

 

[.oldschool]

Trying to find a verse in John that may show how both are linked by introducing the Holy Spirit

Imagine Jesus is talking through the Holy Spirit he received at his baptism. Transpose the man (me) with the Holy Spirit. The Spirit he received from the father. Just a thought.

Chapter 14 of the Gospel of John - Original Greek text and translation

Chapter 14 of the Gospel of John - Original Greek text and translation

www.gospel-john.com

 

[Meriweather]

Imagine Jesus is talking through the Holy Spirit he received at his baptism. Transpose the man (me) with the Holy Spirit. The Spirit he received from the father. Just a thought.

And a good thought.

 

[ding]

The short answer is that they are parts of two different narratives; 6:14 is part of Jesus's 'nourishment' narrative, from 6:1 to 8:44, while 14:6 is part of the narrative of God's bridegroom sacrificed as King of the Jews, John chapters 12 through 19. When puzzled by something just go check out if it is part of a chaism structure first; it will usually explain the puzzle or point to something that does.

Correct.

The gospel narrative contains a series of “signs”—the gospel’s word for the wondrous deeds of Jesus. I believe 6:44 is merely referring to the fact that not everyone accepted those signs even after witnessing those signs. Just as not everyone today will accept those signs after being informed of those signs.

In 14:6 Jesus is responding to a direct question from Thomas. Jesus was explaining that he must leave and told them that where he was going they would know the way. Thomas was confused and said, “Master, we do not know where you are going; how can we know the way?” Jesus responded by saying to him, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. I take this to mean to do as Jesus has done... to die to self. It's the only way to see reality and God is reality itself.

 

[ding]

The way is a state of being. Which I believe the early Christians understood after receiving the Holy Spirit.