Zone1 Purgatory makes perfect sense.

[CarlinAnnArbor]

I mean, how do you argue with something that is so blatantly false? The concept of Heaven and hell as reward and punishment are all over the Bible.

Nope. Christ Returns to Jerusalem with the RESURRECTED saints (resurrected from the grave AT HIS RETURN There He established the Kingdom of God ON THE EARTH.

He will rule from JERUSALEM for 1,000 years. After that, the Father comes down to the purified NEW Earth (purified by fire) and makes His home on the EARTH.

The wicked are gone forever. Physical life will end on earth and only the sons and daughters RESURRECTED spirit Beings will inhabit the New Earth. THAT is Biblical

 

[kjw47]

Those things were worshipped in the OT. The RCC doesn't worship statues or icons. I know this, because I am a practicing Catholic. Those are simply focal points and reminders. I have explained this dozens of times to protestants. If you question my explanation, you aren't interested in understanding; you are interested in maintaining your prejudices.

They kiss their little icon crosses--They bow to a carved image behind the pulpit. Both are graven images that can do 0, The king Jesus who sits on a throne in heaven can.
There is much more that assures they live in darkness
Jesus= Love, peace, unity-- Antichrist= hate, war, division.

Who did they listen to in the rev war, the civil war, ww1, ww2--They killed the members of their own religion who stood on the opposite side divided in hate. blowing each others heads off. They even did it for a man named Hitler=a satanistic, power mad murderer. And the clergy told both sides God was on their side. And the biggest hipocrosy all creation ever witnessed= praying to the same God on both sides-- the bloodguilt has amassed to the heavens.

 

[Mashmont]

They kiss their little icon crosses--They bow to a carved image behind the pulpit. Both are graven images that can do 0,

There you go. You didn't listen to what I, a lifetime practicing Catholic, said we do. You have no desire to learn, just the need to be contentious.

Certain protestants, aka the Baptists will go on and on about Baptism by immersion vs Baptism by pouring, how the latter is evil. Little details like that. Then they ignore the critical message of charity.

Instead of clinging to and obsessing all the little nettlesome practices like the Pharisees did, why not look at the big picture, like Jesus did. Love one another.

 

[ninja007]

St Paul: "It is necessary that we undero many hardships in order to enter Heaven"

"Work out your salvation with fear and trembling"

Phil 2:12

(that doesn't sound like fun to me. You?)

he is speaking about sanctification...... and that has zero to do with purgatory- did Jesus not finish His work on the Cross? Was His perfect sacrifice/gift not enough?

 

[Mashmont]

he is speaking about sanctification...... and that has zero to do with purgatory

Again, st. Paul says men have to undergo hardships to get to Heaven. If you don't have them on earth, there is only one other option: Purgatory

did Jesus not finish His work on the Cross? Was His perfect sacrifice/gift not enough?

This typical Protestant argument implies people don't have to do their part to get to Heaven, through good works and suffering. They do.

 

[Clyde 154]

The Apostle Paul states that its easy to fall from grace..........there is no once saved, always saved doctrine. Salvation comes after the race called life is over. (1 Cor. 9:24-27).

There is no mention of a spiritual realm called Purgatory found in the Bible; no mention of a realm/place where the dead can pay for their sins through punishment. There is no mention of holding MASS for the dead in the Bible; No mention of lighting candles for the dead; All the above are doctrines of men based upon man made TRADITIONS which the Christ warned against, "And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines, the commandments of men." -- Matthew 15:9 Funny thing? All these things (candles...etc.) are purchased directly from the RCC by the families that use them. There are reasons the RCC promotes things not authorized by the actual content of the Holy Bible.

 

[kjw47]

There you go. You didn't listen to what I, a lifetime practicing Catholic, said we do. You have no desire to learn, just the need to be contentious.

Certain protestants, aka the Baptists will go on and on about Baptism by immersion vs Baptism by pouring, how the latter is evil. Little details like that. Then they ignore the critical message of charity.

Instead of clinging to and obsessing all the little nettlesome practices like the Pharisees did, why not look at the big picture, like Jesus did. Love one another.

Those charities you mention fail both the needy and Jesus. Even though giving is a loving act and does provide a temp fix. Jesus taught all the permanent fix, why is that not taught to the needy along with the temp fix? And you probably dont even know that teaching from Jesus that provides the permanent fix. Its a super important teaching that it is a guarantee every true follower knows by heart already and applies it, thus are not in need of a temp fix, (barring disasters that occur on earth.)

 

[Mashmont]

The Apostle Paul states that its easy to fall from grace..........there is no once saved, always saved doctrine. Salvation comes after the race called life is over. (1 Cor. 9:24-27).

There is no mention of a spiritual realm called Purgatory found in the Bible; no mention of a realm/place where the dead can pay for their sins through punishment. There is no mention of holding MASS for the dead in the Bible; No mention of lighting candles for the dead; All the above are doctrines of men based upon man made TRADITIONS which the Christ warned against, "And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines, the commandments of men." -- Matthew 15:9 Funny thing? All these things (candles...etc.) are purchased directly from the RCC by the families that use them. There are reasons the RCC promotes things not authorized by the actual content of the Holy Bible.

1) I listed in my OP the basis of Purgatory in the bible.
2) The candles and such you mention are little things, not doctrine,
3) There are references to praying for the dead in the bible.

4 Biblical Proofs for Prayers to Saints and for the Dead

Among other proofs, the Bible casually assumes that great prophets like Moses and Samuel would be praying for those on earth after they died

www.ncregister.com

 

[Clyde 154]

1) I listed in my OP the basis of Purgatory in the bible.
2) The candles and such you mention are little things, not doctrine,
3) There are references to praying for the dead in the bible.

4 Biblical Proofs for Prayers to Saints and for the Dead

Among other proofs, the Bible casually assumes that great prophets like Moses and Samuel would be praying for those on earth after they died

www.ncregister.com

Your "listed" basis for the existence of Purgatory existing in the Bible are non-existent..........show me the book, chapter and verse were the word PURGATORY is listed. It does not exist. This is another example of the ignorant and unbalanced attempting to twist the scriptures to their own destruction (2 Peter 3:15-16). Again.........show me the WORD, unambigously existing by Book, Chapter and Verse. You will not because YOU CANNOT. You would have everyone believe that a Papal false interpretation trumps the actual words of the Christ? Really?

This is much like the RCC's attempt to twist Matthew 16 and declare that Peter was a POPE......and the rock upon which Christ's church was built.........when the scriptures declare that the church was constructed upon the truth that Jesus was the Son of God, the Messiah of prophecy. "Jesus was that ROCK/STONE" -- 1 Cor. 10:4 Just like "Purgatorty"..........there is no mention of a POPE in the Holy Bible.


on the flip side........there does exist the scriptural example of "Hades" (the realm of the dead awaiting judgment) and explained in detail as a place where its impossible for the living to communicate with the dead, beginning with (Luke 16:19) So much for your Candles and Doctrine of praying for the dead. Your Doctrine contradicts the teachings of the Christ. There is nothing in the Holy Bible that suggests that Hell is a temporary imprisonment. Once you are dead........you are dead and you will be judged by the content of the BOOKS (one book, the words of Jesus Christ, the inspired words of the Spirit of Truth...aka, the Holy Bible)........the other the Book of Life (your record of how you lived in comparison to the context of Jesus' teachings) -- Rev. 20:13.

Hades will not give up its dead.........the unrighteous or righteous until Judgment day. Then the quick and the dead will be judged. Again......so much for your prayers helping the dead.

Hell (lake of eternal fire) is reserved for the Old Dragon/Satan, his angels and the unrighteous (Rev. 20:10)

Jesus is describing what happens when the Spirit separates from the Body. Luke 16 ........He begins with 2 examples........a rich man (the unrighteous dead) and a man called "Lazarus" (a man that lived a righteous life). The righteous.......Lazarus is declared to be residing in the same place as Abraham (in the bosom of Abraham). (vs. 22) and is comforted (vs. 25).........while the unrighteous rich man exists in a constant state of torment (vs. 23) and anguish (vss 24,25). Thus when your Spirit is separated from your body you go to 1 of 2 places.......a place of comforting awaiting final judgment or a place of torment awaiting final judgment.....both places exist in the realm of the dead called "Hades"(one is Paradise, such as the example when Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with Jesus TODAY in paradise -- Luke 23:43)....there is no period of SLEEP as some would have you believe.

(vs 26) explains that there is no way possible for the unrighteous to change places with the righteous. Thus.....there is no possiblity that anyone's PRAYERS can redeem the dead that exists in either compartment of Hades.......so much for the prayers and candles again. Its a FALSE DOCTRINE established not by the actual content of the Holy Scriptures but by MEN.

 

[Mashmont]

Your "listed" basis for the existence of Purgatory existing in the Bible are non-existent..........show me the book, chapter and verse were the word PURGATORY is listed. It does not exist. This is another example of the ignorant and unbalanced attempting to twist the scriptures to their own destruction (2 Peter 3:15-16). Again.........show me the WORD, unambigously existing by Book, Chapter and Verse. You will not because YOU CANNOT. You would have everyone believe that a Papal decrees trump the actual words of the Christ? Really?


on the flip side........there does exist the scriptural example of "Hades" (the realm of the dead awaiting judgment) and explained in detail as a place where its impossible for the living to communicate with the dead, beginning with (Luke 16:19) So much for your Candles and Doctrine of praying for the dead. Your Doctrine contradicts the teachings of the Christ. There is nothing in the Holy Bible that suggests that Hell is a temporary imprisonment. Once you are dead........you are dead and you will be judged by the content of the BOOKS (one book, the words of Jesus Christ, the inspired words of the Spirit of Truth...aka, the Holy Bible)........the other the Book of Life (your record of how you lived in comparison to the context of Jesus' teachings) -- Rev. 20:13.

Hades will not give up its dead.........the unrighteous or rightesou until Judgment day. Then the quick and the dead will be judged. Again......so much for your prayers helping the dead.

Hell (lake of eternal fire) is reserved for the Old Dragon/Satan, his angels and the unrighteous (Rev. 20:10)

Jesus is describing what happens when the Spirit separates from the Body. Luke 16 ........He begins with 2 examples........a rich man (the unrighteous dead) and a man called "Lazarus" (a man that lived a righteous life). The righteous.......Lazarus is declared to be residing in the same place as Abraham (in the bosom of Abraham). (vs. 22) and is comforted (vs. 25).........while the unrighteous rich man exists in a constant state of torment (vs. 23) and anguish (vss 24,25). Thus when your Spirit is separated from your body you go to 1 of 2 places.......a place of comforting awaiting final judgment or a place of torment awaiting final judgment.....both places exist in the realm of the dead called "Hades"(one is Paradise, such as the example when Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with Jesus TODAY in paradise -- Luke 23:43)....there is no period of SLEEP as some would have you believe.

(vs 26) explains that there is no way possible for the unrighteous to change places with the righteous. Thus.....there is no possiblity that anyone's PRAYERS can redeem the dead that exists in either compartment of Hades.......so much for the prayers and candles again. Its a FALSE DOCTRINE established not by the actual content of the Holy Scriptures but by MEN.

A lot of things aren't mentioned in the Bible by the name we currently use for them.

"Every last penny will be paid". Explain what is meant by that, if not Purgatory.

Question for you. Reconcile this: If someone doesn't have to do anything to get to Heaven, why doesn't everybody get in? And don't say "Only if a person is 'saved' they will get in. If they act in an ungodly manner later on, they were never really saved in the first place". This is where the logic of "being saved" falls apart. Catholic doctrine doesn't have this pitfall. If you aren't doing right at the time of your death, you may not get into Heaven, and if you do, there will be cleansing that is necessary. There is no such thing as a free pass.

 

[Clyde 154]

A lot of things aren't mentioned in the Bible by the name we currently use them.

Question for you. Reconcile this: If someone doesn't have to do anything to get to Heaven, why doesn't everybody get in? And don't say "Only if a person is 'saved' they will get in. If they act in an ungodly manner later on, they were never really saved in the first place".

Yeah.....but HADES (the realm of the dead) is not one of them. Hades is explained in detail (Luke 16). The Christ's actual teachings contradict your FALSE DOCTRINES.

Who said that Works are not part of salvation, who said that you don't have to do anything to get into heaven? Do not confuse Paradise with Heaven.........Heaven comes after the final judgment.....after Hades gives up its dead (Rev. 20:13) Paradise is a compartment of Hades where the righteous dead await final judgment. Jesus went to Hades in Spirit and preached to the dead in order that the dead that died under the Old Law have access to His atoning sacrifical blood at the final judgment (1 Peter 4:6, 1 Peter 3:18-20) The Blood of Christ flows backward as well as forward. What? Is God to allow the righteous dead to be unjustly cast into Hell along with the unrightoues?

Ceratinly James did not declare that you have to do nothing to get into heaven. Works and Faith are equal.......they complement each other not contradict one another. "Faith without works is DEAD" -- James 2:17-26. Certainly not the Apostle Paul who declared that savaltion came after the race called life is over.......and even He was capable of falling from grace (1 Cor. 9:24-27) Its a daily struggle.......

"ITS A FEARFUL THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVINIG GOD." -- Heb. 10:31

 

[Mashmont]

Yeah.....but HADES (the realm of the dead) is not one of them. Hades is explained in detail (Luke 16). The Christ's actual teachings contradict your FALSE DOCTRINES.

"Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny".

Explain what is meant by that, if not Purgatory. Get out of where?

 

[Mashmont]

I have a question for you Protestants on the "being saved" issue.

Let's take the case of Jimmy Swaggart. Now I don't presume to judge Brother Swaggart; I am only using him to make a point.

Jimmy Swaggart has said he was saved long ago. Now when he was with that prostitute in 1987, let's suppose he had died right then and there before he had any chance to repent.

You Protestants then have three choices regarding Jimmy's eternal fate: You have to say either:
1) he goes straight to Heaven because he was saved as a young person.
2) He was never truly saved in the first place to have committed such a vile act without repenting.
Or 3). He was without mental faculties when he committed the adultery, therefore is not responsible for his actions, therefore still gets straight to Heaven.

That's it. You guys are painted into a corner. Now let's hear how you would square this.

The Catholic answer, of course, is people are capable of being led astray even after being in a state of holiness. And though many are believe they will reach heaven, as they know they aren't in the state of Mortal Sin, they have no idea how much cleansing will be required to get into Heaven, via Purgatory.

 

[Clyde 154]

"Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny".

Explain what is meant by that, if not Purgatory. Get out of where?

Why Attempt to swallow a camel while choking on a gnat? (Matthew 23:24) You explain what is meant by that single cherry picked line? What it cannot mean........according to the actual "unambigous" words of Christ is that you or no one else can pray for the dead..... to redem the spirits of the unrightous (Luke 16).

Would the Bible contradict its own teachings from one book to another? If it does.........then are we all not worshing in vain?

 

[Mashmont]

Why Attempt to swallow a camel while choking on a gnat? (Matthew 23:24) You explain what is meant by that single cherry picked line? What it cannot mean........according to the actual "unambigous" words of Christ is that you or no one else can pray for the dead..... to redem the spirits of the unrightous (Luke 16).

Would the Bible contradict its own teachings from one book to another? If it does.........then are we all not worshing in vain?

You're getting out of the question. What does "Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny" mean, if not Purgatory. Get out of where?

 

[notmyfault2020]

Nope. Christ Returns to Jerusalem with the RESURRECTED saints (resurrected from the grave AT HIS RETURN There He established the Kingdom of God ON THE EARTH.

He will rule from JERUSALEM for 1,000 years. After that, the Father comes down to the purified NEW Earth (purified by fire) and makes His home on the EARTH.

The wicked are gone forever. Physical life will end on earth and only the sons and daughters RESURRECTED spirit Beings will inhabit the New Earth. THAT is Biblical

where do you get this stuff?

?

 

[notmyfault2020]

unambigous" words of Christ is that you or no one else can pray for the dead..... to redem the spirits of the unrightous (Luke 16).

How would any mere human know what is "ambiguous" in the Bible or what is not?

We need a Church to interpret Scrpture. Fortunately we were given one, the Catholic Church.

In any case, RE the highlighted in your post

We do not pray for those in Purgatory to "redeem" them. They are already redeemed because they adhered to Christ in their lives,, up until the end. We pray so that they can be 100% purified of the ill effects of their --forgiven--sins. When we commit a sin, a residue remains even after sacramental forgiveness has been given. That's just reality. Sin makes us not want Heaven (holiness). So its ill effects must be purified off the soul. Otherwise, you could never enter Heaven where "no unclean thing will enter" (Revelation). Just as Christ's sufferings redeem and purify, our own sufferings can help those in Purgatory. We suffer in their stead.. just as Christ suffered in our stead.

 

[Clyde 154]

You're getting out of the question. What does "Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny" mean, if not Purgatory. Get out of where?

"Study to show yourself approved unto God.........a workman that needeth not be ashamed, RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH." -- 2 Tim.2:15

Puragotry and the very idea of praying for the dead that they might find attonement for their sins they committed in life.......is an absurd idea, found nowhere in the Holy Scriptures. As demonstrated........in order for your single cherry picked lines to be accepted as meaning something they do not mean.........you must make the actual content of the Holy Scriptures into a LIE.......a contradiction made by the same Holy Spirit of Truth. Again.........Show me Purgatory defined in the Bible by Book, Chapter and verse while maintaing the contextual integrity of the entire Chapter from which you picked your cherry.

I have demonstrated to you how you have attempted to claim passages are speaking about the Christ when in reality......the subject matter is being addressed as "SHE", with she being self defined by the passages as WISDOM which has existed since the beginning of creation............yet you continue to present the Christ as some DRAG QUEEN in order to find your purgatory in your man made orchard?


I am tellinig you as the scriptures do............"All scripture is inspired by the same God (2 Tim. 3:16-17).......the same Holy Spirit of Truth" that Jesus promised to His apostles to establish doctrine/all truth in order to record for future (2 Peter 1:13-16) generations (John 14:17, 16:13)..........God would would never contradict His own revelations. If you are twisting the scriptures to your own destruction because of ignorance or mental imbalance (2 Peter 3:16) in the attempt to create a Pergatory that cannot exist because the Christ delivered the TRUTH to the matter of Death and Hades being a place without transfer or escape (Luke 16:19-30)................YOU ARE NOT............

".....RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH".

When you attempt to take a single text (cherry pick) away from the entire context, content and subject matter of a Chapter of Scripture in order to make some lame attempt to justify your false doctrine..........You are swallowing a Camel while attempting to coke on a gnat.....just as the Christ charged those of His day for attempting to following man made tradtion instead of obeying the righteousness of the LAW. (Read Matthew 23). The RCC is doing today exactly what the Christ condemned in the 1st century......ignoring what is written (when there is a command by the Holy Spirit of God to, "......not go beyond or reason beyound THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN" -- 1 Cor. 4:6).......while attempting to worship God by man made traditions.

Personally I find the Catholic Church to be nothing but a religious arm of organized crime established by the Roman Empire for the purpose of Control, Wealth, Power, all being funneled back to Rome. The RCC attempts to do what the military of Rome could not do........control the world's wealth.

 

[kjw47]

1) I listed in my OP the basis of Purgatory in the bible.
2) The candles and such you mention are little things, not doctrine,
3) There are references to praying for the dead in the bible.

4 Biblical Proofs for Prayers to Saints and for the Dead

Among other proofs, the Bible casually assumes that great prophets like Moses and Samuel would be praying for those on earth after they died

www.ncregister.com

Ecclesiastes 9:5--The dead know nothing at all.

 

[Meriweather]

The dead know nothing at all.

That's true of the dead corpse. Not true of the spirit which returns to God. Or as also stated in scripture:

"I am the God of Moses....I am the God of Abraham....Or, as Jesus commented in Chapter 12 of the Gospel of Mark: "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”