Zone1 Purgatory makes perfect sense.

[Mashmont]

"Study to show yourself approved unto God.........a workman that needeth not be ashamed, RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH." -- 2 Tim.2:15

Puragotry and the very idea of praying for the dead that they might find attonement for their sins they committed in life.......is an absurd idea, found nowhere in the Holy Scriptures. As demonstrated........in order for your single cherry picked lines to be accepted as meaning something they do not mean.........you must make the actual content of the Holy Scriptures into a LIE.......a contradiction made by the same Holy Spirit of Truth. Again.........Show me Purgatory defined in the Bible by Book, Chapter and verse while maintaing the contextual integrity of the entire Chapter from which you picked your cherry.

I have demonstrated to you how you have attempted to claim passages are speaking about the Christ when in reality......the subject matter is being addressed as "SHE", with she being self defined by the passages as WISDOM which has existed since the beginning of creation............yet you continue to present the Christ as some DRAG QUEEN in order to find your purgatory in your man made orchard?


I am tellinig you as the scriptures do............"All scripture is inspired by the same God (2 Tim. 3:16-17).......the same Holy Spirit of Truth" that Jesus promised to His apostles to establish doctrine/all truth in order to record for future (2 Peter 1:13-16) generations (John 14:17, 16:13)..........God would would never contradict His own revelations. If you are twisting the scriptures to your own destruction because of ignorance or mental imbalance (2 Peter 3:16) in the attempt to create a Pergatory that cannot exist because the Christ delivered the TRUTH to the matter of Death and Hades being a place without transfer or escape (Luke 16:19-30)................YOU ARE NOT............

".....RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH".

When you attempt to take a single text (cherry pick) away from the entire context, content and subject matter of a Chapter of Scripture in order to make some lame attempt to justify your false doctrine..........You are swallowing a Camel while attempting to coke on a gnat.....just as the Christ charged those of His day for attempting to following man made tradtion instead of obeying the righteousness of the LAW. (Read Matthew 23). The RCC is doing today exactly what the Christ condemned in the 1st century......ignoring what is written (when there is a command by the Holy Spirit of God to, "......not go beyond or reason beyound THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN" -- 1 Cor. 4:6).......while attempting to worship God by man made traditions.

Personally I find the Catholic Church to be nothing but a religious arm of organized crime established by the Roman Empire for the purpose of Control, Wealth, Power, all being funneled back to Rome. The RCC attempts to do what the military of Rome could not do........control the world's wealth.

Cherry pick? We can use the whole passage if you like. The meaning is the same. What prison is being talked about here? It's the prison of purgatory. There is no other possibility. And once again, you have refused to addressed this passage.

…Reconcile quickly with your adversary, while you are still on the way to court. Otherwise, he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny

 

[Frankenstein]

That implies man doesn't have to do anything to get into Heaven, which is obviously untrue.

Confess and repent

 

[Mashmont]

Confess and repent

Man must do more than that. You have to love. And love is done through deeds.
"By your deeds shall you be judged"
"He will repay each according to his works".

 

[Frankenstein]

Man must do more than that. You have to love. And love is done through deeds.
"By your deeds shall you be judged"
"He will repay each according to his works".

Are3 you stating you have to work for your salvation?

 

[Mashmont]

Are3 you stating you have to work for your salvation?

Yes. You must do your part. You can't just do nothing and hope to gain Heaven. But it's not my words; it's the Bible's words.

 

[Frankenstein]

Yes. You must do your part. You can't just do nothing and hope to gain Heaven. But it's not my words; it's the Bible's words.

Ephesians 2:8-9
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New King James Version
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8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

 

[Meriweather]

Are3 you stating you have to work for your salvation?

Not only work it out, but as Paul said to the Philippians, Work it out with fear and trembling.

 

[ding]

My non-Catholic Christian friends believe people either go to Heaven or Hell. They don't believe in Purgatory. But in addition to being biblical (Maccabees, Luke, Corinthians, Timothy, Hebrews), the concept of Purgatory makes perfect sense. Only the perfect can be admitted to Heaven, and few die in a state that approaches perfection. So for those who followed God's teaching, but still have a ways to go, it's logical they would need to be purified. This purification MUST be unpleasant. We all know that facing unpleasant or difficult tasks or conditions on earth makes us tougher and better and more cheerful people. So it's logical purgatory is what we need for perfection.

My faith teaches that self-denial and penance are ways to avoid purgatory. Sacrifices on earth are far less painful than those we have to endure in Purgatory, so the best path is to do what we can on earth. Some have criticized Mother Teresa for her praise of suffering, but her misconstrued words were in the context I'm talking about, of improving yourself and working towards perfection.

Father Paul Sullivan, who authored a work in the 1940s called "How to Avoid Purgatory" gives a lot of ways we can go straight to heaven. One of the 'sufferings' we can do is by reacting positively to every inconvenience on earth, rather than complaining about them. Simple sacrifices like that. Never complain. That simple practice alone, changes your whole outlook. Father Sullivan's little book is among the most life-changing I've encountered. Another 'penance' comes from St. Therese Lisieux, who is considered one of the Church's greatest saints, and is a Doctor of the Church because of her doctrinal contributions. Her advice is to never miss an opportunity to be charitable to anyone and everyone you encounter in a day. This could be a smile or a kind word. You have dozens of opportunities a day to do this. You can do it five times on a trip to the supermarket.

You can also do acts of self-denial. Don't give in to an opportunity to comment negatively on someone or something. And suffering doesn't have to be this big onerous thing. It can be little things. If you like soy sauce on your rice, leave it out. On a short trip in the car on a cold day, leave off the heat. If you are faced with an unpleasant task, immediately grab it by the horns and embrace it. Overpower it. If you would love a soda right now, have a glass of water instead. If you are alone on a driving trip, say the Rosary or some other prayer. All these things will put you in a cheerful energetic frame of mind to where you are just bursting to do for others.

These techniques have actually been proven by science as being effective at producing happiness. And the same science says that happiness leads to success. That success doesn’t lead to happiness.

 

[Frankenstein]

Not only work it out, but as Paul said to the Philippians, Work it out with fear and trembling.

Not work for, because that makes the work on the cross unnecessary!

 

[kjw47]

That's true of the dead corpse. Not true of the spirit which returns to God. Or as also stated in scripture:

"I am the God of Moses....I am the God of Abraham....Or, as Jesus commented in Chapter 12 of the Gospel of Mark: "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”

You just twist it. To God those getting resurrected during Jesus 1000 year reign in Gods kingdom on earth are still living to God in a sense.

 

[Meriweather]

Not work for, because that makes the work on the cross unnecessary!

We may be on different trains of thought. Redemption vs saved.

 

[ding]

I wonder how many people feel they are ready to be in the holy place in the presence of All That Is Holy? No faults to be rid of, a clean soul to offer...

Only the ones that aren’t. The ones that are know they aren’t. Only a good man knows how bad he is. A bad man doesn’t have a clue. The moment one gets a clue the journey can progress.

 

[Meriweather]

Only the ones that aren’t. The ones that are know they aren’t. Only a good man knows how bad he is. A bad man doesn’t have a clue. The moment one gets a clue the journey can progress.

Well said.

 

[ding]

Well said.

I said progress instead of begin because I believe we are on the journey even when we don’t have a clue. He’s always pruning us. Everyone.

It’s only after we reflect that we can see the signs, but the power is in going forward. Peace through the storm.

 

[fncceo]

Reb Katz arrives in heaven where he faces Hashem. Hashem says, "Reb Katz, you've live a very good life, In fact, a little too good. Everything in your life has been a mitzvah."

Reb Katz replies, "Isn't that a good thing? To follow the commandments and do mitzvot?".

Hashem replies, "Well ... yes ... but ... no one is perfect. I'm afraid you're going to make the rest of us uncomfortable with this holier than thou shtick. SO ... I'm sending you back to the world for 24 hours. In which, you are not to do a single mitzvah."

So, Reb Katz finds himself back on earth where he wanders around all day, looking for a sin to commit. It's getting late so he goes to a bar where he meets a beautiful shiksa. He has a drink with her and she invites him back to her place. Reb Katz commits a sin with the woman, several times in fact. Just before midnight, Reb Katz is satisfied that he has fulfilled Hashem's request and will be let into heaven. Just as he's getting dressed, the shiksa, still lying in bed turns to him and says, "Oy, Reb Katz. That was SUCH A MITZVAH!".

 

[ding]

 

[Mashmont]

Ephesians 2:8-9​

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New King James Version​

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8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

The passage is saying man can't do it by himself.

 

[Mashmont]

Not work for, because that makes the work on the cross unnecessary!

No, it doesn't. It takes both.

 

[Mashmont]

Yeah.....but HADES (the realm of the dead) is not one of them. Hades is explained in detail (Luke 16). The Christ's actual teachings contradict your FALSE DOCTRINES.

Who said that Works are not part of salvation, who said that you don't have to do anything to get into heaven? Do not confuse Paradise with Heaven.........Heaven comes after the final judgment.....after Hades gives up its dead (Rev. 20:13) Paradise is a compartment of Hades where the righteous dead await final judgment. Jesus went to Hades in Spirit and preached to the dead in order that the dead that died under the Old Law have access to His atoning sacrifical blood at the final judgment (1 Peter 4:6, 1 Peter 3:18-20) The Blood of Christ flows backward as well as forward. What? Is God to allow the righteous dead to be unjustly cast into Hell along with the unrightoues?

Ceratinly James did not declare that you have to do nothing to get into heaven. Works and Faith are equal.......they complement each other not contradict one another. "Faith without works is DEAD" -- James 2:17-26. Certainly not the Apostle Paul who declared that savaltion came after the race called life is over.......and even He was capable of falling from grace (1 Cor. 9:24-27) Its a daily struggle.......

"ITS A FEARFUL THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVINIG GOD." -- Heb. 10:31

I think we are in agreement on the basic principles. Jesus saved mankind, but mankind still has to do works to reach Heaven.

 

[Meriweather]

Jesus saved mankind, but mankind still has to do works to reach Heaven.

It is why I prefer the word 'redeemed'. I also compare it to Jesus' healing ministry. After people were healed, their mindset was not, "I have to go back and earn healing." That healing was a gift. Now one goes on, using the talents given them. If they don't use them wisely, those talents will be taken from them, and it matters not that they had once said, "Lord, Lord."

I believe the same is true of Redemption. Jesus' life and ministry brought redemption to mankind. We are redeemed. Just like the person Jesus' healed, we don't have to try to earn healing or redemption--that has already occurred. However, what do we do after we are healed, after we are redeemed? We use the power of healing/redemption to make even more of our lives. If we do, we become more; if we do not, we become less.