Zone1 Purgatory makes perfect sense.

[zaangalewa]

macabees isnt in the bible. it should not be.

See: Septuagint - Wikipedia

 

[Mashmont]

incorrect; you do that because you are ALREADY saved; not in order to get saved- and yes loving others is a work. you cannot mix law or good works with grace.

See, that gets us on the slippery slope of "If you were 'saved' then start to do really bad stuff, then you weren't really saved in the first place."

Those mental gymnastics are unnecessary in Catholicism. You are as you do. You can go good, you can go bad, and you can go back and forth. It's what you're doing and thinking at the end that counts the most.

 

[Mashmont]

bible verse?

I listed the books in the OP

 

[Calypso Jones]

Maccabees is in the Catholic Bible.

yes i know. So are the last two chapters of Daniel. Ever read those? I like maccabees but i also understand why it was left out.

I hesitate to say this but most catholics do not know the difference in the two bibles. nor do protestants for that matter.

 

[notmyfault2020]

yes i know. So are the last two chapters of Daniel. Ever read those? I like maccabees but i also understand why it was left out.

I hesitate to say this but most catholics do not know the difference in the two bibles. nor do protestants for that matter.

I have read the entire bible AND heard it several times over since readers at Mass.. if one goes to DAILY Mass .. tell us the entire thing every 3 years. So I have heard it over and over something like 7 times now.

But the Bible was never meant to be taken out of its context: the Church Christ founded that put together those Books

 

[Clyde 154]

My non-Catholic Christian friends believe people either go to Heaven or Hell. They don't believe in Purgatory. But in addition to being biblical (Maccabees, Luke, Corinthians, Timothy, Hebrews), the concept of Purgatory makes perfect sense. Only the perfect can be admitted to Heaven, and few die in a state that approaches perfection. So for those who followed God's teaching, but still have a ways to go, it's logical they would need to be purified. This purification MUST be unpleasant. We all know that facing unpleasant or difficult tasks or conditions on earth makes us tougher and better and more cheerful people. So it's logical purgatory is what we need for perfection.

My faith teaches that self-denial and penance are ways to avoid purgatory. Sacrifices on earth are far less painful than those we have to endure in Purgatory, so the best path is to do what we can on earth. Some have criticized Mother Teresa for her praise of suffering, but her misconstrued words were in the context I'm talking about, of improving yourself and working towards perfection.

Father Paul Sullivan, who authored a work in the 1940s called "How to Avoid Purgatory" gives a lot of ways we can go straight to heaven. One of the 'sufferings' we can do is by reacting positively to every inconvenience on earth, rather than complaining about them. Simple sacrifices like that. Never complain. That simple practice alone, changes your whole outlook. Father Sullivan's little book is among the most life-changing I've encountered. Another 'penance' comes from St. Therese Lisieux, who is considered one of the Church's greatest saints, and is a Doctor of the Church because of her doctrinal contributions. Her advice is to never miss an opportunity to be charitable to anyone and everyone you encounter in a day. This could be a smile or a kind word. You have dozens of opportunities a day to do this. You can do it five times on a trip to the supermarket.

You can also do acts of self-denial. Don't give in to an opportunity to comment negatively on someone or something. And suffering doesn't have to be this big onerous thing. It can be little things. If you like soy sauce on your rice, leave it out. On a short trip in the car on a cold day, leave off the heat. If you are faced with an unpleasant task, immediately grab it by the horns and embrace it. Overpower it. If you would love a soda right now, have a glass of water instead. If you are alone on a driving trip, say the Rosary or some other prayer. All these things will put you in a cheerful energetic frame of mind to where you are just bursting to do for others.

The Bible teaches that the dead go to a realm called "Hades".........to await final judgment, the unrighteous to one section of Hades those who have lived righteously to another section of Hades called "Paradise" -- Luke 16:26-31(theif on the cross went to paradise because Jesus had been given the authority to forgive sin by the Father). (Luke 16). The Bible also teaches us that its impossible for the dead in Hades to actually contact the living.....as Hades will not give up its dead until the final judgment that is based upon the Books (the Holy Sciptures) and the Book of life where one's deeds while living are compared with the content of the words Jesus taught (Rev. 20:13)

Jesus Himself......while IN THE SPIRIT (while His body rested in the grave for 3 days) went and preached to the souls in Hades -- 1 Peter 3:18-19. Hades nor Hell is mentioned by Jesus when He forgave the sins of the theif and declared "today you will be with be in Paradise". -- Luke 23:43 But its clear that the unrighteous rich man in (Luke 16) could look at the souls who were in the bosom of Abraham (is Father Abraham resting in torment or paradise?) .......thus, Hades is separated into 2 compartments as defined by Jesus in Luke 16.......2 compartments were it is impossible for one to traverse to the other.

Only Jesus has ever preached to the souls in Hades. You can't pray to the dead or for the dead. Jesus taught in the parable of the virigins awaiting the bride groom (church waiting on Jesus to return) -- Matthew 25:1, there is the clear lesson that after these virgins went to sleep (sleep defined as death in Dan. 12:2, 1 Thess. 4:13)........there is no further chance/opportunity for prepartion for eternity........after you die (Matt. 25:10)


Challenge: Find in the entire 66 books of the N.T. cannon any authorization to pray to the dead or for the dead. It does not exist, thus, the RCC claims it is authorized, not by the word of God but by the Apocrpatic book (not part of the canon) of tradition established by man made decree ( ll Macccabess 12:46).....these books are based upon JEWISH TRADITION.....not scriptures found in the Word of God.

 

[Mashmont]

The Bible teaches that the dead go to a realm called "Hades".........to await final judgment, the unrighteous to one section of Hades those who have lived righteously to another section of Hades called "Paradise" -- Luke 16:26-31(theif on the cross went to paradise because Jesus had been given the authority to forgive sin by the Father). (Luke 16). The Bible also teaches us that its impossible for the dead in Hades to actually contact the living.....as Hades will not give up its dead until the final judgment that is based upon the Books (the Holy Sciptures) and the Book of life where one's deeds while living are compared with the content of the words Jesus taught (Rev. 20:13)

Jesus Himself......while IN THE SPIRIT (while His body rested in the grave for 3 days) went and preached to the souls in Hades -- 1 Peter 3:18-19. Hades nor Hell is mentioned by Jesus when He forgave the sins of the theif and declared "today you will be with be in Paradise". -- Luke 23:43 But its clear that the unrighteous rich man in (Luke 16) could look at the souls who were in the bosom of Abraham (is Father Abraham resting in torment or paradise?) .......thus, Hades is separated into 2 compartments as defined by Jesus in Luke 16.......2 compartments were it is impossible for one to traverse to the other.

Only Jesus has ever preached to the souls in Hades. You can't pray to the dead or for the dead. Jesus taught in the parable of the virigins awaiting the bride groom (church waiting on Jesus to return) -- Matthew 25:1, there is the clear lesson that after these virgins went to sleep (sleep defined as death in Dan. 12:2, 1 Thess. 4:13)........there is no further chance/opportunity for prepartion for eternity........after you die (Matt. 25:10)


Challenge: Find in the entire 66 books of the N.T. cannon any authorization to pray to the dead or for the dead. It does not exist, thus, the RCC claims it is authorized, not by the word of God but by the Apocrpatic book (not part of the canon) of tradition established by man made decree ( ll Macccabess 12:46).....these books are based upon JEWISH TRADITION.....not scriptures found in the Word of God.

There are a number of reasons Maccabbees wasn't in the Jewish bible, mostly political. The early Christians didn't want to incite Rome with reference to a successful revolt by the Jews. But I referenced several other books from the OT which form the basis of purgatory according to great saints and doctors of the Catholic Church.
There have been numerous apparitions which have exhorted praying for the dead in addition. And as we know, the dead have appeared to the living in Scripture itself, specifically at the Transfiguration of Jesus, in which Moses and the prophet Elijah appeared.

Again, few are fit for direct entry into heaven when they die; for most, a cleansing a purification is needed. This is why the concept of Purgatory makes excellent sense.

 

[Jaxson]

My non-Catholic Christian friends believe people either go to Heaven or Hell. They don't believe in Purgatory. But in addition to being biblical (Maccabees, Luke, Corinthians, Timothy, Hebrews), the concept of Purgatory makes perfect sense. Only the perfect can be admitted to Heaven, and few die in a state that approaches perfection. So for those who followed God's teaching, but still have a ways to go, it's logical they would need to be purified. This purification MUST be unpleasant. We all know that facing unpleasant or difficult tasks or conditions on earth makes us tougher and better and more cheerful people. So it's logical purgatory is what we need for perfection.

My faith teaches that self-denial and penance are ways to avoid purgatory. Sacrifices on earth are far less painful than those we have to endure in Purgatory, so the best path is to do what we can on earth. Some have criticized Mother Teresa for her praise of suffering, but her misconstrued words were in the context I'm talking about, of improving yourself and working towards perfection.

Father Paul Sullivan, who authored a work in the 1940s called "How to Avoid Purgatory" gives a lot of ways we can go straight to heaven. One of the 'sufferings' we can do is by reacting positively to every inconvenience on earth, rather than complaining about them. Simple sacrifices like that. Never complain. That simple practice alone, changes your whole outlook. Father Sullivan's little book is among the most life-changing I've encountered. Another 'penance' comes from St. Therese Lisieux, who is considered one of the Church's greatest saints, and is a Doctor of the Church because of her doctrinal contributions. Her advice is to never miss an opportunity to be charitable to anyone and everyone you encounter in a day. This could be a smile or a kind word. You have dozens of opportunities a day to do this. You can do it five times on a trip to the supermarket.

You can also do acts of self-denial. Don't give in to an opportunity to comment negatively on someone or something. And suffering doesn't have to be this big onerous thing. It can be little things. If you like soy sauce on your rice, leave it out. On a short trip in the car on a cold day, leave off the heat. If you are faced with an unpleasant task, immediately grab it by the horns and embrace it. Overpower it. If you would love a soda right now, have a glass of water instead. If you are alone on a driving trip, say the Rosary or some other prayer. All these things will put you in a cheerful energetic frame of mind to where you are just bursting to do for others.

I thought that giving the church money would do the trick. I guess I got screwed.

 

[nomadic5]

My non-Catholic Christian friends believe people either go to Heaven or Hell. They don't believe in Purgatory. But in addition to being biblical (Maccabees, Luke, Corinthians, Timothy, Hebrews), the concept of Purgatory makes perfect sense. Only the perfect can be admitted to Heaven, and few die in a state that approaches perfection. So for those who followed God's teaching, but still have a ways to go, it's logical they would need to be purified. This purification MUST be unpleasant. We all know that facing unpleasant or difficult tasks or conditions on earth makes us tougher and better and more cheerful people. So it's logical purgatory is what we need for perfection.

My faith teaches that self-denial and penance are ways to avoid purgatory. Sacrifices on earth are far less painful than those we have to endure in Purgatory, so the best path is to do what we can on earth. Some have criticized Mother Teresa for her praise of suffering, but her misconstrued words were in the context I'm talking about, of improving yourself and working towards perfection.

Father Paul Sullivan, who authored a work in the 1940s called "How to Avoid Purgatory" gives a lot of ways we can go straight to heaven. One of the 'sufferings' we can do is by reacting positively to every inconvenience on earth, rather than complaining about them. Simple sacrifices like that. Never complain. That simple practice alone, changes your whole outlook. Father Sullivan's little book is among the most life-changing I've encountered. Another 'penance' comes from St. Therese Lisieux, who is considered one of the Church's greatest saints, and is a Doctor of the Church because of her doctrinal contributions. Her advice is to never miss an opportunity to be charitable to anyone and everyone you encounter in a day. This could be a smile or a kind word. You have dozens of opportunities a day to do this. You can do it five times on a trip to the supermarket.

You can also do acts of self-denial. Don't give in to an opportunity to comment negatively on someone or something. And suffering doesn't have to be this big onerous thing. It can be little things. If you like soy sauce on your rice, leave it out. On a short trip in the car on a cold day, leave off the heat. If you are faced with an unpleasant task, immediately grab it by the horns and embrace it. Overpower it. If you would love a soda right now, have a glass of water instead. If you are alone on a driving trip, say the Rosary or some other prayer. All these things will put you in a cheerful energetic frame of mind to where you are just bursting to do for others.

I agree except for that cheerful thing. I can do all those things u suggest and have done them. But I have sufferings that, well, it's a long story but put it this way: No one ever accused me of having great patience. I have gone through things that make me this way and yes, I know, you can overcome some of what you've been through (the ill effects). But I guess what I'm saying is it isn't always as easy as your words imply.

I read this one book some time ago that said something to the effect that it is good to inconvenience yourself (as you mention) but it is even better to just accept the misfortunes and miseries that come your way without you asking for them. Even that is not easy for some of us.

 

[kjw47]

My non-Catholic Christian friends believe people either go to Heaven or Hell. They don't believe in Purgatory. But in addition to being biblical (Maccabees, Luke, Corinthians, Timothy, Hebrews), the concept of Purgatory makes perfect sense. Only the perfect can be admitted to Heaven, and few die in a state that approaches perfection. So for those who followed God's teaching, but still have a ways to go, it's logical they would need to be purified. This purification MUST be unpleasant. We all know that facing unpleasant or difficult tasks or conditions on earth makes us tougher and better and more cheerful people. So it's logical purgatory is what we need for perfection.

My faith teaches that self-denial and penance are ways to avoid purgatory. Sacrifices on earth are far less painful than those we have to endure in Purgatory, so the best path is to do what we can on earth. Some have criticized Mother Teresa for her praise of suffering, but her misconstrued words were in the context I'm talking about, of improving yourself and working towards perfection.

Father Paul Sullivan, who authored a work in the 1940s called "How to Avoid Purgatory" gives a lot of ways we can go straight to heaven. One of the 'sufferings' we can do is by reacting positively to every inconvenience on earth, rather than complaining about them. Simple sacrifices like that. Never complain. That simple practice alone, changes your whole outlook. Father Sullivan's little book is among the most life-changing I've encountered. Another 'penance' comes from St. Therese Lisieux, who is considered one of the Church's greatest saints, and is a Doctor of the Church because of her doctrinal contributions. Her advice is to never miss an opportunity to be charitable to anyone and everyone you encounter in a day. This could be a smile or a kind word. You have dozens of opportunities a day to do this. You can do it five times on a trip to the supermarket.

You can also do acts of self-denial. Don't give in to an opportunity to comment negatively on someone or something. And suffering doesn't have to be this big onerous thing. It can be little things. If you like soy sauce on your rice, leave it out. On a short trip in the car on a cold day, leave off the heat. If you are faced with an unpleasant task, immediately grab it by the horns and embrace it. Overpower it. If you would love a soda right now, have a glass of water instead. If you are alone on a driving trip, say the Rosary or some other prayer. All these things will put you in a cheerful energetic frame of mind to where you are just bursting to do for others.

Those teachings are false. Ecclesiastes9:5--The dead know nothing at all)--They are in the grave until the resurrection which doesnt occur until after Armageddon.

 

[nomadic5]

yes i know. So are the last two chapters of Daniel. Ever read those? I like maccabees but i also understand why it was left out.

I hesitate to say this but most catholics do not know the difference in the two bibles. nor do protestants for that matter.

The most reliable Bible is the Douay-Rheims Bible, the one St Jerome scrupulously translated--in a non-interpretative way--from the original languages Christ and the 12 spoke which means that if a certain passage was difficult to fully understand once translated to the new language, he left it alone because he didn't want to put what could have been his own merely-subjective interpretation on it.

 

[nomadic5]

Those teachings are false. Ecclesiastes9:5--The dead know nothing at all)--They are in the grave until the resurrection which doesnt occur until after Armageddon.

that just means they know nothing of what is going on on Earth anymore

 

[kjw47]

that just means they know nothing of what is going on on Earth anymore

Sheol( Hebrew) = Hades(Greek) = the grave--Eccl 9:10-- All that your hands find to do, do with your very power, for there is no work, nor devising, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to where you are going. Psalms on the day of ones death-ALL thought stops.

 

[nomadic5]

macabees isnt in the bible. it should not be.

who says? You?

It was the Catholic Church (the real one, not the fake francis one) who put together the books of the New Testament in the 300s. they decided which books would be included, which ones not. Protestants give unwitting assent to that decision every time they mention the Bible, even though their own Bibles do not include all those Books.

 

[nomadic5]

Sheol( Hebrew) = Hades(Greek) = the grave--Eccl 9:10-- All that your hands find to do, do with your very power, for there is no work, nor devising, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to where you are going. Psalms on the day of ones death-ALL thought stops.

I don't trust anyone's knowledge of such things as Greek and Hebrew unless that person is in the true Church founded by Christ Himself and even then, not all who call themselves true Christians are that. So I trust the Church that has dealt with this kind of knowledge/interpretation of Scripture for thousands of years

 

[nomadic5]

bible verse?

St Paul: "It is necessary that we undero many hardships in order to enter Heaven"

"Work out your salvation with fear and trembling"

Phil 2:12

(that doesn't sound like fun to me. You?)

 

[kjw47]

I don't trust anyone's knowledge of such things as Greek and Hebrew unless that person is in the true Church founded by Christ Himself and even then, not all who call themselves true Christians are that. So I trust the Church that has dealt with this kind of knowledge/interpretation of Scripture for thousands of years

Do you mean Catholicism- the religion that has had over1750 years to learn bible truth, yet dont even know simple bible milk? Like this very simple truth--No Israelite male had long hair 1Cor 11:14-- it was a dishonor to do so. God did have a special covenant with the Nazarites( Samson was one) not Nazarenes like Jesus was. So for centuries in their darkness have portrayed Jesus bringing dishonor to his Fathers name in their pictures of him.
The OT condemns the usage of statues, icons, graven images, yet your churches and homes are filled with all 3.
There is plenty more.

 

[Mashmont]

Do you mean Catholicism- the religion that has had over1750 years to learn bible truth, yet dont even know simple bible milk? Like this very simple truth--No Israelite male had long hair 1Cor 11:14-- it was a dishonor to do so. God did have a special covenant with the Nazarites( Samson was one) not Nazarenes like Jesus was. So for centuries in their darkness have portrayed Jesus bringing dishonor to his Fathers name in their pictures of him.
The OT condemns the usage of statues, icons, graven images, yet your churches and homes are filled with all 3.
There is plenty more.

Those things were worshipped in the OT. The RCC doesn't worship statues or icons. I know this, because I am a practicing Catholic. Those are simply focal points and reminders. I have explained this dozens of times to protestants. If you question my explanation, you aren't interested in understanding; you are interested in maintaining your prejudices.

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

Itvi

My non-Catholic Christian friends believe people either go to Heaven or Hell. They don't believe in Purgatory. But in addition to being biblical (Maccabees, Luke, Corinthians, Timothy, Hebrews), the concept of Purgatory makes perfect sense. Only the perfect can be admitted to Heaven, and few die in a state that approaches perfection. So for those who followed God's teaching, but still have a ways to go, it's logical they would need to be purified. This purification MUST be unpleasant. We all know that facing unpleasant or difficult tasks or conditions on earth makes us tougher and better and more cheerful people. So it's logical purgatory is what we need for perfection.

My faith teaches that self-denial and penance are ways to avoid purgatory. Sacrifices on earth are far less painful than those we have to endure in Purgatory, so the best path is to do what we can on earth. Some have criticized Mother Teresa for her praise of suffering, but her misconstrued words were in the context I'm talking about, of improving yourself and working towards perfection.

Father Paul Sullivan, who authored a work in the 1940s called "How to Avoid Purgatory" gives a lot of ways we can go straight to heaven. One of the 'sufferings' we can do is by reacting positively to every inconvenience on earth, rather than complaining about them. Simple sacrifices like that. Never complain. That simple practice alone, changes your whole outlook. Father Sullivan's little book is among the most life-changing I've encountered. Another 'penance' comes from St. Therese Lisieux, who is considered one of the Church's greatest saints, and is a Doctor of the Church because of her doctrinal contributions. Her advice is to never miss an opportunity to be charitable to anyone and everyone you encounter in a day. This could be a smile or a kind word. You have dozens of opportunities a day to do this. You can do it five times on a trip to the supermarket.

You can also do acts of self-denial. Don't give in to an opportunity to comment negatively on someone or something. And suffering doesn't have to be this big onerous thing. It can be little things. If you like soy sauce on your rice, leave it out. On a short trip in the car on a cold day, leave off the heat. If you are faced with an unpleasant task, immediately grab it by the horns and embrace it. Overpower it. If you would love a soda right now, have a glass of water instead. If you are alone on a driving trip, say the Rosary or some other prayer. All these things will put you in a cheerful energetic frame of mind to where you are just bursting to do for others.

It is absolutely NOT biblical. Neither in the concept of heaven and hell as reward or punishment.

The wicked will be ASHES on this earth and the RESURRECTED saints will inherit the EARTH.

 

[Mashmont]

Itvi

It is absolutely NOT biblical. Neither in the concept of heaven and hell as reward or punishment.

I mean, how do you argue with something that is so blatantly false? The concept of Heaven and hell as reward and punishment are all over the Bible.