Physics and why LWIR can not warm oceans... Info for a Clueless Senator Markey and alarmists..

[Wuwei]

didn't SSDD state they needed liquid helium? You said but not the first one, and then post up the first one showing liquid helium. Too funny. dude. just sitting here and laughing at that one.

You haven't been following all the text. Liquid helium at atmospheric pressure was used in the first CMB experiment. I said that several times. I never ever said it wasn't. The thing you should sit there laughing at is the fact that SSDD thought the temperature of low pressure liquid helium was used in the first experiment. OK so now have your laugh at him.

 

[Wuwei]

As the east coast prepares for the warmest Christmas Eve ever, the prequel promises to be warmer still. Today, Washington, D.C., is expected to break existing high temperature records by a full 10 degrees.

No dreaming of a white Christmas there. Christmas in Florida is predicted at 86 degrees.

 

[TyroneSlothrop]

 

[Crick]

SSDD, it is quite obvious that you've never had a class in thermodynamics. A dozen people here who have, have told you repeatedly that your interpretations are utter nonsense. Where do you get off telling ANYONE they don't know what they're talking about re thermodynamics? You're the one here, out of EVERYBODY here, who doesn't know what the **** they are talking about.

Still waiting to hear how the CMB got past the 300K reflector dish

 

[Wuwei]

SSDD, it is quite obvious that you've never had a class in thermodynamics. A dozen people here who have, have told you repeatedly that your interpretations are utter nonsense. Where do you get off telling ANYONE they don't know what they're talking about re thermodynamics? You're the one here, out of EVERYBODY here, who doesn't know what the **** they are talking about.

It isn't just the people here; every physicist for the past 100 years or so would say he doesn't know what the **** he is talking about. He knows that, but he likes to play games.

Still waiting to hear how the CMB got past the 300K reflector dish

Yes, we are still waiting for him to man up, and not just come up with another distraction.

 

[Crick]

Radiation Heat Transfer

Net Radiation Loss Rate
If an hot object is radiating energy to its cooler surroundings the net radiation heat loss rate can be expressed as

q = ε σ (Th4 - Tc4) Ac

[q = ε σ Th4 Ac - ε σ Tc4 Ac] my addition to illustrate the reality of two way flow

where

Th = hot body absolute temperature (K)

Tc = cold surroundings absolute temperature (K)

Ac = area of the object (m2)
*****************************************************
SSDD, do you understand what the term "NET" means?

 

[jc456]

Of course they don't and yet you suggested something about refrigerator thermodynamics as if the physical laws were different for refrigerators...just one more example of the while topic being so far over your head that you can't even understand what is being said to you.

Nope, you are saying that the first law is denying accepted concepts of radiation physics.

Here is the first law of thermodynamics:
blah blah blah

So what? You are confused again. We are talking about the second law.

Who ever said that they did? Are you really this ignorant on the topic? Do you get that matter "radiates" energy? Where did you get the idea that anyone ever proposed the idea of nuclear refrigerators? Just so that people who are watching this can see how badly you misunderstand this topic...I am going to bring the whole statement in question so that perhaps they can figure out how you made the jump to nuclear refrigerators.

C'mon. Quit the lying. That's your idea not mine. Now you want to talk about nuclear refrigerators!!! The term “nuclear” in the context of energy refers to atomic energy. You don't know that?

.it states that heat won't move from a colder body to a warmer body without doing work to make it happen

That is correct.

and it goes on to state that energy won't move spontaneously (that means by itself) from a cold object to a warm object.

That is only in the case of refrigerators. A counterexample is that thermal radiation energy can can move from an object at any temperature to an object at any other temperature. If you disagree please cite a source on radiation physics not refrigerator phyisics.

Then it goes on to say that because of this, we can't produce a perfect refrigerator...or a heat pump...or air conditioner...It is the second law that explains why we can't build these perfect appliances....not that the second law somehow applies to everything but refrigerators or refrigerators and nothing else...and where you got the idea about nuclear refrigerators, is beyond me.....energy, and heat are forms of radiation...and the second law is all about radiation and where it spontaneously will go and where it spontaneously won't go.

Yes as I said the whole section was about refrigeration. That last sentence was not intended to involve radiation.

I haven't quoted two laws off thermodynamics...I have only quoted one...it goes like this..Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object...

The second sentence is not part of the first law. It does not apply to radiation.

And it isn't a refrigerator site you idiot...it is from the physics department at Georgia State University...they only mentioned refrigerators in an attempt to put the second law of thermodynamics into a real world context....The second law applies to all forms of energy

Then why is it titled Second Law: Refrigerator

If you think that radiant energy cannot move from a cold object to a hot object, what is there to keep the photons of the cold object from striking the hot object. I heard others talk about your belief in smart photons, but I want to hear it from you.

"That is only in the case of refrigerators. A counterexample is that thermal radiation energy can can move from an object at any temperature to an object at any other temperature. If you disagree please cite a source on radiation physics not refrigerator phyisics."

Please post evidence of such a thing. Now you're out there bubba.

 

[Billy_Bob]

Black body radiation can be detected with a radio telescope via resonance frequencies.

Only for temperatures so low the EM frequency gets into the radio band. Radio receivers do NOT respond to IR.

You really dont know shit, do you. Do you have even an inkling of what a resonate response is? 2nd order wave component? 3rd order wave component? All radiated energy creates sub bands that are both higher in frequency and lower in frequency of the given wave. These are more commonly known as REFLECTIONS. Your totally ignorant of basic wave prolongations and physics.

 

[mamooth]

You really dont know shit, do you. Do you have even an inkling of what a resonate response is? 2nd order wave component? 3rd order wave component? All radiated energy creates sub bands that are both higher in frequency and lower in frequency of the given wave. These are more commonly known as REFLECTIONS. Your totally ignorant of basic wave prolongations and physics.

And if we realign the alternate ambient muon flux coupler of the ionic spatial matrix, it will result in an asymmetrical flux domain that will create a modulated trans-warp dampening singularity.

See Billy? We can write bullshit technobabble too.

 

[Crick]

Reflections? Reflections?!? They're ******* harmonics you stupid dipshit My specialty is underwater acoustics. All radiated energy does NOT produce harmonics and harmonics were not required in the detection of the CMB. Your babbling nonsense is more evidence that you have no knowledge of basic physics.

 

[Wuwei]

"That is only in the case of refrigerators. A counterexample is that thermal radiation energy can can move from an object at any temperature to an object at any other temperature. If you disagree please cite a source on radiation physics not refrigerator phyisics."

Please post evidence of such a thing. Now you're out there bubba.

I already did. The cold CMB at 2.7 K can hit a radio antenna 300 degrees warmer. That has been show to have happened.

 

[Wuwei]

You really dont know shit, do you. Do you have even an inkling of what a resonate response is? 2nd order wave component? 3rd order wave component? All radiated energy creates sub bands that are both higher in frequency and lower in frequency of the given wave. These are more commonly known as REFLECTIONS. Your totally ignorant of basic wave prolongations and physics.

You are kidding right? You do know that harmonics are created from modulation or a nonlinear process and not a tuned resonant system right? You do know that radiated energy creates sub-bands only when they are frequency or amplitude modulated right? You do know that reflections are a linear process and do not create sub-bands right? If you are talking about the CMB, none of what you say makes one bit of sense.

If you are kidding, you have to realize people here will think your serious since you don't have a good reputation for science understanding. People like mamooth and others would then rightfully mock you. If you are serious, then you are quite a sad case.

 

[Crick]

He is still seriously attempting to push the blatant lie that he has "a degree in atmospheric physics". You're absolutely right that none of what he says makes one bit of sense. I'm not certain why we're even discussing this point. The shite about cold can't radiate to warm comes from SSDD's insanely twisted interpretations of basic thermo. The detector technology (thermopiles vs CCDs} came from FlaCalTenn, the lab tech. What stick Billy Boy has in this fire I haven't a clue.

I'd say he grew his spiel from SSDD's comment: The detector of CMB was a radio-telescope, which like a radio tuner tunes in different resonance frequencies of an antenna which produces an electrical signal, which is amplified into a recording over frequency or a spectrum.

First, for SSDD, by bringing that antenna into your description you have admitted that the 2.7k CMB can hit a 300K target. Second, actual radio telescopes don't use resonant antennas (like a log-log or a yagi or folded dipole) but large dishes, like Arecibo or Goldstone or the VLA. Dishes have upper limits - half lambda - but they don't resonate. What the detector is doing is another story but it will be constructed to avoid resonance as much as humanly possible. People like receivers with flat responses over wide bands. They do like to be able to tune the dogshit out of them, but they want that response to be the same anywhere in the receiver's band. That means, as a whole, outside the tuner, the receiver doesn't resonate and has a very low Q. It's the tuner that does the resonating.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

As the east coast prepares for the warmest Christmas Eve ever, the prequel promises to be warmer still. Today, Washington, D.C., is expected to break existing high temperature records by a full 10 degrees.

So the AGWCult is on record that the new normal winter in NY is 65-70 degrees, or are they once again attributing whatever top story is on the Weather Channel to AGW?

 

[Crick]

Frank, you need to stop lying about what other people say. No one said that was "the new normal". Try to get this through your head. AGW does not mean an end to variation - an end to WEATHER - it means the climate - the long term average of weather - is going to get warmer and that extra warmth is going to make the long term average of that weather more energetic. And the ocean will soon be lapping at your front door and when you scream and cry about the cost of moving since all the insurance companies will have reneged on any coverage, you may find that your government has been listening to you and citizens like you and is unable to help. Won't that be... special. But, hey, those oil company stocks will still be worth...maybe the paper they're printed on.

 

[Wuwei]

He is still seriously attempting to push the blatant lie that he has "a degree in atmospheric physics". You're absolutely right that none of what he says makes one bit of sense. I'm not certain why we're even discussing this point. The shite about cold can't radiate to warm comes from SSDD's insanely twisted interpretations of basic thermo. The detector technology (thermopiles vs CCDs} came from FlaCalTenn, the lab tech. What stick Billy Boy has in this fire I haven't a clue.

What SSDD and his minions do is look up science sites for scientific words and put those words into sentences that make no sense. The don't understand that written science is different than written novels.

I'd say he grew his spiel from SSDD's comment: The detector of CMB was a radio-telescope, which like a radio tuner tunes in different resonance frequencies of an antenna which produces an electrical signal, which is amplified into a recording over frequency or a spectrum.

First, for SSDD, by bringing that antenna into your description you have admitted that the 2.7k CMB can hit a 300K target. Second, actual radio telescopes don't use resonant antennas (like a log-log or a yagi or folded dipole) but large dishes, like Arecibo or Goldstone or the VLA. Dishes have upper limits - half lambda - but they don't resonate.

What the detector is doing is another story but it will be constructed to avoid resonance as much as humanly possible. People like receivers with flat responses over wide bands. They do like to be able to tune the dogshit out of them, but they want that response to be the same anywhere in the receiver's band. That means, as a whole, outside the tuner, the receiver doesn't resonate and has a very low Q. It's the tuner that does the resonating.

Yes, I agree. It seems SSDD is referring to high Q masers which are tuned to reduce noise. The CMB radiation is sampled at several frequencies to get the black-body curve and determine the temperature. He seems to attempt a screwy back-extrapolation that the CMB itself is a set of high Q frequencies.

However all bets are off for the majority of systems that use bolometers. These directly absorb thermal energy, so there is no high Q in the system at all. For that SSDD has to resort to the fact that many of them would use pumped helium at a lower boiling point of around 2 deg K to reduce noise, etc. etc. in order to avoid his other stupid oversights.

His tactic is to scatter-shoot his portfolio of nonsense sentences or nonsense ideas to the various types of radio-telescopes, all to avoid having to face the terrible fact that no matter what, the CMB must hit the warm dish. These guys just don't realize how silly and stupid they sound to those who are familiar with the science.

 

[Crick]

To my knowledge, SSDD is unique in his failure to understand the idea of net radiative flow. He's adamant. The absurdity of his contention has been demonstrated to him a dozen different ways but, of course, he cannot back down now. When I (and others) asked him sometime back what mechanism was throttling IR emissions from some piece of matter facing a (corr) hotter piece of matter on the other side of the universe, his only answer was that "we" don't know and it is something we will "probably never know".

 

[Wuwei]

To my knowledge, SSDD is unique in his failure to understand the idea of net radiative flow.

Yes, uniquely nuts. But he is a mentor to a number of others (you know who you are) who give "agree" or "winner" ratings to many of his ridiculous posts. It seems that if SSDD puts in enough scientific words, (some made up and the rest misused,) he will get applause from his mindless minions who have no idea what SSDD is trying to say. Of course SSDD has no idea himself.

His disciple minions often try to emulate him by making scientific sounding sentences themselves, but the results are quite amusingly nuts.

 

[SSDD]

SSDD, it is quite obvious that you've never had a class in thermodynamics. A dozen people here who have, have told you repeatedly that your interpretations are utter nonsense. Where do you get off telling ANYONE they don't know what they're talking about re thermodynamics? You're the one here, out of EVERYBODY here, who doesn't know what the **** they are talking about.

Once again...here is the statement of the second law...Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object......

So I ask again...what have I said that is inconsistent with that statement? What have I said that would require any interpretation of that statement? What have I said that deviates from that statement in the slightest?

Answer the question crick...you know as well as I that my position is that statement...yours on the other hand requires interpretation and outright rewriting.

 

[SSDD]

Radiation Heat Transfer

Net Radiation Loss Rate
If an hot object is radiating energy to its cooler surroundings the net radiation heat loss rate can be expressed as

q = ε σ (Th4 - Tc4) Ac

[q = ε σ Th4 Ac - ε σ Tc4 Ac] my addition to illustrate the reality of two way flow

where

Th = hot body absolute temperature (K)

Tc = cold surroundings absolute temperature (K)

Ac = area of the object (m2)
*****************************************************
SSDD, do you understand what the term "NET" means?

Your second equation is not how SB wrote the equation.....applying the distributive property does not alter the fact that the energy exchange is a one way street...